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Is anyone feeling very differently after completing Spec Ops: The Line?

jimi_dini

Member
-During the white phosphorus scene, I tried to snipe all the enemies instead of using the WP before I realized there was no way down.

In an interview the designer said that
he should have made it possible to get down, but not survive down there and he regretted not having put in that option

-When asked to choose between shooting the two prisoners, I decided to ignore the command and move on. Then I realized there was no way to proceed, because the game would autokill you.

You mean
the soldier and the civilian hanging and you are told to "choose"? it's possible to shoot the snipers instead - although the snipers will shoot both of them in that case - at least you won't kill any of them

Of course it would have been better if you would have been able to just
walk away from it without any penalty or action required, because the whole thing is Walker hallucinating, there were just 2 rotten corpses, noone else
.


One thing that really got me was the
civilians - I tried to run past them - wasn't possible, then I noticed that they threw rocks and I would get killed - then I thought wth and shot them - and 2 seconds later I noticed I'm a bad person and I should have shot into the air - restarted checkpoint and yeah that worked just fine
.

Oh yeah, that was pretty cool. Even made a spoiler gif for it.
The huge sandstorm did give it a surreal fairytale feel where these people are just dumped in this place and not sure how they got there or why everything is crazy in this world
.

Did you also notice that in the additional ending Walker
wears the jacket of John Konrad
?
 

Trame

Member
The whole freaking POINT is that you're not doing it out of self defense. At any point, Walker could have left, but he kept moving the goalposts forward to justify moving further into Dubai, and to justify the killing of US soldiers.

They mention that the 33rd are no longer acting like members of the US Army, but really they are. Have you stopped to consider that maybe the 33rd were protecting the locals, and trying to help them? You destroy their water sources, kill them 33rd unprovoked just because they're in a videogame and that's what you do in a videogame.

Your mission was to check on Dubai, not to keep going in deeper and deeper. Walker does this because he feels like he has to, just like you keep going further because you feel like that is what you're supposed to do in a videogame. If anyone's acting like not a part of the US Army, it's Walker.
there are points of the game where you're not acting in self-defense, you're right. the most hilarious ones are white phosphorous and killing people with the helicopter for no reason. however, the first time you kill US soldiers, it's self-defense. the game has stealth sections where even if you try not to kill them, they will always find you and fire upon you, and if you don't kill them you die. you are repeatedly ambushed by US soldiers (who will kill you if you don't kill them) or have to protect your team members from US soldiers (who will kill them if you don't kill the soldiers). US soldiers take your team members hostage and you have to kill US soldiers to rescue them. in short the game repeatedly puts you in situations where US soldiers are trying to kill you, strike first, and you have to kill them to defend yourself, including the first time anything happens (which, incredibly, is immediately after you help rescue a US soldier who was being tortured by the CIA).

but you're right, walker keeps going forward, and kills many people NOT in self-defense. plus them going deeper and deeper is his fault, so many of the situations they find themselves in, even if they're being fired on first and have to defend themselves to stay alive at that point, could have been avoided. but the first time you kill US soldiers, it's self-defense (at that point it's not clear that he's not following the mission parameters, since he's trying to establish contact with the 33rd still). and after a while, the game stops caring. which AGAIN, i get the point is that the characters stop caring, but what i'm saying is that the game DOESN'T stop caring about the civilians (EXCEPT after the lugo scene). i.e., the game is capitalizing much more heavily on killing of civilians than killing of US soldiers. the US soldiers thing is definitely an element that is there, but it's not as important internally as anytime civilians die.

also yes i get what the 33rd was trying to do, the game explicitly tells you multiple times. there is nothing subtle about spec ops's story. however, at the point in time when you are doing these things, that's not obvious. they just end up telling you how bad you are after you've already done it with zero intel, where them doing stuff with zero intel itself makes no sense, is terrible and unrealistic, and is something i'm saying is bad. there is a point where the game turns purely into a "revenge" thing (probably around the time you kill the radio man and get in the helicopter); i'm talking about before this point. everything you do after this point you have near-complete information (everything but the ending), so it's just murder. but it's obvious.

the "it's about you, you have to keep going forward because you think that's what you do in a videogame!" line is kind of nuts. if the game gave options where you could do things peacefully (which notably IT DOES NOT), then this storyline might make more sense if the player was repeatedly picking stupid options that resulted in more and more deaths. but the developers set it up so you HAVE to do all the stupid stuff, so there's no choice on the part of the player. the only choice is to stop playing the game. if you make a game where the winning move is not to play, then first of all it's a bad game, and second of all your message is self-defeating, because you don't GET the message without playing it. there are people in this thread, right now, who like this game, telling other people who got bored and quit it that they should keep playing. why, if the point is they should stop playing the game?? anyone who thought the game was shit and turned it off would have made the winning move!
 

jimi_dini

Member
but the developers set it up so you HAVE to do all the stupid stuff, so there's no choice on the part of the player.

