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[Kinthalis]

First off, wasn't Ellie like 12 when she got close to her friend? That;s hardly an age at which one's sexual orientation is set.

Experimentation is a natural part of sexual growth and identity. The best we could say about Ellie is that she MIGHT be gay or bi. (of course, she IS someone's fictional character so I suppose if the writer has officially said that yep, she's gay, then she is - it's just that in the game, narrative-wise, this isn't so cut and dry).

Second of all, I do tend to hate the notion that you can't have certain character archetypes just because, even though when we have them they do tend to be cliched, I still think we should probably wait until the game comes out to judge for ourselves.

I mean, there ARE flamboyant gay men, they do exist... But maybe the character will be interesting in other ways?

 

[TypeO]

Sometimes I feel like the only people that complain about gays in video games are gays (or LGBT or whatever lable you give yourselfs nowadays). Also, you know, Louis said it best 'as long as you can't make fun of gay people, they cannot be accepted as equal'.

I really feel like you are overreacting here. Yes, the villan may get some mean remarks about his sexuality, but what about fat people? Midgets? Trailer trash? Foreigners? Rich people? Poor People? etc. etc. People can laugh at everything, except at the group they consider themselves a part of.

Maybe it is because I am not from the states, but I don't get the need of labeling everything and everyone, btw.

 

[Nipo]

I think we should wait to find out what the character's sexuality is, if it's even mentioned at all, before having a discussion condemning the game to being problematic.

I agree. I like wearing purples and pinks and hate it when people try to infer my sexuality based on what I am wearing or hairstyle.

 

[Dinjooh]

Holy shit that's what I was getting at. It'll be handled like it was in Skyfall, which by OPs own admission, was handled well. It won't be handled AS well considering it's a video game, but alas.

I want to go home.

Didn't really get your first reply then because of his concern that:

"I don't think it'll be like Skyfall, where an LGBT villain was accepted and regarded generally as a "good" villain, because the film industry has been around a lot longer than the gaming industry and as such has a much wider, much more diverse audience. Films are already well established as an artistic medium.

My apologies.

 

[stupei]

No, because I'm an adult.

You don't have to agree with someone else's opinion in order to respect it. A lot of people learn that by the time they're adults!

 

[Kinthalis]

I agree. I like wearing purples and pinks and hate it when people try to infer my sexuality based on what I am wearing or hairstyle.

Exactly, maybe you're just Metro-sexual

 

[Garrett Hawke]

First off, wasn't Ellie like 12 when she got close to her friend? That;s hardly an age at which one's sexual orientation is set.

Experimentation is a natural part of sexual growth and identity. The best we could say about Ellie is that she MIGHT be gay or bi. (of course, she IS someone's fictional character so I suppose if the writer has officially said that yep, she's gay, then she is - it's just that in the game, narrative-wise, this isn't so cut and dry).

Second of all, I do tend to hate the notion that you can't have certain character archetypes just because, even though when we have them they do tend to be cliched, I still think we should probably wait until the game comes out to judge for ourselves.

I mean, there ARE flamboyant gay men, they do exist... But maybe the character will be interesting in other ways?

I started to realise when I wa 11/12 that I was gay. And I still think I am, so...
If they're old enough to explore heterosexuality they're old enough to explore homosexuality and others.

 

[WonderCheese]

Nope, not concerned in the least.

 

[ultratruman]

Being worried that people are going to hate gays after playing Far Cry 4 is like saying Breaking Bad might make people hate cancer patients.

The notion that adults sincerely hate fictional villains is just naive. If anything they often make the most interesting, resonant and popular characters.

 

[Turin Turambar]

From the impressions, it seems like Far Cry 4's villain might be gay. Horribly stereotypical judgement, but he dresses, looks and sounds like a gay stereotype. And that worries me.

Sorry, but what?

