You raise very valid points. However, it's too early in this game's marketing cycle to address specific issues. That's not to say your perspective doesn't have merit or you are wrong in any way.
All I'm saying is let the developers speak on this issue and reveal information on the setting before jumping to conclusions about any characters in the game.
Understand that some games play on stereotypes or tropes. I'm not excusing any mistreatment of anyone but pointing out that this happens.
No, that's not what he said. His words were that minority representation in games don't matter and that no one should care, which is a steaming pile of bullshit.
I'm not, just like i assume you dont support the OP for speaking on behalf of all LGBT because they definitely dont speak on my behalf as a gay man.
You're right, perhaps all villains should be white men that way we can all metaphorically fight the "patriarchy" like the "feminists" we should all be? We dont need white knighting, we're strong people and capable of expressing and talking as equals, we dont need to cry to developer or the public about our problems, we're above that.
Your analogy reeks of bullshit, just like it's bullshit to assume that fighting americans in a videogame will make me target americans as enemies, or russians, or any ethnicity. You're no different than media outlets that say grand theft auto makes us gunman.
As for heroic playable gay men? what about gordon freeman, master cheif, noble 6, commander shepherd, or any other character where the player is left to define his sexuality how they see fit?
I don't need sexuality stuffed in my face to project my homosexual tendencies on my characters, I don't need to be told the character that I play is gay, it's only when the opposite is happening that we should really complain. If they tell us a character is straight, then we should ask, "where is the gay version", that when we should be making these threads, not because the developer is looking to make a strong gay male figure in a leading role in a game.
1) Quit with all the we-speak. Again, you don't speak for (or even to) me.
2) Your use of scare quotes with the word feminists is hilarious. What do feminists even have to do with this discussion?
3) Asking for fair representation isn't stuffing homosexuality in your face.
4) Again, nobody is complaining about gay men being cast as villains. The complaint is against villains whose sexuality is used as a tool to communicate why they're evil or depraved. But please, don't let me stop your Uncle Tom'ing.
Scare quotes around the words patriarchy and feminist, white knight accusations, false comparison of my argument to GTA and gun control... I'm glad you exposed yourself with this bullshit, so that people know who they were quoting and applauding. At no point did I suggest all villains need to be white men, so back up with that nonsense.
Good for you not caring about clear and obvious minority representation in games. Some of us DO care about this and are not satisfied with shitty non-examples like Master Chief, Shepard and other blank slate avatars. Voicing concerns to devs and the public to create positive change works and should be encouraged; it works in other spaces after all. You're part of the problem in insisting that we ignore this or stop whining. Video game companies are not infallible and above criticism for some of the trash they produce that affects it's user base.
I'm not the problem man, I'm comfortable with who I am, I dont need re-affirmation of my sexuality to make me believe I'm valuable. Maybe you need to find someone who loves you for who you are and stop trying to find that love from a meaningless corporate agenda. The world doesn't care you're gay or straight, thinking that it does is what causes these problems. He's not a villian because he's gay, he's a villian who happens to enjoy the pleasure of other men, and what's wrong with that? it should be nothing, but apparently for the rest of the LGBT community it is.
People will always hate, and if it's not for the colour of your skin, or the people you have sex with, then it's for having red hair and talking with a lisp. People are mean, they're sick and their stupid, changing a character in a videogame is a meaningless pursuit. Instead of letting the character to be a villian first and gay second you're making him gay first and a villian second. Why? do you really think sexuality is that important, just because it defines you doesn't mean it defines everyone else. Stop projecting your own issues.
4) Again, nobody is complaining about gay men being cast as villains. The complaint is against villains whose sexuality is used as a tool to communicate why they're evil or depraved. But please, don't let me stop your Uncle Tom'ing.
and yet the only one doing that are people who are drumming an issue. By talking the way you are, by bringing up his sexuality at all, you're making him gay first and villian second, then using circular logic to prove your own points. This entire disicussion holds no water unless you project your own ideas and beliefs on the character, let him be a villian, and the problem disappears.
1) Quit with all the we-speak. Again, you don't speak for (or even to) me.
2) Your use of scare quotes with the word feminists is hilarious. What do feminists even have to do with this discussion?
