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[Armaros]

This raises some [more] plot hole questions. So Gandalf is cool with [apparently] giving ole 'Rog the business when his life depends on it or when it suits him. He's gimped... but not really. If it came down to it would he have offed Smaug? What's his stopping point? If a Balrog decided to not be content trolling away on some bullshit until he bumped into a sweet looking mark, and instead wanted to wreak havoc on the countryside would old man river intervene then? It all seems pretty subjective.

He is held back by his creators from using all his power to directly control the world of mortals. He can only advise and support where apporiate.

But the Balrog was of the old world and the old war, (it is a corrupted version of what Gandalf is) so he is obligated to stop it from reaching the outside world.

In other words he has to pull his punches for mortals, but ancient evil like the balrog is fair game.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

This raises some [more] plot hole questions. So Gandalf is cool with [apparently] giving ole 'Rog the business when his life depends on it or when it suits him. He's gimped... but not really. If it came down to it would he have offed Smaug? What's his stopping point? If a Balrog decided to not be content trolling away on some bullshit until he bumped into a sweet looking mark, and instead wanted to wreak havoc on the countryside would old man river intervene then? It all seems pretty subjective.

He might have been able to kill Smaug, though the dragon's high mobility and its fire breath would have been tough to manage, but he's not there to slay monsters. He's there to encourage and counsel. The balrog isn't some random monster, it's a being like him who's causing problems. Since the Valar aren't going to be coming over to rid the world of him, it's basically up to him to do it. Other people could possibly do it, but Gandalf was there at that moment and able, so he took it upon himself.

The balrog he fought was obviously in hiding, probably afraid of being destroyed like its brethren. It, like Sauron, probably fled at the end of War of the Jewels, to avoid getting destroyed. He didn't want to attack the countryside, because he was afraid of being killed (an army working as one could probably end him, since he'd be alone). When he attacked the fellowship he was just cleaning house, and bit off more than he wanted to chew. After he and Gandalf fall, he runs. It's Gandalf who has to chase him in underground caverns and then up to a mountain peak. The balrog only fights when he's cornered. Even then the match ends in a draw. Gandalf just had an extra life and the balrog didn't.

Balrogs can be killed by swords and the like, just like dragons (and wizards, for that matter - Saruman died from a knife wound, after all). This one in particular had lived in hiding for an age or more and was obviously afraid for its life. Gandalf opted to try and kill him to rid the world of probably the last of his ilk, who are spirits like Gandalf. Smaug is not, and can (and was) taken down by conventional weapons. Actually, one solid shot and a lake killed him.

But again, the wizards are not there to be warriors. The balrog was a special circumstance.

 

[BetterThanNothing]

This raises some [more] plot hole questions. So Gandalf is cool with [apparently] giving ole 'Rog the business when his life depends on it or when it suits him. He's gimped... but not really. If it came down to it would he have offed Smaug? What's his stopping point? If a Balrog decided to not be content trolling away on some bullshit until he bumped into a sweet looking mark, and instead wanted to wreak havoc on the countryside would old man river intervene then? It all seems pretty subjective.

The problem is that the movies required a move to a visual spectrum, which forces a pure description of what is happening on screen. The fight in the books is known about from Gandalf's meeting with Aragon and company in the forest in TTT, not as a dream of Frodo's as in the movies. He just says he fought this dude, basically. No real description, and from what can be told about Balrogs and Gandalf's kind in the books is that this was really a battle of powers that are incomprehensible to mankind, or even elven kind, really. It's why the Balrog took out half a mountain with it, its elemental makeup is just different. That's why Gandalf tells everyone to run; they actually cannot fight this thing. It's not even about physical strength.

The whole point is that Gandalf's power to influence directly through physical means is limited, so his ability to fight anyone is quite subjective. His power comes in the form of influence the hearts of others, which was done after the gods of middle earth tried to interfere with it physically and ended up bitchslapping the world so hard it turned into a fucking sphere. Gandalf and friends are their to affect the surrounding world by the beings that are physically held to that realm, partly because of what was previously mentioned and partly because they can't be relied upon once the age of Men(4th age) comes. They're basically foster parents to everyone on the planet.

 

[Celcius]

Now I wish the 2nd part of that Balrog fight had been in the movies, if even only briefly shown.

 

[Christine]

He might have been able to kill Smaug, though the dragon's high mobility and its fire breath would have been tough to manage, but he's not there to slay monsters. He's there to encourage and counsel. The balrog isn't some random monster, it's a being like him who's causing problems. Since the Valar aren't going to be coming over to rid the world of him, it's basically up to him to do it. Other people could possibly do it, but Gandalf was there at that moment and able, so he took it upon himself.

The balrog he fought was obviously in hiding, probably afraid of being destroyed like its brethren. It, like Sauron, probably fled at the end of War of the Jewels, to avoid getting destroyed. He didn't want to attack the countryside, because he was afraid of being killed (an army working as one could probably end him, since he'd be alone). When he attacked the fellowship he was just cleaning house, and bit off more than he wanted to chew. After he and Gandalf fall, he runs. It's Gandalf who has to chase him in underground caverns and then up to a mountain peak. The balrog only fights when he's cornered. Even then the match ends in a draw. Gandalf just had an extra life and the balrog didn't.

