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[Fluffernutter Pancake]

Hell yes. It's not something people seek in order to live beyond their means. It's not a new car, house or some other vanity project - it's simply an instrument used to survive, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes. And it's not a hard argument to win, honestly.

Replace "healthcare" with "roads."

We have roads. They're useful. They're a public good. Very few people "worked" for those roads. But we nonetheless expect those roads to exist, because those roads provide people with opportunities. So we imbue our government with the responsibility of creating and maintaining our roads. We pay taxes in order to diffuse the overall cost of doing that work.

Inevitably, there will be people who use roads wastefully or dangerously. The presence of roads means that someone will drive drunk on them and potentially hurt or kill others.

That inevitability doesn't make us say "Let's get rid of roads." Instead, it invites us to deal with those accompanying issues in other ways. But the public good remains for all to use because that's fundamentally better for everyone.

Whether it's a "right" or not is more of a rhetorical question to me - claiming "rights" is a way to shortcut a larger argument about authority and need. But we have the resources to transform healthcare into a public good, just like roads, and we should.

Please go up to your doctor (particularly a specialist, if you ever need one), and tell them that their training, daily work, tools, equipment, medicine, and facilities are on the same level as road maintenance, building a house, or even building a car. That they are merely "an instrument used to survive, nothing more, nothing less."

Before making such statements, please just try to comprehend the amount of resources that goes into each of those things. And when it comes to resources, please include the time & sacrifice spent by each and every physician for over a decade (usually at least 15 years), as well as the time & money resources spent to research, develop & manufacture every single piece of new medical equipment that is used to treat you. Oh, and don't forget the power to run all those facilities and machines ---- ask your doctor how much power an MRI machine takes to run, and how much time & skill it takes to analyze the results that come after them.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I obviously acknowledge that this can only happen in rich and developed countries. Which the US is.

Otherwise, how is this happening in Spain? Magic? And there are a lot of people travelling for free from many points of Spain to get the same treatment as me. The Canary Islands is the worst case scenario in terms of how much the travel will cost, sure, but still, my point remains.

My point is that if the Canary Islands was the size of the US and was required to actually develop & manufacture all of the technology, facilities & skilled physicians to treat anyone & everyone that has a particular disease such as yours, there is no way under the sun that it would be possible to get what you got (and to have every other person in your country who needs it get the same).

 

[Skyr]

I'm very very thankfull that this is the case in my country.

Especially when I read about the INSANE medical bills that US citizens without healthcare have to cover.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Please go up to your doctor (particularly a specialist, if you ever need one), and tell them that their training, daily work, tools, equipment, medicine, and facilities are on the same level as road maintenance, building a house, or even building a car. That they are merely "an instrument used to survive, nothing more, nothing less."

Before making such statements, please just try to comprehend the amount of resources that goes into each of those things. And when it comes to resources, please include the time & sacrifice spent by each and every physician for over a decade (usually at least 15 years), as well as the time & money resources spent to research, develop & manufacture every single piece of new medical equipment that is used to treat you. Oh, and don't forget the power to run all those facilities and machines ---- ask your doctor how much power an MRI machine takes to run, and how much time & skill it takes to analyze the results that come after them.



My point is that if the Canary Islands was the size of the US and was required to actually develop & manufacture all of the technology, facilities & skilled physicians to treat anyone & everyone that has a particular disease such as yours, there is no way under the sun that it would be possible to get what you got (and to have every other person in your country who needs it get the same).

You do know that most doctors support the idea of healthcare expansion right?

 

[shiyrley]

Please go up to your doctor (particularly a specialist, if you ever need one), and tell them that their training, daily work, tools, equipment, medicine, and facilities are on the same level as road maintenance, building a house, or even building a car. That they are merely "an instrument used to survive, nothing more, nothing less."

Before making such statements, please just try to comprehend the amount of resources that goes into each of those things. And when it comes to resources, please include the time & sacrifice spent by each and every physician for over a decade (usually at least 15 years), as well as the time & money resources spent to research, develop & manufacture every single piece of new medical equipment that is used to treat you. Oh, and don't forget the power to run all those facilities and machines ---- ask your doctor how much power an MRI machine takes to run, and how much time & skill it takes to analyze the results that come after them.