No, you always do have a choice. Noone is forcing you to play the game. You could have just stopped playing. But you wanted to be a hero.

"None of this would have happened if you'd just stopped." -
Konrad said this to Walker and to the player at the same time

And don't just look at it as a single game. It's a commentary on those type of videogames. And for me personally it worked. I will definitely not buy and not play this mass-murdering Tomb Raider game for example. I'm now even more sick of those type of games as before. Spec Ops makes you think about all that (at least it tries to - it still depends on the player). Other games don't. That's why <3 Spec Ops The Line.

I mean you say that it's a bad game because of that. Why? Because you wanted to feel like a hero at the end? Get a happy ending? Get an ending where you die a heroic death? Almost every single shooter out there doesn't give you such "options". At most you get super evil or super good "options". But you wouldn't call every one of them bad, wouldn't you. Why?

if the game gave options where you could do things peacefully (which notably IT DOES NOT), then this storyline might make more sense if the player was repeatedly picking stupid options that resulted in more and more deaths.

At least the
civilian riot
can be ended peacefully. And you also don't need to shoot any of those
2 hung up corpses
.
 

Trame

Member
No, you always do have a choice. Noone is forcing you to play the game. You could have just stopped playing. But you wanted to be a hero.

"None of this would have happened if you'd just stopped." -
Konrad said this to Walker and to the player at the same time

And don't just look at it as a single game. It's a commentary on those type of videogames. And for me personally it worked. I will definitely not buy and not play this mass-murdering Tomb Raider game for example. I'm now even more sick of those type of games as before. Spec Ops makes you think about all that (at least it tries to - it still depends on the player). Other games don't. That's why <3 Spec Ops The Line.

I mean you say that it's a bad game because of that. Why? Because you wanted to feel like a hero at the end? Get a happy ending? Get an ending where you die a heroic death? Almost every single shooter out there doesn't give you such "options". At most you get super evil or super good "options". But you wouldn't call every one of them bad, wouldn't you. Why?

At least the
civilian riot
can be ended peacefully. And you also don't need to shoot any of those
2 hung up corpses
.
1) i played spec ops because i could get it for free when i bought bioshock infinite and had heard wildly different opinions on it (half the people praising the story as the most amazing thing ever, half the people making fun of it as nonsensical). i could basically see where it was going by the halfway mark but kept playing to have an informed opinion on it primarily because i didn't want people telling me it "gets better." i don't know why you'd assume anyone would play spec ops - a game where every comment i've ever seen about the game is basically "but what if you're the bad guy" - because they want to be a hero. who seriously plays games because they want to be a hero anyway

2) "haha you played it, you fell into our trap" is an incredibly cheap tactic; that's why it's bad. you could make this game with anything. e.g. a sidescroller where mario has to listen to koopas talk with each other, then has to violently stomp their brains in before he's allowed to progress because the plot requires him to before he goes on. i wouldn't be surprised at all if there's a game like that on newgrounds or something. it's a lazy idea and requires little to no effort to pull off - make the player do something insane by giving them no other options, then yell at him for doing it. but i don't feel any guiltier morally for playing a game where horrible things are the only option than the developer should feel moral guilt for making a game where horrible things are the only option.

also to be clear i think every FPS game i've ever played has a terrible story. the reason they're not all bad is some of them are fun to play mechanically, which spec ops isn't. of course, if spec ops was fun to play mechanically, it would be undermining its own message, which would make the story even dumber, which is another reason why having "don't play videogames" as a message for your videogame is questionable.

edit: the only book i've ever read that attempted anything like "you're stupid for reading this" was lost in the funhouse, which is a collection of postmodern short stories that play with the basic ideas of storytelling, narrative devices and conventions, etc. it was annoying as hell there too, but handled infinitely better than spec ops because instead of, i don't know, describing something really gross and sadistic then going "wow bro i can't believe you'd keep reading that after the first paragraph, what's wrong with you? lol" it respects the reader as a functioning human being and more plays with the idea of wanting to know what happens next, of wanting the story to have an ending or have a coherent plot or make sense when read in english. i would say it still comes across as being pretty full of itself, but at least it doesn't go for shock value or gut emotional response to make its "point," to any degree it is even reasonable to say it had a point.
 