What part makes it gay? The part where he sounds crazy? or the part where he stabs a soldier with a pen?
It could be argued, and that's stretching, about the clothes and hair. But I think they are going for a distinctive look for the bad guy, not necessarily "gay".

 

[mutatedwombat]

In my view the villains in Far Cry are the strongest characters. I'd rather identify with Vaas Montenegro in Far Cry 3 than the bland and unlikeable protagonist.
I think OP is hypersensitive (albeit understandably), and should simply enjoy the well crafted melodrama for what it is, and not as some kind of veiled anti-minority social propaganda, which it isn't.

 

[molnizzle]

Wait, so you have to be straight in order to be a bad guy in a game?

Apparently.

It's so hard to not use gay stereotypes, you guys. SO HARD. It just happens by accident and they can't help it.

Read:

But even if he fits a stereotype, are you saying that people sometimes don't fit their stereotype?

 

[starchild excalibur]

No. I think oddly enough by having the antagonist *possibly* be gay, it means that the character will be featured in a way that makes him a more well rounded, more fully developed character than just a one-off NPC or even a relatively bland main character (like in FC3). The solution to combatting homophobia isn't restricting the ways in which gay characters can be depicted, but rather in making sure that in whatever role they play (good, bad, hero, villain) they are defined by more than just their sexuality.

The villain in FC3 (not the final villain, but the one on the cover) was considered one of the more interesting, memorable and "cool" characters in the game. If they do the same thing with this character (again, who may or may not be gay), I think it could actually end up being a good thing. Idiots may confuse his evil goals with his sexuality, but those morons will have a bias anyway. If he's written well, the rest of us may easily end up seeing his homosexuality as just another one of the several characteristics that define this interesting character.

 

[T.M. MacReady]

Impossible to have an informed conversation on this subject when everything is just conjecture and stereotyping. "He looks gay so that means he is gay and that upsets me because gays should only be depicted in a positive light"...which is an absurd argument when you get down to it. Let's just play the damn game and have our conversation then, shall we?

Couldn't agree more.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Shouldn't we wait to see if he's a well-written character before blasting it as homophobic? If he's a well written character, it shouldn't matter if he's a good guy, bad guy, mysterious stranger with unknown intentions ("What are ya buyin'?!") etc.

 

[Ahasverus]

I'm concerned too, not because the villain may be gay, but because he looks like every gay stereotype out there. I'm NOT against gay villains, Bardem's role in the lastest Bond was A-M-A-Z-I-N-G, but I seriously, seeeeriously doubt ubisoft is tackling the concept with thoughtness.

But well, I'm ready to eat crow.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Most villains are stereotypical heterosexuals. Why can't you have a stereotypical homosexual? Or for that matter, why is it wrong to have a stereotypical anything? Nobody's insulting you, they're just making a game.

Oh, and isn't the lead designer of Far Cry 4 also openly gay?

 

[Kinthalis]

I started to realise when I wa 11/12 that I was gay. And I still think I am, so...
If they're old enough to explore heterosexuality they're old enough to explore homosexuality and others.

Uhm... that's exactly what I said. Experimentaiton is normal behaviour. That doesn't mean the person in question will be gay or identify as homesexual or even bi. It also doesn't mean they won't. It's called experimentaiton for a reason.

I know a couple of men and at least one woman who have had either very close/personal or even sexual experiences with same sex partners at a very early age who now have zero interest in the same sex. All fo theri fantasies and relationships are about the opposite sex. I've also known people who never had same sex relationships when young, and turned out to identify as homesexual as they became adults.

IT's all over the place is what I'm saying, and taking Ellie's experiences straight from the game alone, I don't think anyone, except Ellie, and then probably not until she was abit older) could say either way.

 

[Bizazedo]

While I did think of him as flamboyant, the villain didn't come off as gay or heterosexual to me. He came off as a badass. It was a great intro to him.

I did read your entire post, though, and I do get what you're trying to say. The thing is, though, is that IF he's gay....it's a bigger "win", as it were, having him be gay than to worry about the slings and arrows that'll add on to it when we do finally take him out.