My point is that if the Canary Islands was the size of the US and was required to actually develop & manufacture all of the technology, facilities & skilled physicians to treat anyone & everyone that has a particular disease such as yours, there is no way under the sun that it would be possible to get what you got (and to have every other person in your country who needs it get the same).

Do you believe Spain to be a small country? You keep talking as if only people from the islands could get what I got

The US is much bigger. It's also much richer.

 

[Crispy75]

That sounds fantastic. It sounds like what could be available in the US if the Earth had unlimited resources, no one wanted to kill each other and there were no other long-term external physical threats to humanity (minimal military spending required), and there were enough bright, motivated, dedicated people to undergo the extreme sacrifices of training & career of being in the medical field, devoted either to research or treatment.

If Spain can afford this, the USA can *easily* afford this.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Please go up to your doctor (particularly a specialist, if you ever need one), and tell them that their training, daily work, tools, equipment, medicine, and facilities are on the same level as road maintenance, building a house, or even building a car. That they are merely "an instrument used to survive, nothing more, nothing less."

Before making such statements, please just try to comprehend the amount of resources that goes into each of those things. And when it comes to resources, please include the time & sacrifice spent by each and every physician for over a decade (usually at least 15 years), as well as the time & money resources spent to research, develop & manufacture every single piece of new medical equipment that is used to treat you. Oh, and don't forget the power to run all those facilities and machines ---- ask your doctor how much power an MRI machine takes to run, and how much time & skill it takes to analyze the results that come after them.

Nobody is arguing that those doctors didn't put a lot of time and effort into their education and work now. But that access to use that should be open to all, and organized in such a way by government regulation that they can offer their services to those who need it. While still being rewarded for their hard work.

My point is that if the Canary Islands was the size of the US and was required to actually develop & manufacture all of the technology, facilities & skilled physicians to treat anyone & everyone that has a particular disease such as yours, there is no way under the sun that it would be possible to get what you got (and to have every other person in your country who needs it get the same).

If the Canary Islands were the size of the US, they would have the people and resources. Just like they have now being part of Spain. They are also developing cures and medical things in Spain, Germany, UK, etc. The US being the size it is should actually make healthcare more affordable in a lot of ways, since you got more people to pay for it.

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

You do know that most doctors support the idea of healthcare expansion right?

Is that what we are talking about here? That's not what I've read in 99% of the posts in this thread.

BTW, I am very close to a medical specialist and that person (and all whom she works with) absolutely do not agree with even your statement of "healthcare expansion".

They are already stretched extremely thin and are needing to cut back on the thoroughness of their care to accommodate the growing demand --- and that is with current limits of coverage availability.

 

[Vanillalite]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I obviously acknowledge that this can only happen in rich and developed countries. Which the US is.

Otherwise, how is this happening in Spain? Magic? And there are a lot of people travelling for free from many points of Spain to get the same treatment as me. The Canary Islands is the worst case scenario in terms of how much the travel will cost, sure, but still, my point remains.

Is there a point in which X number of people at Y cost couldn't be done because of money?

If yes then ≠ unlimited.

I feel like I'm bogged down in a semantics argument here.

 

[dl77]

Absolutely it is. If your decision on who gets medical treatment is based upon which one of them can line your pockets then you're an awful person and I hope you have a miserable life.

As a Brit we're lucky enough to have a national health service that everyone's entitled to use regardless of income. The idea of living in a country where my child would be allowed to be seriously ill and possibly die of something easily treatable because we couldn't afford treatment makes me both furious and genuinely sick to my stomach.

 

[Sweeney Tom]

Absolutely

 

[shiyrley]

Is that what we are talking about here? That's not what I've read in 99% of the posts in this thread.

BTW, I am very close to a medical specialist and that person (and all whom she works with) absolutely do not agree with even your statement of "healthcare expansion".

They are already stretched extremely thin and are needing to cut back on the thoroughness of their care to accommodate the growing demand --- and that is with current limits of coverage availability.