3) Asking for fair representation isn't stuffing homosexuality in your face.
4) Again, nobody is complaining about gay men being cast as villains. The complaint is against villains whose sexuality is used as a tool to communicate why they're evil or depraved. But please, don't let me stop your Uncle Tom'ing.
I may have missed this earlier in the thread of in the reveal but where did this happen, honest question. I only saw the E3 Trailer and clearly it wasnt in that. I can only assume we are talking about something different? Thanks for filling me in. If I have been posting with the wrong discussion in mind id feel a bit silly.
For the love of christ it's a goddamn video game. At this point can I just assume that everything is homophobic/sexist/racist and that as a straight white man I am homophobic/sexist/racist/entitled? A
Well, ya.. I agree as corporations spend millions of dollars to have an image, but...
Saying that having the bad guy in a video game being gay is going to cause harm to gays in society... I dunno... that's kinda on the same level as saying GTA is grooming gamers to steal cars and kill hookers. And I'd hate to see GTA banned, as they gave us Tony, the fabulous gay business partner we get to protect in of their games!
Er... unless you're saying gays are weak, don't need to be protected, ya know... can't stand on their own. Hell, they should make one a villain!
For the love of christ it's a goddamn video game. At this point can I just assume that everything is homophobic/sexist/racist and that as a straight white man I am homophobic/sexist/racist/entitled? A
Well, ya.. I agree as corporations spend millions of dollars to have an image, but...
Saying that having the bad guy in a video game being gay is going to cause harm to gays in society... I dunno... that's kinda on the same level as saying GTA is grooming gamers to steal cars and kill hookers. And I'd hate to see GTA banned, as they gave us Tony, the fabulous gay business partner we get to protect in of their games!
Er... unless you're saying gays are weak, don't need to be protected, ya know... can't stand on their own. Hell, they should make one a villain!
Can you consider that people are more concerned about the overall pattern of media depiction than each and every individual instance? These things are bad when they reinforce stereotypes, not because some people have decided that you're not allowed to ever portray characters with certain attributes as bad guys.
Can you consider that people are more concerned about the overall pattern of media depiction than each and every individual instance? These things are bad when they reinforce stereotypes, not because some people have decided that you're not allowed to ever portray characters with certain attributes as bad guys.
Are gay people really portrayed that badly though? If someone in the public sphere says something about that part of their life they are torn to shreds by the media. If someone comes out, they are public embraced by them.
Years ago, sure, i could see the argument but this is simply a different (and i would say better) time.
I totally get what you are saying but, in my mind, you are fighting battles that are nearly over or have already been won.
Are gay people really portrayed that badly though? If someone in the public sphere says something about that part of their life they are torn to shreds by the media. If someone comes out, they are public embraced by them.
Years ago, sure, i could see the argument but this is simply a different (and i would say better) time.
I totally get what you are saying but, in my mind, you are fighting battles that are nearly over or have already been won.
We're not, infact we're often portrayed as relationship guru's, social deities and a variety of other typecast roles that can only be seen as positive. I dont remember the last non lgbt movie I've watched where a gay character wasn't perfect.
I personally loved the villain's vaguely flirtatious interactions with the main character, like when he comments on his eyes. I found it refreshingly ambiguous and evocative of deeper characterization.
But then again I'm a student of medieval love poetry and so the modern obsession with classifying people as straight or gay just kind of bores me.
I personally loved the villain's vaguely flirtatious interactions with the main character, like when he comments on his eyes. I found it refreshingly ambiguous and evocative of deeper characterization.
But then again I'm a student of medieval love poetry and so the modern obsession with classifying people as straight or gay just kind of bores me.
Honestly, I thought it had more of a paternal/fraternal vibe to it. Which would make sense if Pagan Min was, in fact, your mother's lover at one point. Which would also speak to the matter at hand, incidentally...
Mild, tagged spoilers for one of last years "big" games
(The Last of Us)
follows.
From the impressions, it seems like Far Cry 4's villain might be gay. Horribly stereotypical judgement, but he dresses, looks and sounds like a gay stereotype. And that worries me.
As a member of the LGBT community myself, I long for better diversity and representation in today's games. Outside of games that let you choose your sexuality, there are very few - if any - examples of well written, likeable LGBT characters.
