Support NeoGAF

[Jado]

Generic white dude and generic black dude.

Both are actually from India, one from the north and one from the south. I'll let you guess which one is which.

I find the whole "he doesn't look ___ enough" actually borderline racist, because it's like "well, ____ people should look this and that way". In reality it's not all down to "extreme" phenotypes.

I would agree if we lived in a world where the guy on the right has as much of a chance as being the base model for a game's protagonist as the guy on the left. 9 out of 10 times, character of _____ ethnicity looks Caucasian or as close as possible.

 

[Derpcrawler]

Wasn't antagonist already been confirmed gay by Ubisoft PR manager?

http://myxboxlive.com/gaming/ubisoft-confirms-far-cry-4-character-is-gay/

On topic - don't really care, I don't get why gay community want more gay characters in video games, which are plenty lately, but against any villain being gay?

I was myself playing FemShep and tapped that Liara ass. Generally Bioware games have lot of gay characters, usually in role of heroes or at least "good guys". From top of my memory some of Last of Us "good" characters were also gay. And I remember both studios got praise for LGBT praise, but now it's a problem?

 

[collige]

People become more tolerant and accepting when they're exposed to differing POVs and the experiences of others. I think this sort of crap would be less common if video games made a better effort at providing diverse playable characters and less stereotypical depictions of minorities.

I agree. But your previous argument was that having a gay antagonist would provide malicious homophobic players with a reason to commit a virtual hate crime when all the evidence points to the fact that players will hunt down minorities regardless of their moralities. And honestly, I don't think bigots are dumb enough to have their convictions reinforced by a villain in a fucking action game and to design a story as if they are runs the risk of hurting the overall quality of the art.

 

[block tower]

The facial features do not look Caucasian at all.

theres no such thing as Caucasian only features. the man has facial features that coud exist in any ethnic background. but the man as a whole looks unmistakably Caucasian, im not sure if your trying to be PC or what but this man passes as Caucasian 10 out 10 times. he looks indistinguishable from most other video game protagonists who have pale skin, dark eyes, and dark hair.

 

[EL CUCO]

Hmm...as a straight male, I never once thought he was gay.

 

[dancingphlower]

Pagan Min is not gay. He had a thing for the protagonist's mother a while back. They even had a child together. Why are people assuming he's gay just because he dresses a certain way? Also, he's from Hong Kong, if anyone's wondering.

 

[Dead Man]

When I play videogames, the last things I worry about is their gender and sexuality. While important issues today, I don't think videogames are a good vehicle to help with acceptability and tolerance.

Why not?

 

[rocketskates]

You guys need to realize tghm1801 is basically a shuri v2.0.

People please, stop feeding the trolls.

 

[Drifters]

I'm convinced he is bi. Does that make him any better or worse than a straight or gay villian? I think not.

 

[Fancy Clown]

sure looks white to me. certainly didnt look like the antagonist or the other asian characters. dude has pale skin, dark brown eyes, and brown/black hair. looks like generic white male protagonist alright.

What on earth are you talking about. He has light brown skin. He is going back to his homeland. Neither of those characters are white.

 

[fader]

Generic white dude and generic black dude.

Both are actually from India, one from the north and one from the south. I'll let you guess which one is which.

I find the whole "he doesn't look ___ enough" actually borderline racist, because it's like "well, ____ people should look this and that way". In reality it's not all down to "extreme" phenotypes.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I don't think it's fair comparing real life people and their live's to a negative trope

 

[daycru]

Why are people assuming he's gay just because he dresses a certain way?

An insatiable thirst for outrage.

 

[kyoakuma]

Who cares? It's a video game.

 

[ItsGeeMcGee]

Who cares what his sexual preference is?

 

[BeesEight]

The facial features do not look Caucasian at all.

Caucasian includes India:

"Caucasian race (also Caucasoid or Europid) is the general physical type of some or all of the populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Western Asia, Central Asia and South Asia."

- wikipedia

 

[Dead Man]

Who cares? It's a video game.

Who cares what his sexual preference is?