You keep dodging the fact that a less rich country of very respectable size has universal healthcare with zero problems.

Is there a point in which X number of people at Y cost couldn't be done because of money?

If yes then ≠ unlimited.

I feel like I'm bogged down in a semantics argument here.

It's being enough to cover everything and everyone. It's sustainable.

 

[Horp]

I don't know what "a right" refers to in this case. I mean, we aren't praying to god; we are electing people to represent us. We should elect people that provides us with what we believe we are entitled to us.

 

[hoserx]

I'm very very thankfull that this is the case in my country.

Especially when I read about the INSANE medical bills that US citizens without healthcare have to cover.

You should see the insane bills that US citizens have to cover even if they HAVE insurance!

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

Another note: People in this thread are speaking as though physicians should have no free will to run businesses as they choose and that the state should force them to provide their services for whatever fee they deem appropriate. Physicians go through extreme sacrifices and must be extremely dedicated and motivated people to make it through that process and to continue that process as a career for decades. It is extremely grueling both physically and mentally. When you reduce such training & preparation down to a basic service and regulate everything that they can do and what they can make, then that strips all of the motivation from those individuals to actually go through such a thorough process and become so well prepared.

We could churn out millions of physicians per year if we were willing to significantly lower the standards, and you'd be happy to be operated upon with something with as much training as a typical trade school graduate. How would quality of care be maintained? Do you think malpractice payouts would increase at all? How would those be handled? Would you even be treated properly compared to today's top standards if training standards were relaxed so significantly as that which would be required to offer universal healthcare to all who need it when they need it?

 

[Jintor]

Nah mate. Australia has free healthcare up to a point and our doctors are fucking dope as shit.

 

[witchedwiz]

I'm very very thankfull that this is the case in my country.

Especially when I read about the INSANE medical bills that US citizens without healthcare have to cover.

this over and over

 

[Majora]

Why is Fluffernutter Pancake acting as though all these 'gotcha!' arguments he's pulling out of his ass haven't already been addressed across Europe for decades now?

 

[Alavard]

Another note: People in this thread are speaking as though physicians should have no free will to run businesses as they choose and that the state should force them to provide their services for whatever fee they deem appropriate. Physicians go through extreme sacrifices and must be extremely dedicated and motivated people to make it through that process and to continue that process as a career for decades. It is extremely grueling both physically and mentally. When you reduce such training & preparation down to a basic service and regulate everything that they can do and what they can make, then that strips all of the motivation from those individuals to actually go through such a thorough process and become so well prepared.

We could churn out millions of physicians per year if we were willing to significantly lower the standards, and you'd be happy to be operated upon with something with as much training as a typical trade school graduate. How would quality of care be maintained? Do you think malpractice payouts would increase at all? How would those be handled? Would you even be treated properly compared to today's top standards if training standards were relaxed so significantly as that which would be required to offer universal healthcare to all who need it when they need it?

Stop acting like countries like Canada or all the others with universal healthcare are treating doctors like slaves.

 

[boiled goose]

It can be.

And the US can afford it.

How come tax cuts and increases in military spending don't get the same push back?

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

Stop acting like countries like Canada are treating doctors like slaves.

Stop hyperbolizing my posts and actually address the content, please.

 

[shiyrley]

When you reduce such training & preparation down to a basic service and regulate everything that they can do and what they can make, then that strips all of the motivation from those individuals to actually go through such a thorough process and become so well prepared.

Yes, that's why there are no talented doctors in Spain. Or the rest of freaking Europe. Or Canada. Or any civilised country. Just because it's a basic service doesn't mean doctors don't earn big salaries. Because they do.

I mean, what kind of point are you making? People won't be motivated to prepare to be a doctor because they will be doing surgeries in both rich and poor people instead of only rich people? I don't think I wanna have people like that as doctors.

You keep ignoring the fact that what you believe to be impossible is happening in a lot of countries with zero issues. And I will keep pointing it out.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

It can be.

And the US can afford it.