Petrie

Banned
1) i played spec ops because i could get it for free when i bought bioshock infinite and had heard wildly different opinions on it (half the people praising the story as the most amazing thing ever, half the people making fun of it as nonsensical). i could basically see where it was going by the halfway mark but kept playing to have an informed opinion on it primarily because i didn't want people telling me it "gets better." i don't know why you'd assume anyone would play spec ops - a game where every comment i've ever seen about the game is basically "but what if you're the bad guy" - because they want to be a hero. who seriously plays games because they want to be a hero anyway

Almost everyone to some degree. Those playing MP who aren't great play for those moments when they are the team's hero. Same with SP campaigns. You're just being ignorant if you try to pretend that's not a huge part of the allure of the modern FPS especially.
 

daviyoung

Banned
Almost everyone to some degree. Those playing MP who aren't great play for those moments when they are the team's hero. Same with SP campaigns. You're just being ignorant if you try to pretend that's not a huge part of the allure of the modern FPS especially.

Haha no. It's an insult to think our agency only comes from transplanting ourselves into an avatar. It's simplistic and silly to assume this, especially with linear story driven experiences. Reminds me of that 'in game' video of the dude who thinks he is Commander Sheperd when he plays Mass Effect.
 

Ithil

Member
In the sense that regular military shooters are going to seem extra silly from now on? Sure.

Good game.
 
I think the whole point is to place the player in strict no choice conventions of shooters and show you the result of those actions. Player choice would actually undermine the criticism. If you know about the criticism the story contains prior to playing it you can actually take in the message clearer and it is a lot more interesting to play.
 

daviyoung

Banned
I think the whole point is to place the player in strict no choice conventions of shooters and show you the result of those actions. Player choice would actually undermine the criticism. If you know about the criticism the story contains prior to playing it you can actually take in the message clearer and it is a lot more interesting to play.

Only in one scene is that particularly evident, due to both lack of information and knowledge of tropes it was a well orchestrated setpiece. And yet in some places it does give you a choice. The whole thing smacks of compromise.
 

Lime

Member
Here are some criticisms of where Spec Ops' fails.

Part 1: http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/spec-ops-the-line-is-a-bad-videogame/

Part 2: http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/12/11/spec-ops-the-line-is-still-a-bad-videogame/

Some excerpts (more at the link)

Setting
The game conveniently skips over the fact that Dubai does have some very real issues; foremost is the (alleged, depending on what you read) use of indentured labour and abuses stemming from that. This &#8216;mature&#8217; narrative completely ignores the reality of the city, preferring to rely on established and damaging cultural tropes.

Most damning is that commentators have noted that the locals depicted in Spec Ops speak Farsi. Which is a complete failure to even do Wikipedia-level research of their main setting. Even then, with Arabic as the official language of the state, only about 17% of the population are Emiratis (and very, very few of them are of the working class that hypothetically couldn&#8217;t escape the city) while nearly three-quarters of the population are Asian expatriates &#8211; many of whom are quite capable of speaking English. Nope, better to otherise the locals by having them speak something sounding like it&#8217;s from one of those places.

The commentary on linearity
The only difference between Spec Ops: The Line and its peers is the attempt to use the narrative to shift a poorly defined sense of guilt or moral culpability from Yager Studios to the players, and then to trot out this line to support a claim that they were doing something new and interesting.

This manipulation of the play through narrative reminds me of similar situation, when the developers of Bioshock likewise attempted to use their linear narrative an as excuse. They tried to cleverly mask the fact that they&#8217;d completely sold out the System Shock legacy and had instead made a corridor shooter devoid of player agency. The clever plot twist was that the player-character was being telepathically controlled by the antagonist for the majority of the game. &#8216;Ahah!&#8217; thought some players, &#8216;here is our explanation as to why Bioshock is a corridor fetch-a-thon.&#8217; Never mind the fact that, after the &#8216;big reveal,&#8217; the game continued to play in exactly the same manner, and be exactly the same corridor shooter devoid of any real player agency. The whole twist had no effect on the gameplay; it was simply narrative window dressing.
 