:/

What on earth are you talking about. He has light brown skin. He is going back to his homeland. Neither of those characters are white.

Dude looks Persian to me actually, but yeah, not generic north west European.

 

[ItsGeeMcGee]

:/

I should clarify, when I meet people in real life sexual preference and race don't enter the equation in how I perceive them. Why should it be different for video game characters?

 

[Dead Man]

I should clarify, when I meet people in real life sexual preference and race don't enter the equation in how I perceive them. Why should it be different for video game characters?

It should be self evident. They are not real people and can be portrayed in a lot of hurtful and bigoted ways. You may not care, but if there is a shitty and hurtful minority character you should. If they had an offensive asian stereotype with squinting and glasses and social awkwardness and the whole bit would you care? I don't care what race a person is, but I would care if they were depicted in a hurtful way.

I'm not saying this is the case in FC4, but just because you don't care on a personal level about someones sexuality doesn't mean you shouldn't care how it is portrayed in media.

 

[Sai-kun]

I should clarify, when I meet people in real life sexual preference and race don't enter the equation in how I perceive them. Why should it be different for video game characters?

Representation is important for all non-white/male/straight people. Period.

 

[ab.aeterno]

On topic - don't really care, I don't get why gay community want more gay characters in video games, which are plenty lately, but against any villain being gay?

It's a pretty clear minority, if there even is anyone really saying it, that feels there shouldn't be any gay antagonists at all. What people are expressing concern about are gay stereotypes being antagonists. The same way you wouldn't black caricature stereotypes to be villains, it's not about what they are, it's about how they might be presented.

As for the bolded, what? You and I must have very different definitions of plenty.

 

[kyoakuma]

Well I guess op got what he wanted with this thread. social justice whiners have no place in videos games. Video games are meant as an escape from reality, fictional characters should not influence a normal persons views on a live person in reality. I'm for equal rights, But when someone uses video games as an outlet to their social views, it attention whoring, buuuuut that's my opinion

 

[ItsGeeMcGee]

I'm not saying this is the case in FC4, but just because you don't care on a personal level about someones sexuality doesn't mean you shouldn't care how it is portrayed in media.

I'll certainly concede that but from what I've seen so far I don't see anything to suggest he is gay at all, just a bit flamboyant and a lot crazy. Now if the game comes out and he is portrayed as a crazy gay person that's a different story. I'm just saying if he turns out to be a crazy person who happens to be gay - and being gay isn't implied as a negative aspect of his character - then it's not as big of a deal

 

[fader]

Who cares? It's a video game.

i really dont like this argument

 

[Trogdor1123]

It should be self evident. They are not real people and can be portrayed in a lot of hurtful and bigoted ways. You may not care, but if there is a shitty and hurtful minority character you should. If they had an offensive asian stereotype with squinting and glasses and social awkwardness and the whole bit would you care? I don't care what race a person is, but I would care if they were depicted in a hurtful way.

I'm not saying this is the case in FC4, but just because you don't care on a personal level about someones sexuality doesn't mean you shouldn't care how it is portrayed in media.

People are always depicited as bad dudes in video games... like 99.9% of games have a bad dude... to say its ok for one group to be portrayed one way, regardless of how "accepted" their group is but for a different one to be treated the same way as some kind of awful thing is pretty hypocritcal.

What i am saying is it shouldnt matter. There are jerks in every walk of life. Just cause one person portrayed back doesnt meant that all are bad. I suspect most people understand that...

 

[Sai-kun]

Well I guess op got what he wanted with this thread. social justice whiners have no place in videos games. Video games are meant as an escape from reality, fictional characters should not influence a normal persons views on a live person in reality. I'm for equal rights, But when someone uses video games as an outlet to their social views, it attention whoring, buuuuut that's my opinion

What's "social justice whiny" about caring about the kind of representations minorities receive in media? Sounds like a pretty thoughtful thing to me.

 

[kyoakuma]

i really dont like this argument

Why? The majority of people are not going stereotype someone in real life based on a fictional character they saw in a video game it's not rocket science.