How come tax cuts and increases in military spending don't get the same push back?

because the rich "worked" hard for their money and deserves to buy a porsche while someone dies in the streets because he was a lazy POS. duh

 

[Alavard]

Stop hyperbolizing my posts and actually address the content, please.

You just literally said the following:

Another note: People in this thread are speaking as though physicians should have no free will to run businesses as they choose and that the state should force them to provide their services for whatever fee they deem appropriate.

 

[danthefan]

It absolutely should be imo.

In favor - Society gains. It costs less. It's humane.
Against - bootstraps

 

[Majora]

Stop hyperbolizing my posts and actually address the content, please.

Because it's your worst argument yet, as would be self-evident to anyone with any knowledge of the standard and quantity of doctors in countries with free healthcare.

Are you operating under some bizarre misapprehension that countries like the UK, Canada, Australia, Germany, France and much of Europe are drowning in swathes of badly trained doctors or something?

 

[boiled goose]

Another note: People in this thread are speaking as though physicians should have no free will to run businesses as they choose and that the state should force them to provide their services for whatever fee they deem appropriate. Physicians go through extreme sacrifices and must be extremely dedicated and motivated people to make it through that process and to continue that process as a career for decades. It is extremely grueling both physically and mentally. When you reduce such training & preparation down to a basic service and regulate everything that they can do and what they can make, then that strips all of the motivation from those individuals to actually go through such a thorough process and become so well prepared.

We could churn out millions of physicians per year if we were willing to significantly lower the standards, and you'd be happy to be operated upon with something with as much training as a typical trade school graduate. How would quality of care be maintained? Do you think malpractice payouts would increase at all? How would those be handled? Would you even be treated properly compared to today's top standards if training standards were relaxed so significantly as that which would be required to offer universal healthcare to all who need it when they need it?

As someone with actual insight into the process:

You're mostly full of crap. The whole process is fucked in the US since it stacks horrible conditions and debt initially with promise of big payout later. This can all be restructured.

The people going into medical school are insane in both good and bad ways but don't need to be. The whole process is so tough that few people do it for right reasons and few people end up as primary care doctors. If restructured and smoothed out, you could get more, better, happier, less expensive doctors.

Right now the system fucks everyone except the ones at the very top.

 

[Monocle]

No, a person's net worth is obviously directly tied to their societal value and personal merit. Just look at someone like Ronald Dump. Clearly a superior human specimen who deserves the best health care way more than anyone slaving away for minimum wage.

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

Why is Fluffernutter Pancake acting as though all these 'gotcha!' arguments he's pulling out of his ass haven't already been addressed across Europe for decades now?

Because they haven't ---- people keep "pulling out of their asses" examples like how wonder of treatment they got as members of countries that have 2 million, 40 million, 60 million population sizes, with a fraction of the military spending to spend in order to maintain world stability, and which contribute a fraction of the resources to the advancement of medical research, manufacturing of specialized equipment/drugs etc. , and whose general medical specialist physicians are likely no where near as rigorously trained as those in a country such as the US.

This argument really would be solved if the US just pulled the plug on its current medical training, research & manufacturing industries and emulated exactly what these others countries did, down to the ratios of spending per population size, amount of resources (money AND time)dedicated to training, research, manufacturing etc.

If this was done, do you think medical standards and advancement of medical care, knowledge and discoveries would increase, stay the same or decrease? My bet is that it would severely and devastatingly decrease.

 

[shiyrley]

Also, Canada is 9,093,507 km^2 while the USA is 9,161,966 km^2, barely bigger. But, yeah, Fluffernutter Pancake is right. Universal healthcare in the USA isn't possible because the country is too big!

 

[Crispy75]

whose general medical specialist physicians are likely no where near as rigorously trained as those in a country such as the US.

Oh
My
God

Sorry, I forgot to add some content to my post.
The USA is not the only country in the world that trains its doctors well.

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

As someone with actual insight into the process:

You're mostly full of crap. The whole process is fucked in the US since it stacks horrible conditions and debt initially with promise of big payout later. This can all be restructured.