Trame

Member
Almost everyone to some degree. Those playing MP who aren't great play for those moments when they are the team's hero. Same with SP campaigns. You're just being ignorant if you try to pretend that's not a huge part of the allure of the modern FPS especially.
actually i'd definitely agree for multiplayer (when i first wrote that i had "if i wanted to be a hero i'd go play TF2" but i deleted it because i didn't think it was really relevant to what spec ops has going on)

for SP games, too, i overstated, because wish fulfillment is definitely a thing developers specifically cater to. i'd still argue it is not the primary motivator for almost anyone, since most people barely care about the plot if the gameplay is good enough, and people who really care about the plot are usually looking for something more than being a superhero. in spec ops's case in particular, i'd argue any player playing spec ops because they want to be a hero has something like zero self-awareness
 

Petrie

Banned
actually i'd definitely agree for multiplayer (when i first wrote that i had "if i wanted to be a hero i'd go play TF2" but i deleted it because i didn't think it was really relevant to what spec ops has going on)

for SP games, too, i overstated, because wish fulfillment is definitely a thing developers specifically cater to. i'd still argue it is not the primary motivator for almost anyone, since most people barely care about the plot if the gameplay is good enough, and people who really care about the plot are usually looking for something more than being a superhero. in spec ops's case in particular, i'd argue any player playing spec ops because they want to be a hero has something like zero self-awareness

I don't think you have to care about the story in a SP experience to be going for a "hero" form of escapism. I'd even say it's easier to just transplant yourself and assume based on tropes that you are the hero and everyone else is just bad and needs to be killed if you aren't paying attention to story.

It doesn't have to be someone's primary reason for playing to be a part of the reason though.
 

Lord Phol

Member
This thread makes me wonder if playing the game with the Occulus (or similar) and some more motion-like controls would make it have a bigger impact on people. I'm pretty desensitized myself nowdays, but "being" in the actual game could change things quite a bit.
Man I can't wait for the future!
 

void666

Banned
At the white phosphorus scene i knew what the game was trying to do. So it had zero impact on me. Besides there is no choice to be made.
 

Petrie

Banned
At the white phosphorus scene i knew what the game was trying to do. So it had zero impact on me. Besides there is no choice to be made.

I'm not sure why people associate "impact" with "choice". I'm convinced many here simply don't see games beyond anything but mechanics.
 

Lime

Member
I'm not sure why people associate "impact" with "choice". I'm convinced many here simply don't see games beyond anything but mechanics.

Spoilers incoming:

This Is Where You Feel Bad

Let&#8217;s look at the white phosphorus section, ignoring the fact Yager Studios seems to escape the obvious criticism that the jarring transition from technological detachment to real-world consequences had already been well-covered by the Modern Warfare series.

This scene is the narrative turning point that the producers proudly trot out time after time, and is commonly cited as the most personally affecting moments of the videogame by a number of people who apparently managed to transition to adult life, while still retaining the same level of emotional resilience as the target market of a cartoon about magic ponies (hint: children.)

In order to proceed through this section of the game the player is tasked with firing white phosphorus on an enemy position. Once wiped out, the game then walks you through the devastation you&#8217;ve caused, where you discover that civilians were sheltering with the enemy, and &#8211; oh no &#8211; they&#8217;ve all been horribly killed. It&#8217;s a pure gotcha moment, and doesn&#8217;t even give the player the opportunity to think or weigh his actions against the lives of digital civilians before firing. In the context of the videogame, the firing of the white phosphorus is explicitly justified because it is the only way to continue to the end of the game. In narrative terms, it&#8217;s easy to read this as &#8216;sometimes you have to do horrible things in war&#8217; or &#8216;accidents happen,&#8217; but the writers heavy hand descends and makes the characters rationalise the event by blaming the enemy for the things they have done.

Now, type &#8216;white phosphorus civilians&#8217; into Google and see that most of the first page of links refer to Israel&#8217;s indiscriminate firing of white phosphorus into civilian areas. The obvious connection between the use of white phosphorus in Spec Ops and the implicit justification of such acts is offensive, poorly handled, and had hundreds of players stroking their neckbeards and posting on forums about how they understand that sometimes when you&#8217;re involved in imperialist conflicts in densely-populated foreign cities, you don&#8217;t have any good choices.

The easier connection is that it can easily be read as defending unnecessary real-world war crimes.