 

[kyoakuma]

What's "social justice whiny" about caring about the kind of representations minorities receive in media? Sounds like a pretty thoughtful thing to me.

Because if your biggest concern is how you may be represented in a video game rather than actually being represented in the actual media by the likes of politicians, you gotta get your priorities sorted out

 

[Orayn]

Because if your biggest concern is how you may be represented in a video game rather than actually being represented in the actual media by the likes of politicians, you gotta get your priorities sorted out

I forgot these things worked on a strict queue system that only allows someone to ever be concerned with one topic at a time.

 

[Acorn]

In another thread a few weeks ago I argued that writing in videogames is so sub par that inevitably we'd end up with caricatured LBGT characters(just like we do for nationalities and other groups of people now). A lot of people seemed to think I was 'concern trolling' in that thread.

It seemed like generally people thought any representation was better than none. Interesting how it's different in this thread.

 

[Jado]

Why? The majority of people are not going stereotype someone in real life based on a fictional character they saw in a video game it's not rocket science.

You're wrong and underestimating how popular media affects people.

In another thread a few weeks ago I argued that writing in videogames is so sub par that inevitably we'd end up with caricatured LBGT characters(just like we do for nationalities and other groups of people now). A lot of people seemed to think I was 'concern trolling' in that thread.

It seemed like generally people thought any representation was better than none. Interesting how it's different in this thread.

Really? It seems exactly like that in this thread. And those people aren't using the term "concern trolling" correctly.

 

[kyoakuma]

I forgot these things worked on a strict queue system that only allows someone to ever be concerned with one topic at a time.

Then let me revise my statement. And keep in mind this is my opinion as someone who is 100% for equal rights,

If you have a problem by the way a gay person may be represented in a video game, then you need to sort out your priorities out

 

[Dr. Malik]

dude with the white shirt looks really hot

I have nothing else to add to this thread

 

[Dead Man]

People are always depicited as bad dudes in video games... like 99.9% of games have a bad dude... to say its ok for one group to be portrayed one way, regardless of how "accepted" their group is but for a different one to be treated the same way as some kind of awful thing is pretty hypocritcal.

What i am saying is it shouldnt matter. There are jerks in every walk of life. Just cause one person portrayed back doesnt meant that all are bad. I suspect most people understand that...

I never said what constitutes a hurtful portrayal. Just being gay and a villain is not it.

Oh, and it does matter, a lot. To every kid from a given minority group it matters. Having a gay villain is not a problem. Having a stereotype that is in poor taste be the only gay character in the game could be.

I'll certainly concede that but from what I've seen so far I don't see anything to suggest he is gay at all, just a bit flamboyant and a lot crazy. Now if the game comes out and he is portrayed as a crazy gay person that's a different story. I'm just saying if he turns out to be a crazy person who happens to be gay - and being gay isn't implied as a negative aspect of his character - then it's not as big of a deal

That could be true, it is not the simple fact of his being the villain that I would take issue with. I am withholding judgement until I see more of him though.

 

[tasch]

So just like certain people started hunting minorities in Watch Dogs, you don't care that this has the potential to stoke homophobic sentiments by relying on old stereotypes about "gay equals demented" villains, encouraging a segment of players to revel in hunting down and killing the evil gay man, and all while simultaneously having to accept that there are practically no heroic gay men as playable characters in AAA titles (with no attempts by developers) at addressing this glaring imbalance?

I really hope people aren't quoting you with the assumption you speak for all LGBT persons.

I'm not, just like i assume you dont support the OP for speaking on behalf of all LGBT because they definitely dont speak on my behalf as a gay man.

You're right, perhaps all villains should be white men that way we can all metaphorically fight the "patriarchy" like the "feminists" we should all be? We dont need white knighting, we're strong people and capable of expressing and talking as equals, we dont need to cry to developer or the public about our problems, we're above that.

Your analogy reeks of bullshit, just like it's bullshit to assume that fighting americans in a videogame will make me target americans as enemies, or russians, or any ethnicity. You're no different than media outlets that say grand theft auto makes us gunman.