Acceptance is won by constantly chipping away and being interjected into every day life. Wearing the resistance down until it's seen as normal.

 

[Fysi]

Edit - ignore double post

 

[BigDug13]

Yes. But too many people on GAF will claim that any attention paid to gross bias issues is POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD and that real equality means it's okay to shoot a gay dude in the head at the end of the game.

I somewhat agree, but if a game has said it's ok to shoot people in the head, what does the fact of whether or not that enemy is gay or not become relevant to shooting people in the head? Are gay people supposed to be put in a "don't shoot" category that video game children usually fall into? An enemy who's shooting at me has no sexual orientation relevance in my mind. They're dead. And it doesn't become a hate crime to shoot said enemy just because they happen to be gay, because I'm pretty sure their sexual orientation (or race or any other hate crime reason) is never the reason said person deserves to be shot in a video game.

 

[jediyoshi]

To give an example, if you were watching a film from the 50s, and all of the "good guys" were white men and women, but the villain was a stereotypical black man, would you consider that racism? If you would, then by the same logic, if you're playing a game in 2014 and all of the "good guys" are straight men and women but the villain is a stereotypical gay man, then it should be considered homophobia.

You realize this perspective is patently more offensive than the actual situations you've come up with, right?

 

[Kater]

Yeah, I'm also concerned about that if he really turns out to be queer, that there is a possibility that they go down the 'bad rapey gay villain' path.
(There already a lot of straight(?) guys who seem to be uncomfortable to hang out with gay guys, from my own experience.)
There is no need to fuel these (nonsensical) fears even more

 

[Pyronite]

Most villains are stereotypical heterosexuals. Why can't you have a stereotypical homosexual? Or for that matter, why is it wrong to have a stereotypical anything? Nobody's insulting you, they're just making a game.

Because stereotypical heterosexuals haven't been marginalized and murdered throughout history due to their heterosexual status?

Seriously, is this so hard to understand? There are still countries today where you are killed for homosexual relations. In England, you used to be drawn and quartered (your parts torn limb by limb while you were alive).

Stereotyping a historically repressed minority is something that we should seek to avoid.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

How does one "sound" gay? He's wearing a pink suit and has blond hair they aren't exactly gay stereotypes and his actions in the opening did not look very "stereotypically gay". He looked a Russian/Eastern European mobster to me, flashy and showy.

 

[Fysi]

What's with people thinking that he is gay, just becoz he is wearing a purple pants?
Have you ever thought that you are the one promoting this stereotype by making a thread about it.

If wearing purple trousers is something people associate with 'gayness', the British middle class have immediately bumped the UK to the top of the World's 'gayest' country.

Obviously, that is all tongue in cheek.

 

[Schweinehund]

Is he confirmed to be gay?

So far all I've seen is the cover to GI and the E3 video. I got the impression he was an eccentric rich guy with a cult of personality (similar to prince) rather than a stereotype of a gay guy.

 

[shinobi602]

I think we should wait to find out what the character's sexuality is, if it's even mentioned at all, before having a discussion condemning the game to being problematic.

I'm with this.

 

[todahawk]

I think we should wait to find out what the character's sexuality is, if it's even mentioned at all, before having a discussion condemning the game to being problematic.

Agreed. Way too little info to have a serious discussion.

 

[Snuggles]

I don't think the sexuality of the villain is a problem at all. I get your concern that some players might use this as a reason to hate him, but really, who care? That's on the dumbass players who feel that way. They're irrelevant. I think the problem is more that the characters appears* to fit right into the whole over-the-type, flamboyant stereotype of a gay man that's been the rule rather than the exception in videogames so far. It perpetuates the idea that gay people are weird, cartoonish outliers and not just normal people like "you" and I.

It's something that's worth discussing. It's not a threat to videogames as we know them, and it doesn't hurt to stop and acknowledge the viewpoint of someone different than you every now and then. Empathy is cool, dude.