The whole scenario seems to make some very broad assumptions about the military attitudes towards civilian deaths. Who do they think invented the term &#8216;collateral damage?&#8217;

The man who planned and flew the bomber that dropped the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima said he slept fine at night and would do it again. Watch the Collateral Murder video and see the Apache crew practically begging for clearance to open fire on an unknown vehicle whose driver stopped to aid a wounded person, and after being informed that they seriously wounded two children riding in the back on the vehicle, one says &#8220;That&#8217;s what you get when you bring your kids to a warzone.&#8221; Astute readers will note that &#8216;warzone&#8217; refers the city where the children live, despite the reclassification by an invading foreign military. It&#8217;s similar to the constant blame shifting in Spec Ops but with one critical difference: they are blaming the victims themselves. I&#8217;m not trying to imply that this way of thinking is the rule, but there&#8217;s enough evidence to consider it a pervasive attitude.

Then there&#8217;s the fact that civilian appearances are incredibly contrived. For some reason, despite setting their game in a densely populated city, the American military takes centre-stage, leaving civilian appearances subject to a &#8220;strict rule.&#8221;

&#8220;&#8230; we had a strict rule from the beginning &#8211; there can be no civilians in the scene unless they&#8217;re [sic] is an absolute, real reason &#8211; there had to be an organic and narrative reason to have them in the scene. We didn&#8217;t want to just have civilians constantly running around the line of fire, because then we would be &#8216;The game where you can kill civilians all the time.&#8217;&#8221;

&#8211; Williams in Kotaku

Yager instead chose to take the military-apologist route and became &#8216;The game where you can only kill civilians in situations where we make you feel forced or threatened.&#8217; And why doesn&#8217;t &#8216;set in a city inhabited by two million people&#8217; count as an &#8216;organic reason&#8217; to have civilians running around? Especially given that they&#8217;re fearless enough to throw stones at armed, homicidal maniacs. My guess? It&#8217;s because giving a player the choice to kill/spare civilians during dynamic play undermines the narrative impact of their &#8216;non-decision&#8217; decisions, and as we all know that the Narrative is sacrosanct &#8212; so all civilian interactions must be discretely staged scenes.

I feel like I should also point out to Williams that &#8216;the game where you kill civilians all the time&#8217; already exists and it&#8217;s great. There&#8217;s more interesting narrative on the impassive horror of war-by-numbers in the emergent play of a twenty-minute game of DEFCON, than could be found in the convoluted narrative and painstakingly-modeled guilt-proxies of Spec Ops.

http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/spec-ops-the-line-is-a-bad-videogame/
 
Here are some criticisms of where Spec Ops' fails.

Part 1: http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/spec-ops-the-line-is-a-bad-videogame/

Part 2: http://theshillinfield.wordpress.com/2012/12/11/spec-ops-the-line-is-still-a-bad-videogame/

Some excerpts (more at the link)

Setting


The commentary on linearity

Pretty overblown criticisms...

I thought the locals spoke Arabic and Urdu. I was able to differentiate between their yelling, at least the Urdu part. I don't believe it was Farsi.

As for the second part, seriously? I mean, we have posters who have provided detailed explanation about Spec Ops' gameplay and it's approach to storytelling. I think those posts are better than whatever twobit wordpress bloggers provided.
 

Were these articles written by ErikB? The first passage you quoted is a legitimate criticism of some of the research done, but the author seems largely resentful of what he feels is the game's efforts to force him to feel bad via linear and forced actions, which is a gross simplification of what Yager was trying to accomplish.

In order to proceed through this section of the game the player is tasked with firing white phosphorus on an enemy position. Once wiped out, the game then walks you through the devastation you’ve caused, where you discover that civilians were sheltering with the enemy, and – oh no – they’ve all been horribly killed. It’s a pure gotcha moment, and doesn’t even give the player the opportunity to think or weigh his actions against the lives of digital civilians before firing.

The whole point of the white phosphorus segment, like much of the game, is that an alternative to Walker's actions is never even offered. It's a commentary on the types of games Spec Ops is evoking, where killing is just assumed and expected to be required to complete the game. Faulting the game for not including an option to choose to commit that particular atrocity completely misses the point--you have to stop playing the game to reject the use of white phosphorus. Spec Ops doesn't want you to feel bad about completing it, it wants you to question why the genre overall seems so appealing.
 