As for heroic playable gay men? what about gordon freeman, master cheif, noble 6, commander shepherd, or any other character where the player is left to define his sexuality how they see fit?

I don't need sexuality stuffed in my face to project my homosexual tendencies on my characters, I don't need to be told the character that I play is gay, it's only when the opposite is happening that we should really complain. If they tell us a character is straight, then we should ask, "where is the gay version", that when we should be making these threads, not because the developer is looking to make a strong gay male figure in a leading role in a game.

 

[Mr. X]

I can name more LGBT bad guys than good guys in games. I can't think of any that were flamboyant and weren't the bad guy. I'm not going to say it doesn't reinforce negative attitudes but it surely can't be reinforcing positive ones..

 

[Orayn]

Then let me revise my statement. And keep in mind this is my opinion as someone who is 100% for equal rights,

If you have a problem by the way a gay person may be represented in a video game, then you need to sort out your priorities out

That's complete and utter bullshit to the point where I can barely even address it.

Minority representation in media just... Doesn't matter? It's silly to care? What the fuck?

 

[Dead Man]

Then let me revise my statement. And keep in mind this is my opinion as someone who is 100% for equal rights,

If you have a problem by the way a gay person may be represented in a video game, then you need to sort out your priorities out

Weak as piss. You may only be able to allocate your brain to one thing at a time, thankfully most of humanity is capable of a bit more.


In fact, this may be one of the weakest rebuttals I have ever seen.

 

[indivisible]

The people who said that Pagan was a racist slave owner based off of box art are the same up in arms about this. Can you not wait for the game to come out or more information to be released before causing an uproar on something that MIGHT be true? If anything you are giving the game free publicity, negative or not. Everyone wants to at least check out the games that are banned or has something controversial in it.

 

[Trogdor1123]

That's complete and utter bullshit to the point where I can barely even address it.

Minority representation in media just... Doesn't matter? It's silly to care? What the fuck?

Hes saying that the regular person can tell the difference between a video game and reality. Surely you dont disagree?

 

[Orca]

Then let me revise my statement. And keep in mind this is my opinion as someone who is 100% for equal rights,

If you have a problem by the way a gay person may be represented in a video game, then you need to sort out your priorities out

I think there's an issue of priorities - or perhaps more appropriately, of agenda - if there's only a problem if the villain may be gay...not an issue if the gay character were a hero or positively-presented side character.

Equality means being treated equally. Brings bad with the good.

 

[Orayn]

Hes saying that the regular person can tell the difference between a video game and reality. Surely you dont disagree?

I disagree with the assertion that media has no effect on anyone. A stereotypical depiction doesn't need to make someone consciously experience hate toward a particular group to reinforce someone's prejudices.

 

[fuzzyset]

I don't really see it as a problem, if they don't play into 'gay stereotypes' as to why he is the villain. For example, too many people think gay males are pedophiles (or more prone to it). If there is a scene in Far Cry 4 where you are exposed the villain's 'badness' while he is alluding to boning kids, yes that's ridiculous and feeding into terrible stereotypes. However, from the trailer, he is a villain because he ruthlessly murders people. He's not a villain because he is gay. He is a villain who happens to be gay.

 

[mishakoz]

Its not even announced what his sexuality is. Why does the post begin by trying to use stereotypical identifiers to assume something about a character. speech, dress? Seriously, OP your post reeks of ignorance.

 

[Mr. X]

Hes saying that the regular person can tell the difference between a video game and reality. Surely you dont disagree?

Media has a strong influence on perception.

 

[dancingphlower]

Its not even announced what his sexuality is. Why does the post begin by trying to use stereotypical identifiers to assume something about a character. speech, dress? Seriously, OP your post reeks of ignorance.

In Game Informer's cover story they mention he fell in love with the main character's mother.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I disagree with the assertion that media has no effect on anyone. A stereotypical depiction doesn't need to make someone consciously experience hate toward a particular group to reinforce someone's prejudices.