The people going into medical school are insane in both good and bad ways but don't need to be. The whole process is so tough that few people do it for right reasons and few people end up as primary care doctors. If restructured and smoothed out, you could get more, better, happier, less expensive doctors.

Right now the system fucks everyone except the ones at the very top.

You say I'm full of crap without actually addressing a single thing I've said.

With that said, I will say that you are NOT full of crap. I agree 100% with your entire post.

The system in the US can and should be restructured when it comes to the way it stacks horrible conditions & debt during training with promise of big payout later. That is true.

With that said, I still think it is an impossible pipe dream to maintain the quality of care, research, manufacturing & medical discovery advancements if one decides to try to offer unlimited free healthcare to every citizen in a 300+ million population country, when no other larger sized country will be there be step in and shoulder the costs to maintain the ever-needed continuation of medical research, manufacturing etc.

 

[shiyrley]

and whose general medical specialist physicians are likely no where near as rigorously trained as those in a country such as the US.

I can understand dodging questions and facts and in general ignoring me because I presented you with facts that prove you are wrong and you aren't willing to admit it, but can you at least not lie?

 

[Crispy75]

unlimited free healthcare

Not unlimited
Not free - just paid for by taxation
You can maintain your current research etc. spending, just change the way it's funded and cut out all the parasitic middlemen.

 

[xBladeM6x]

My answer, yes. Absolutely yes.


However those who generally seem to live in my area are super conservative and against for all kinds of nonsensical reasons. The most consistent reason I've heard to be against it, is a libertarian argument which always points out how "If you do drugs and fuck your body all up, why should I have to work to pay for your sorry ass?!". It seems to always be about apathy for your neighbor and self-interest (which is hilarious because this would absolutely help many of the people rejecting it).

Given I live near the Canadian border, I hear people advocating for health care as a right, and always point to Canada because it's, by proximity, an example of centralized healthcare, and the response is always some anecdotal story about their brother's cousin's twice removed grandmother's aunt's ex-husbands lover's father who had a cold one time and had to wait like 3 weeks to see a doctor, so that means we shouldn't do centralized healthcare at all. (I can't tell you how often I hear this, and it's fucking infuriating)

 

[Gravy Boat]

Another note: People in this thread are speaking as though physicians should have no free will to run businesses as they choose and that the state should force them to provide their services for whatever fee they deem appropriate. Physicians go through extreme sacrifices and must be extremely dedicated and motivated people to make it through that process and to continue that process as a career for decades. It is extremely grueling both physically and mentally. When you reduce such training & preparation down to a basic service and regulate everything that they can do and what they can make, then that strips all of the motivation from those individuals to actually go through such a thorough process and become so well prepared.

We could churn out millions of physicians per year if we were willing to significantly lower the standards, and you'd be happy to be operated upon with something with as much training as a typical trade school graduate. How would quality of care be maintained? Do you think malpractice payouts would increase at all? How would those be handled? Would you even be treated properly compared to today's top standards if training standards were relaxed so significantly as that which would be required to offer universal healthcare to all who need it when they need it?

Other countries with universal healthcare don't have this issue, and private healthcare still exists if people want to pay more for what they perceive to be better treatment, so people can still open private practices if they want.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

It's not a natural right in the meaning the Enlightenment gave to rights. It goes beyond a principle of not agression or opression, and requires active work.
Fortunately this is not the 18th Century and we have realized socialized services are the best way of running a prosperous society.

Please go up to your doctor (particularly a specialist, if you ever need one), and tell them that their training, daily work, tools, equipment, medicine, and facilities are on the same level as road maintenance, building a house, or even building a car. That they are merely "an instrument used to survive, nothing more, nothing less."

Before making such statements, please just try to comprehend the amount of resources that goes into each of those things. And when it comes to resources, please include the time & sacrifice spent by each and every physician for over a decade (usually at least 15 years), as well as the time & money resources spent to research, develop & manufacture every single piece of new medical equipment that is used to treat you. Oh, and don't forget the power to run all those facilities and machines ---- ask your doctor how much power an MRI machine takes to run, and how much time & skill it takes to analyze the results that come after them.