Trame

Member
I'm not sure why people associate "impact" with "choice". I'm convinced many here simply don't see games beyond anything but mechanics.
basically, if spec ops is criticizing the player, i don't think there can be any impact without choice. you can't give me one option and then criticize me for taking it. (i still don't think "stop playing" is so much of a choice as it is a cop-out for not doing something more interesting)

it's not the ENTIRE issue, because you can also read spec ops as criticizing soldiers or military culture, and it's primarily about criticizing the genre, but it's still something the game tries to do (e.g. lingering on the civilians you kill with white phosphorous) and it's why some people are posting about how they knew what the game was doing, weren't affected at all by the white phosphorous scene, etc., because for those people it was handled poorly.
 
At the white phosphorus scene i knew what the game was trying to do. So it had zero impact on me. Besides there is no choice to be made.
I thought te same thing. My thinking at the time was "That's an awful lot of 'people' in that area, soldiers are there, but these don't look like soldiers."

So by the time I found out, I was like "Yeah, sure, thought so."
 

ArjanN

Member
Haha no. It's an insult to think our agency only comes from transplanting ourselves into an avatar. It's simplistic and silly to assume this, especially with linear story driven experiences. Reminds me of that 'in game' video of the dude who thinks he is Commander Sheperd when he plays Mass Effect.

I think it's fairly obvious that for the majority of people it is about that whether they realize it or not. That's not even a videogame thing, most comics, books and movies do the same thing. You mention Shepard, but that's a pretty clear example of a character that's only really there to be a cooler stand-in for their intended audience.
 

daviyoung

Banned
I'm not sure why people associate "impact" with "choice". I'm convinced many here simply don't see games beyond anything but mechanics.

If anything the criticism in this thread has shown that there is an audience receptive, smart and eager enough to handle storylines of a mature, subversive, metaphorical and satirical nature. They understand it, they just don't like the execution or they think it's mishandled. The important thing is they see the attempt. That's enough.

The problem is Spec Ops panders to the wrong crowd and slips along the way, it went for those who think Halo is a cool dude who doesn't afraid of anything, and attempted to subvert their view of shooters. Obviously those people didn't play it. Whether analysing a genre within the same genre is a good idea is another discussion, but had they gone 100% the other way and aimed for an audience type similar to the critics in this thread, they would have found a far more suitable and valid fanbase.

I think it's fairly obvious that for the majority of people it is about that whether they realize it or not. That's not even a videogame thing, most comics, books and movies do the same thing. You mention Shepard, but that's a pretty clear example of a character that's only really there to be a cooler stand-in for their intended audience.

And it's a swing and a miss. Subverting a genre within the genre is a dangerous game when compromising, and Spec Ops didn't go far enough in either direction. When you want to handle stories like this, you really have to take it to the extreme for it to have any kind of impact.
 

I think that if a game can offer this much discussion on its finer points, it has merit and value. So it's leading somewhere good, even if one of the critisms is that it's focusing more on writing and trying to be a film rather than a game.

Agree a lot with the criticism though. I read the developer's intents and interviews and what they were trying to do, so won't go over those again.

Something that hasn't really come up is Walt William's GDC talk.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...ine_contextualizes_violence_through_story.php

He says the game is an experiment and part of the experiment was connecting the player emotionally to the kills. Kills in videogames are mundane and boring. Whereas kills in real life are impactful.

Part of the experiment is finding a way to connect the two.

Keep in mind his reference points for meaningful kills is high - he says the veterans he knows remembers all the soldiers they've killed. Or if you've hunted or slaughtered and skinned an animal. You'll likely remember that. (I had a goat skinned in front of me for dinner so I know I do).

Then the Willy Pete scene is trotted out again.

For me personally, WP did give me flashbacks to all the anti-war footage I've seen - funnily enough the Collateral Murder video that was referenced in the criticism and a bunch of other stuff I already mentioned in this thread. But that's about it.

His ambitions and what he's trying to do is interesting but I can't see it working. It'll be an incredibly hard task to do "meaningful kills." Most of us aren't emotionally invested in virtual game characters to care. Whereas if you imagined you yourself picking up a knife, sneaking into your mother's/sibling's/SO's room and stabbing them and watching their eyes go lifeless would probably make you stomach turn.

The closest thing would be permadeath in an MMO you've invested years into, but even that's a infinitely far reach. The biggest way to criticize the game and the game's approach, and it's already been done a lot, and by the game itself, is that it's all just fucking pixels, man. I'm surprised Clementine over at the TWD has so much love for her, but people are probably more empathetic to kids anyway.