Yeah but those people's opinions are not going to be changed by a contradicting view anyways id say. I personally dont think that media has as much effect on people as others claim it does. I dont think that video games make people kill and I dont think that portrayals of groups passes on to reality. Its not like a characters, in this instance, sexuality is the reason he is doing things, its just another layer of depth to the character. Thats not bad, thats a good thing (story wise).

On a side not, im still trying to figure out why its awful for a minority, of any kind, to be the bad guy as thats instantly a portrayal of the entire group. It simply doesnt make sense to me. I guess others are welcome to think as they will though.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Media has a strong influence on perception.

I suspect that the media has a strong influence on reinforcing ones perception rather than changing it, very different things. Id have to do some reading though to verify a claim of this nature, it could easily be wrong.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I have a buddy from Hong Kong and he was telling me that in Hong Kong that their version of China Town is actually White town... i assumed he was pulling my leg but another friend verified it... I still dont believe it (not sure why lol)

 

[Jado]

I'm not, just like i assume you dont support the OP for speaking on behalf of all LGBT because they definitely dont speak on my behalf as a gay man.

You're right, perhaps all villains should be white men that way we can all metaphorically fight the "patriarchy" like the "feminists" we should all be? We dont need white knighting, we're strong people and capable of expressing and talking as equals, we dont need to cry to developer or the public about our problems, we're above that.

Your analogy reeks of bullshit, just like it's bullshit to assume that fighting americans in a videogame will make me target americans as enemies, or russians, or any ethnicity. You're no different than media outlets that say grand theft auto makes us gunman.

As for heroic playable gay men? what about gordon freeman, master cheif, noble 6, commander shepherd, or any other character where the player is left to define his sexuality how they see fit?

I don't need sexuality stuffed in my face to project my homosexual tendencies on my characters, I don't need to be told the character that I play is gay, it's only when the opposite is happening that we should really complain. If they tell us a character is straight, then we should ask, "where is the gay version", that when we should be making these threads, not because the developer is looking to make a strong gay male figure in a leading role in a game.

Scare quotes around the words patriarchy and feminist, white knight accusations, false comparison of my argument to GTA and gun control... I'm glad you exposed yourself with this bullshit, so that people know who they were quoting and applauding. At no point did I suggest all villains need to be white men, so back up with that nonsense.

Good for you not caring about clear and obvious minority representation in games. Some of us DO care about this and are not satisfied with shitty non-examples like Master Chief, Shepard and other blank slate avatars. Voicing concerns to devs and the public to create positive change works and should be encouraged; it works in other spaces after all. You're part of the problem in insisting that we ignore this or stop whining. Video game companies are not infallible and above criticism for some of the trash they produce that affects it's user base.

Hes saying that the regular person can tell the difference between a video game and reality. Surely you dont disagree?

No, that's not what he said. His words were that minority representation in games don't matter and that no one should care, which is a steaming pile of bullshit.

 

[BokehKing]

I think it's probably more offensive to the lesbian/gay community by assuming he is guy based off of pre concieved stereo types.

Deniro wore a pink tux in casino and hung out with a bunch of guys, not gay

End of the day this guy is a bad guy that needs to die. Pretty sure he will do something foul that will make me want to kill him. His sexuality (which is probably straight but...) has zero impact on how I will view an evil person.


If people take their hate out on this guy, there is nothing that can be done about that. Just realize those people with those "issues" or what not, does not represent the mass public

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

again if you hadn't told me the guy on the left is of Nepalese decent i would have never arrived at that conclusion on my own. that doesn't make me racist at all, he may be of Nepalese decent but he looks white. Ubisoft clearly chose an unmistakably white looking protagonist on purpose, you'd be naive to think otherwise.

It's not white looking what you see. He could be way more pig nosed and rounder, the spectrum of barely looking white to something like Prince Charles is pretty huge. What this character is, is stereotypically handsome, and that happens to be that so-so mix-space in between that appeals to as many people as possible and is what's hot according to beauty standards right now. The lack of prominent racial features.