*But I'll give Ubisoft some benefit of doubt until the game's actually out. At the moment I'm admittedly judging a book by it's cover.

 

[Always-honest]

No he was well done and you might have a problem.

 

[The Llama]

Is OP's ultimate point that we shouldn't have LGBT villains in games? Because thats ridiculous.

 

[Krusenstern]

Is he gay though?

I don't get it. Why would people hate him even more for being gay? I really dig the new villain. Many here on this forum like the new villain. Should have read the reaction during the Far Cry 4 trailer.

But even if he was an unlikable asshole, it really wouldn't change my perception towards gays. Just like I wouldn't judge all russians on the evil russian enemies I see in movies/games and so on.

You guys will always be hated by some uneducated people. But why should you care about them? The more reasonable people know not to interpret the characteristics of a gay video game character into other gays.

I think you're just overblowing this.

 

[sploatee]

Hey OP. I'm a full card carrying member of the LGBT conspiracy too and I liked reading your post...

...but I think you might be jumping the gun a bit on this one. You've made some pretty big assumptions about his presentation and even his character.

Also, if he's a flamboyant gay villain, so what? Those of us who like flamboyance will like him anyway. Those of us who hate gays will hate him anyway. I think this might be a case of picking the wrong battle, sadly.

 

[BigDug13]

Because stereotypical heterosexuals haven't been marginalized and murdered throughout history due to their heterosexual status?

Seriously, is this so hard to understand? There are still countries today where you are killed for homosexual relations. In England, you used to be drawn and quartered (your parts torn limb by limb while you were alive).

Stereotyping a historically repressed minority is something that we should seek to avoid.

So by that token, an antagonist should never be a woman who's good at math (witch), a black person, a Jewish person, a Native American, or any other race or gender which has seen years of death and marginalization?

That reaches a point that is similar to other media types where you're not allowed to portray a criminal in a commercial as anything other than white male. And in a commercial, the white male is always the only one who is dumb and needs a woman to guide him through life.

It's a dangerous road when you say only people who have never faced oppression should be cast in antagonist roles.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Ya know, it is pretty fucked how we can have a gay villain but not a gay protagonist in this series.

 

[AppleMIX]

I honestly not worried. Far Cry 3 had a gay sub-villain and he was done fine.

 

[BloodMoney]

perhaps he is just a villain with some ill threads and hair cut from 5th ave.
seriously though, FC4 looks awesome, and I like that they are pushing boundaries with the villain.

 

[funkypie]

we've had this thread already.

Sort answer, NO.

long answer, NO.

these issues are made worse by people always looking to find fault when there is none.

 

[Fysi]

To follow on from my silly comment, isn't this known as confirmation bias?

 

[Nokagi]

Nope. He seems like a really fun villain. Unless it plays some part in the game's story line I don't see how the possibility of him being gay has anything to do with anything.

 

[Messofanego]

We really need to wait for confirmation or when the game is out. I'm agreed mostly with your thoughts about gamers' reactions to homosexual characters, but Far Cry 3's Vaas made me uncomfortable with being all friendly and up in my face, and he wasn't gay.

I'm not gay, so I don't have as well-tuned a judgement, but is a fashion sense and being eccentric really a gay thing rather than just a villain thing? Although he did balk at blood getting on his shoe, so he seems very concerned about his appearance. But that could be a villain thing, too?

Isn't Skyfall kind of an exception for a well-done gay villain or are there more examples? Reminded of this video on gay villains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0fCyTSuIHQ

 

[ANDS]

You're basically pulling the same stunt that the first FC4 boxart racism thread did - arguing from an assumed reality (which perhaps will get obliterated once the facts came out just as the first thread did).

If there is poor writing and bad social stereotypes then we'll all know soon in November. Until then how about we just tackle things as they come, instead of crafting fictional scenarios to get riled up about.