On the other hand, the fact that we're discussing the game's finer points rather than Cpt Price or Soap flinging a knife into that bad guy's eye socket proves that it did suceed in generating something meaningful, even if it's very small. it's a good step in the right direction.
 

antitrop

Member
Pretty overblown criticisms...

Legitimate points that barely impact the actual enjoyment of the storyline at best. Nitpicks by most accounts. Inaccurate interpretations of the events at worst.

It doesn't read like the words of someone who played the game and formed their own opinion, it reads like the words of someone who went into the game with the distinct goal of finding flaws.

You can make any game sound pretty shitty like that. I could that for Doom. Not that I would want to.
Because that would be completely missing the point, which is what this guy has done.

He makes disingenous points to make himself sound like an intelectual coming up with some mind-blowing cynical criticism.
If this is the case, and it was simply a design aesthetic was after, why even set the game in real world locale? The apocalyptic sandstorm is pure fantasy, and beyond the superficial level design, nothing is intrinsically specific to Dubai.

Because the developers didn't have creative control over that. But please, feel free to continue lobbing ignorant slams at the game. Trash blog.
 
I definitely agree on the thinking that the game wasn't profound. But it certainly was a breath of fucking fresh air in the current climate of military shooters mixed in with some legitimately awesome and well executed moments.

My personal favourites were some of the music interludes, and the scene where you knock the guy down after zipping down the line and he morphs into Adams.
 

aravuus

Member
No, because I'm fucking awesome.

I did everything with the best possible outcome. I even noticed the mass of squirming white dots before I launched the WP at them, so I knew that the game was just trying to make me feel bad on purpose, so I bombed those civvies to hell and went "fuck you, game, I'll bomb the fuck out of innocent people and enjoy it if you don't give me another option."

Haha, the best post so far. I definitely agree.
 

antitrop

Member
Graphics were horrible, color pallette was shit

On consoles maybe. On PC it looks pretty great, with the only exception being the PS2-quality explosions (don't know how they didn't put a bit more effort into that).

As far as color pallette goes... sometimes it's fairly surprising. We're talking about a game that takes place in the middle east. I'm not even sure what more you would be expecting out of it... At least the entire game isn't brown. They actually attempted to have an art style, which is fairly commendable.

EyaUTZkl.jpg
 

antitrop

Member
His ending comparison to Mass Effect 3 is laughably fucking absurd.

Fans were pissed because they carried Shepard and his comrades through 3 entire long-as-fuck RPGs, full of meaningful dialogue and wonderful character interaction, only to end up with what they did after the developer promising the opposite.

Spec Ops is a four hour game with only a few choices that were never meant to have any impact on the actual outcome of the plot.

Black and White. Milk and Orange Juice. Sneakers and Boots. Trying too hard.
 

daviyoung

Banned
Yeah I think we can discount all of this dudes criticism if he claims the white phosphorus scene condones war crimes. I don't know how its even possible to misinterpret that so badly. Such failures of comprehension makes me question everything else he supposedly reads into the game.

well that's nice and convenient
 

bennyc12

Member
Then the infamous
White Phosphorous scene happens
. And you get to the area where civvies were holed up, and that
half burned woman with her kid
. Shit is nightmare fuel. It


This was pretty horrific. Having played a number of mindless space marine/military shooters, this scene has been the only time that a game really gave me
a sense of remorse and disgust at the fact that I had just killed so many people.

This game is like the anti-Journey. Whereas Journey evoked awe/joy/curiosity, Spec Ops prodded some of the darkest places in my mind.
 

Atrophis

Member
well that's nice and convenient

If you were reading a critique of To Kill a Mockingbird that stated the book is pro-racism, would you continue reading or take it seriously at all? This guy calls a resolutely anti-war game a pro-war, pro-war crimes title.

Should I also point out that he says Spec Ops is a very bad game (his bold) just because its linear?

His attack on the maturity of players who have an emotional reaction to the game?

Or how about about this little gem? "Also strange was that the regular Offended Crowd, who seemingly never miss an opportunity to curry favour with female readers by weighing in with their opinions on David Jaffe’s latest gaffe, failed to muster up the usual Twitter-storm of faux-outrage at the state of ‘their’ industry." Sexist, white knight claiming idiocy.

Yeah I think we can discount this blog post as some piss poor criticism.
 

daviyoung

Banned
It's an anti wargame game. But that's beside the point. There are some things that I disagree with in that critique, because it changes its focus frequently enough, but to dismiss the whole thing because of a couple of points screams of confirmation bias. Most of his points aren't linked in any intrinsic way and stand alone anyway.
 