Barring The Last of Us - and I applaud Druckmann for that
. Yet, at the moment, LGBT characters are met with a lot of hostility. When it was revealed during the
Left Behind DLC
that
Ellie
was not straight, there was a lot of internet backlash, with many saying that they felt that they had been tricked, or that it somehow worsened
Ellie
as a character. Obviously there was also a lot of positivity, which was great, but it was soured by the fact that there was so much negativity too.
When a character in Dragon Age II, who was male, would come onto your male character, many players complained that homosexuality was being "shoved down their throats" and that the unwanted attention made them "uncomfortable". All they had to do to stop his advances was say that they weren't interested, and that was it. Female characters would also come onto your character - to no issue. Yet the unwanted male attention led into enough of an issue on the internet that Bioware and EA had to address it, and thankfully they stuck to their ideals on representation and diversity. Every single article any gaming news site runs on LGBT representation in video games will be met with either homophobic remarks or "aggressive apathy" (i.e. I don't care about a character's sexuality, stop trying to talk to me about it - unless they're straight, because that fits the story).
Obviously, as a member of the LGBT community myself, it makes me incredibly sad and uncomfortable to read the horrible reactions people have to such things. Which is why I'm worried about Far Cry 4. If the antagonist of Far Cry 4 is gay, I'm concerned that the "average gamer" - the target audience for FC4 - will just view the antagonist's sexuality as another reason to hate him. I don't think this is a great position to place a gay character, when even LGBT characters portrayed as "likeable" (i.e. protagonists or companions) are already met with a shit-ton of hostility. Hell, even in Watch Dogs, where the NPCs are just mindless polygons that wander about, there were videos and reports of people seeking out and killing minorities just for the hell of it. So I think that putting a gay character in a role where they are supposed to be hated anyway is a bad idea.
Now this seems to run counter to my desire for better representation and diversity in AAA games. However, I just don't think that the wide gaming community will accept an LGBT villain if they won't accept LGBT protagonists or companions. I don't think it'll be like Skyfall, where an LGBT villain was accepted and regarded generally as a "good" villain, because the film industry has been around a lot longer than the gaming industry and as such has a much wider, much more diverse audience. Films are already well established as an artistic medium. The gaming industry meanwhile features a large percentage of younger boys/men and is not viewed by the general public as an artistic medium. Therefore it's harder for stuff like an LGBT villain to fly.
To give an example, if you were watching a film from the 50s, and all of the "good guys" were white men and women, but the villain was a stereotypical black man, would you consider that racism? If you would, then by the same logic, if you're playing a game in 2014 and all of the "good guys" are straight men and women but the villain is a stereotypical gay man, then it should be considered homophobia. And judging by Far Cry 3, which had some of the most stereotypical characters and elements in recent years, I doubt Far Cry 4's characters would be written with the subtlety and care seen in the likes of the Last of Us.
I would love to be proven wrong, but from here it looks like the villain is going to be a stereotype of a gay man. Into fashion and pink, dyes his hair blonde, is flamboyant etc. And that worries me, because instead of fleshing him out as a realistic character, I feel like it will become another reason for the "average gamer" to hate him. If he is gay, I can already bet that there will be a sequence where he uses his sexuality to make the player uncomfortable - which would never happen if the villain was straight. I feel like we need better diversity and representation in games but I think we need to start by having LGBT characters in likeable, or playable roles. That way the audience will get accustomed to them and start viewing that as less of a label and more of just a small facet of their personality, so that when a villain is gay they can be treated with the care and reception that a straight one would get.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. So only straight characters can be villains now? Let me get this straight, the LBGT community wants to be treated like everyone else except when it comes to designing fictional characters who may or may not be cast in a wholly positive light. Did I get that right?
Seems all very hypocritical to me especially from someone who claims they want to see diversity in the gaming community. Though perhaps you are on to something. It seems that most villains in movies and video games especially are straight white males. No wonder everyone hates them right? Nonsense.
I think you are making a big deal over nothing and so what if the villain is gay. In the words of our pal Ben, these are:
Another thread about representation in games that falls apart because "it's just games" and "WELL I DON'T CARE" and disingenuous arguments. Good job guys, giving the forum a great look.