 

[Rockandrollclown]

Honestly my only concern with FC4's villain is that they wrote another interesting villain, like Vaas, that will go underutilized or die halfway through the game.

 

[Nesotenso]

I think we have to wait for the game's release and playing the whole campaign before declaring him as gay. Him being gay is not the first thing that popped into my head yesterday.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Because stereotypical heterosexuals haven't been marginalized and murdered throughout history due to their heterosexual status?

Seriously, is this so hard to understand? There are still countries today where you are killed for homosexual relations. In England, you used to be drawn and quartered (your parts torn limb by limb while you were alive).

Stereotyping a historically repressed minority is something that we should seek to avoid.

It honestly is legitimately hard for me to understand. Everyone should be treated equally. It's black and white for me, it truly is. You don't fix a wrong by introducing more wrongs.

 

[molnizzle]

So by that token, an antagonist should never be a woman who's good at math (witch), a black person, a Jewish person, a Native American, or any other race or gender which has seen years of death and marginalization?

That reaches a point that is similar to other media types where you're not allowed to portray a criminal in a commercial as anything other than white male. And in a commercial, the white male is always the only one who is dumb and needs a woman to guide him through life.

It's a dangerous road when you say only people who have never faced oppression should be cast in antagonist roles.

Exactly.

Issues like racism and homophobia will never go away until we stop giving them so much coverage. Forcing creative mediums to avoid stereotypes is ridiculous, many actual people fit into stereotypes in their real lives. You can't just pretend that certain types of people don't exist because there's a stereotype associated with them.

 

[hbkdx12]

Whether the villain is gay or not the key to having mature representations of the LGBT community is subtlety. Most people whether they're straight, gay, bisexual or what have you, don't flaunt their sexuality as if that's all they're about.

Spoiler

Bill

from TLoU is an awesome fully realized character and it's very heavily implied that he's gay and the reason all that can work together is because they're not throwing it in you face that "Hey, this guy likes guys! Lets just make sure you know that front and center!" Instead he's just another person trying to survive the outbreak

Never having watched it before, i sat down and binged on the wire now that hbo shows are on amazon prime and Omar in that show is gay and basically introduced to us as gay early on. All the while, he's one of the most badass dude on the show (Yo Omar comin!) This dude isn't having crazy make out/sex sessions every other episode. Instead he's walking around with a shotgun robbing stash houses to piss of drug dealers. And everyone that Omar crosses know's he's gay and across the whole entire 5 seasons, there's only a handful of gay slurs in reference to his character. Mind you this show largely takes place in a urban culture where homosexuality is heavily frowned upon. It's because the motivations of his character are deeper than just being a guy who likes other guys.

On the medium (this one or any other one for that matter) doesn't approach the situation as if LGBTs are bullet points to check off and make note of then things can really move forward and not be a problem

 

[Jack Scofield]

Bad use of spoiler tags in the OP. Not that I care too much, but saying that you're talking about The Last of Us plot points and then spoiling DLC material is kind of lame.

 

[DrGonzo615]

The gay issue is always going to be a hot button issue in games (or at least for the next decade or so) but I dont feel that anybody should be tip toeing around the issue of a character being gay and what role they are cast into; that kind of thinking enforces the idea of gay being something worthy of special consideration and not just a part of every life and everyday people.

While I understand TC's argument that a gay antagonist could be construed as putting a gay person in a bad light, there is a flip side to that.

I dont think I would be going out on a limb to say that homophobic groups look at the LGBT community as being weaker or fairer people. Having an antagonist that is a stark raving madman who intimidates the player in every scene he is in and just happens to be gay could be viewed as empowering. Yes the antagonist is gay, but he is running the show and he is at the top of the food chain.

Arguments could be made for either opinion and what people take away from the game is going to be heavily influenced by their individual experiences and prejudices. People are going to read into it however they want so debating the issue can be entertaining but ultimately pointless.