Atrophis

Member
I have no problem with criticism of the game. I like it but I don't personally think it's the best thing since sliced bread and the story didn't have a huge impact on me.

Look I even went and wasted some time and read both articles and I have lots problems with his other points. Could have saved myself some time if I had stuck to my original premise that his criticism is a load of tosh.
 

Ermac

Proudly debt free. If you need a couple bucks, just ask.
Is there anywhere with a list of all those minor changes as the game progresses? Loved the trigger finger one.
 
He makes disingenous points to make himself sound like an intelectual coming up with some mind-blowing cynical criticism.
Not only that but it's the pinnacle of snobbish-ness to critique Dubai's treatment of expatriates and let out a moaning whimper of the fact that Spec Ops doesn't tackle that situation. Almost like as if he read a few of those reports from online blogs and he suddenly developed an air of authority over labor abuse in gulf countries and he can now show it off to his readers. Really fellow, if you want to get your voice heard about labor abuse, this is not the place.

I bet he hasn't set foot anywhere south of the equator.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Yes, it's fucking amazing. It should have gotten more awards.

The amount of details in that game... Jesus Christ... giant spoiler tag below.

Hidden sniper nests
The snipers names with tallies of people killed

Wall with Delta's pictures on it
Lugo is crossed out after a while

Normal billboards
After you do something horrible the eyes burn out/are painted out once you look away and look back
They are shutting their eyes because they cannot stand your atrocities

Only healthy tree in the area, everything is burnt to shit
Walk past it
Look back
It's dead

The mannequin scene
After that, see a mannequin
Melee it, it flashes into a real person before shattering

As the story goes on your executions become more brutal
Straight up kneecap a guy

Let Riggs die in the fire
Use your only bullet on the ibex
Achievement unlocked: The Deerhunter

Die enough
'Do you want to swap difficulties?'
Die some more
'Do you feel like a hero yet?'

Die in certain areas
The death screen doesn't appear
You just flash back to the start of the area, he shakes his head and goes, 'what the fuck?'

Entire list of the 33rd on a wall
All are crossed out except eight
Eight soldiers in the next room
'We surrender to you sir'
Go back
The eight are crossed out
Go back to the soldiers
They aren't there anymore

Pay attention to his trigger discipline

SOOOO FUCKING GOOOOOOD.

WOW. Fucking amazing list, fucking great pictures.

Fucking cool game.

I just beat it today, was thankfully never spoiled on it. Seriously, seriously cool. My ending:
Shot 'Konrad', surrendered my weapon to the patrol, and 'survived'.

I totally wasn't expecting the twist at the end, I seriously had no idea. I had a sense that Walker had gone off the deep end, but I didn't anticipate to what extent. The first hint I think I got of it was when Walker goes off on his own just for a moment, and in another room there's just one Heavy Arms guy, and when you shoot him, he teleports, and his after-image turns into a statue, and this keeps happening until he dies, at which point he just turns into another statue. I thought my game was messing up or something, and I thought it was cool, but kinda weird.

Also, I replayed the epilogue because I wondered what would happen if I decided to shoot the patrol, and was really surprised when the game actually continued, and didn't just keep throwing guys at you until you died ala
Halo: Reach.
Walker's last line "Gentlemen, welcome to Dubai" was fantastic.

I'm going to have to go through this again sometime soon, just to observe everything again, knowing what I know now.
 

Sblargh

Banned
One thing I do like about this game is that it never felt like a commentary on war itself, it looks to be strictly about war games. It's kind of what sets it apart from Apocalypse Now, imo, it's a commentary on the medium and our relationship with one of its more popular genres.

I would maybe compare it to comic books that act as commentary to super-heroes because the genre is so prevalent in that medium. Miracleman also had this quality of using gruesome scenes to show that this super-hero dude can be something really terrifying if we only remove the some unspoken rules out of the narrative.

This is what I felt with this game, in part. Unspoken rule of shooter is to not really think about those who you shoot or bomb, but here it is, they have names, problems of their own, good reasons for being the enemy and so on. It's not a commentary on war where thinking about those who you shoot (or developing psychological shields to prevent you from doing so) is an integral part of the narrative. It's about how war games doesn't really make us think about the horror thatis this one man capable of murdering hundreds of trained sodiers, just as we don't realize that an actual full blown super-hero battle would reduce London to ashes and corpses.
 
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