Balrogs can be killed by swords and the like, just like dragons (and wizards, for that matter - Saruman died from a knife wound, after all). This one in particular had lived in hiding for an age or more and was obviously afraid for its life. Gandalf opted to try and kill him to rid the world of probably the last of his ilk, who are spirits like Gandalf. Smaug is not, and can (and was) taken down by conventional weapons. Actually, one solid shot and a lake killed him.

But again, the wizards are not there to be warriors. The balrog was a special circumstance.

All the backstory and world building content is neat and everything, but I think that in some sense these explanations aren't as relevant or as important as the justification that exists internal to the narrative in which the scene occurs. I mentioned before that this is Gandalf backed into a corner, forced to sacrifice himself to ensure the escape of the party he protects and the hope that their greater mission will succeed. It is the resolution of a theme in which Gandalf comes to know regret and terror in the feeling that his guidance is in error and that he has made a mistake in taking the fellowship through Moria. This theme is incredibly important, because until this point both the party and the reader are content to trust in Gandalf's knowledge and wisdom nearly absolutely. If Gandalf tells you something you believe that it's true and where there are limits to what he knows you assume that the knowledge is lost, not to be found again. When he gives advice it is assuredly the right thing to do.

The secret entrance is really the first place you see Gandalf at a loss. He spends over an hour pacing back and forth trying to remember his login credentials. It honestly should be easy for him to remember how the password hint works but the relationship it relies on is gone, lost to time and death and a world gradually becoming unpinned. Friendship with and of the Dwarves of Moria has passed from the world, and that is the entire reason that going through Moria is not a useful route where they might encounter allies but the worst and most dangerous path they could have taken.

The escalation of dread that occurs throughout the passage of Moria would be empty filler if Gandalf didn't fall. There would be no point to it at all if the party that emerged were no different than the party that entered. The reason it matters is that at the end of the book the fellowship has lost both their guide and their surety in the wisdom of guides.

 

[Kieli]

Killing a Balrog isn't that impressive considering that in the Silmarillion, regular elves were slaying them left, right and centre. Fingolfin even got the better of Morgoth in single combat, despite being unable to kill him as he was immortal.

What are you talking about. Fingolfin lost the duel and was killed by Morgoth, although he put up a helluva fight.

But the way you say "regular" does disservice to the elves and men in the first age. They were way, way stronger than the elves and men of the third age (e.g. Hobbit & LoTR).

 

[Cuburt]

But what about his fireworks?

Would you call something that can delight and astound the Hobbits nothing more than a cheap trick?

 

[Celcius]

Thanks to this thread I just spent the past hour reading about middle earth lol.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

All the backstory and world building content is neat and everything, but I think that in some sense these explanations aren't as relevant or as important as the justification that exists internal to the narrative in which the scene occurs. I mentioned before that this is Gandalf backed into a corner, forced to sacrifice himself to ensure the escape of the party he protects and the hope that their greater mission will succeed. It is the resolution of a theme in which Gandalf comes to know regret and terror in the feeling that his guidance is in error and that he has made a mistake in taking the fellowship through Moria. This theme is incredibly important, because until this point both the party and the reader are content to trust in Gandalf's knowledge and wisdom nearly absolutely. If Gandalf tells you something you believe that it's true and where there are limits to what he knows you assume that the knowledge is lost, not to be found again. When he gives advice it is assuredly the right thing to do.

The secret entrance is really the first place you see Gandalf at a loss. He spends over an hour pacing back and forth trying to remember his login credentials. It honestly should be easy for him to remember how the password hint works but the relationship it relies on is gone, lost to time and death and a world gradually becoming unpinned. Friendship with and of the Dwarves of Moria has passed from the world, and that is the entire reason that going through Moria is not a useful route where they might encounter allies but the worst and most dangerous path they could have taken.

The escalation of dread that occurs throughout the passage of Moria would be empty filler if Gandalf didn't fall. There would be no point to it at all if the party that emerged were no different than the party that entered. The reason it matters is that at the end of the book the fellowship has lost both their guide and their surety in the wisdom of guides.

I completely agree. It's also super important because Frodo has come to rely on Gandalf like a crutch, hampering both his character growth and would later on hamper the plot. Gandalf would have kept the fellowship together as long as he could, probably longer than when it actually happens. They also probably wouldn't have taken in Gollum. Frodo knows that isn't a wise decision (even Sam mentions it) but he does it anyways. Yet that choice ultimately allows the quest to succeed. A lot of the book takes time to show how being wise isn't the greatest of all assets. It's important sure, but wisdom falters and fails at times, and there are other qualities you can depend on when that happens. All of this is wrapped up in an awesome plot moment and an important thematic moment! (And people still say Tolkien can world-build but can't write. I always give a huge eye roll at that comment. What they really mean is that isn't how they would right it.) Gandalf himself says it in Moria before the balrog, when Frodo laments that Bilbo didn't kill Gollum all those years ago:

Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many – yours not least.

I've quoted the whole of it, because there at the end he alludes to another one of those qualities besides wisdom when he's talking about his heart. That whole Moria sequence just kicks ass, for all of these reasons. You delved more deeply into the material than I did in my response, and yup, I think you're 100% correct.

 

[Horsefly]

doom-boom, doom-boom