My point is that if the Canary Islands was the size of the US and was required to actually develop & manufacture all of the technology, facilities & skilled physicians to treat anyone & everyone that has a particular disease such as yours, there is no way under the sun that it would be possible to get what you got (and to have every other person in your country who needs it get the same).

The Canary Islands pay their share of R&D when they buy medical gear, drugs, pay their doctors... And participates in said research as well. You have no idea how the economy works.
Here in Spain you need an insane grade in high school to even start studying medicine, then you have 6 years of undergraduate studies, then 4 years of paid specialist studies then years of experience before you become a full fledged doctor. We pay them good salaries with our taxes, and we get world-class universal healthcare while doing valuable research. It's been underfunded by our rightwing but still works very well. The EU is as big as the US, and all its countries have universal healthcare and perform lots of research, constantly inventing new treatments.
You pay your taxes and in turn receive state of the art medical treatment when you need it. This was invented halfway the 20th Century, and it works. There are rich people here, and they have their Porsches. Also, because medical school is public too, it's not nearly as financially prohibitive and it's not only the top 10% who can afford it, hence we have a bigger pool to take future doctors from. It's not perfect by any means and I think tuition should be free like in Germany, but it's alright.
FYI I'm an undergraduate student in a world-class university in my field. (Economics) My tuition is around 1300€ a year.

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

I can understand dodging questions and facts and in general ignoring me because I presented you with facts that prove you are wrong and you aren't willing to admit it, but can you at least not lie?

Oh
My
God

Sorry, I forgot to add some content to my post.
The USA is not the only country in the world that trains its doctors well.

Before everyone tries to pile on and imply that this says something it doesn't: "Rigorous" isn't equivalent to "well-trained".

You have to define "well". I don't know the extent of training in every single country, but I'm sure some approach or may even exceed that of the US.

With that said, try maintaining or expanding that quality of training to the # of people needed to provide unlimited specialist healthcare to every single person on earth (or even the 350 million in the US for starters).

Not unlimited
Not free - just paid for by taxation
You can maintain your current research etc. spending, just change the way it's funded and cut out all the parasitic middlemen.

If it's not unlimited, then what have people been talking about fort he past 6 pages?

There have been countless posts about "Homeless people need the same access to treatment as billionaires" etc. Sorry, but that only happens if coverage is unlimited.

 

[boiled goose]

You say I'm full of crap without actually addressing a single thing I've said.

With that said, I will say that you are NOT full of crap. I agree 100% with your entire post.

The system in the US can and should be restructured when it comes to the way it stacks horrible conditions & debt during training with promise of big payout later. That is true.

With that said, I still think it is an impossible pipe dream to maintain the quality of care, research, manufacturing & medical discovery advancements if one decides to try to offer unlimited free healthcare to every citizen in a 300+ million population country, when no other larger sized country will be there be step in and shoulder the costs to maintain the ever-needed continuation of medical research, manufacturing etc.

But you're making assertions without numbers. Free Health-care is not really free. It's still paid for.

The question is how much money do we save as a society by letting people die or not letting them get preventative care? Having a sick, uneducated population is not savings. It's a fucking expensive anchor. Education and health are not costs they're investments

Our military spending is outrageously unnecessary. You talk about innovation, but as a country we are grossly underspending in research and education.

The US is still the richest country in the world. We have a ton of money, people, and natural resources. The money is all being funneled to the very wealthy (the same people who perpetuate the propaganda you've bought into).

Our healthcare system is worse and more expensive. It almost can't be worse.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

I dont know the answer but I know I have a water bill every month and that SHOULD BE FREE! (Might not be the best analogy)

 

[Hierophant]

universal health care works in literally every other single western country, what makes it such that the US is so special and can't deal with it? (other than the monied up interests of the insurance lobbies)

 

[boiled goose]

I dont know the answer but I know I have a water bill every month and that SHOULD BE FREE! (Might not be the best analogy)

I can imagine a society with a max number of "free" water per person. Go over limit you start paying.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Is that what we are talking about here? That's not what I've read in 99% of the posts in this thread.

BTW, I am very close to a medical specialist and that person (and all whom she works with) absolutely do not agree with even your statement of "healthcare expansion".

They are already stretched extremely thin and are needing to cut back on the thoroughness of their care to accommodate the growing demand --- and that is with current limits of coverage availability.

And people want the government, insurance agencies, etc, to give proper resources to those doctors so they don't have to cut back coverage.

You don't solve that problem by limiting coverage to less people. You fix it by investing in training more people. This also has the added effect of catching serious diseases earlier when you have people go to the doctors easier, and then saving on more expensive treatments later on.

Of course there is always a trade off with costs, but that should not get in the way of giving people basic treatment.

I dont know the answer but I know I have a water bill every month and that SHOULD BE FREE! (Might not be the best analogy)

Water might as well be free at the prices most countries pay. But you want some costs to it to prevent abuse.

 

[CloudWolf]

People who don't believe healthcare is a basic human right scare me.

 

[Fluffernutter Pancake]

But you're making assertions without numbers. Free Health-care is not really free. It's still paid for.

The question is how much money do we save as a society by letting people die or not letting them get preventative care? Having a sick, uneducated population is not savings. It's a fucking expensive anchor. Education and health are not costs they're investments

Our military spending is outrageously unnecessary. You talk about innovation, but as a country we are grossly underspending in research and education.

The US is still the richest country in the world. We have a ton of money, people, and natural resources. The money is all being funneled to the very wealthy (the same people who perpetuate the propaganda you've bought into).

In one of my earliest posts in here, I state that I am all for free preventative care for all --- that is a FANTASTIC thing that I think, while not a "right", is a service that the government should make sure is available in a timely manner to all of its citizens.

The "right not to die", however, is the impossible pipe dream --- there are only so many specialists (with maintained standards), only so many cancer meds & facilities, only so many livers, hearts etc. to go around.

And how does offering free treatment to all sick citizens encourage healthy living? People in here have already said things like "no, the drunk shouldn't be penalized --- you can't nitpick whether smoking or heavy constant drinking is costing everyone more when they go for cancer treatments, liver transplants etc.".

Why should anyone have the motivation to live healthily if they will just get bailed out by their neighbor when they need a triple bypass? Sure, some rational-thinking people will stay healthy to avoid hospital stays and live-threatening circumstances, but for those countless people out there that don't think that far ahead, there will be no motivation to actually take care of themselves. If anything happens to them, the state-run medical system has got their back, free of charge.

 

[boiled goose]

And people want the government, insurance agencies, etc, to give proper resources to those doctors so they don't have to cut back coverage.

You don't solve that problem by limiting coverage to less people. You fix it by investing in training more people. This also has the added effect of catching serious diseases earlier when you have people go to the doctors easier, and then saving on more expensive treatments later on.

Of course there is always a trade off with costs, but that should not get in the way of giving people basic treatment.

What's ultimately gross about the extrapolation of the argument is that wealthy people deserve to survive and poor people don't.

If healthcare is finite rich people should get it. That's the argument. Not only gross at face value but made more problematic that the biggest predictor of wealth is not effort, but wealth of parents.

It's classist, elitist, effectively asking for a caste system where some people are worth more than others just because

 

[Vanillalite]

If it's not unlimited, then what have people been talking about fort he past 6 pages?

There have been countless posts about "Homeless people need the same access to treatment as billionaires" etc. Sorry, but that only happens if coverage is unlimited.

You can cover everyone to a point, but that doesn't mean it's unlimited or everything under the sun is covered.

Effectively coverage for some things would in practice be "unlimited" but that doesn't mean if worse case scenario happened and suddenly 50 million people needed hundreds of thousands of dollars of treatment that it could be done.

A lot of this is semantics.

 

[Crispy75]

Why should anyone have the motivation to live healthily if they will just get bailed out by their neighbor when they need a triple bypass?.

They already do. That's literally what insurance does. The price of your insurance is not based on your own health, but the average health of everyone who buys insurance from that company.

All Universal Healthcare does is pool *all* the risk and removes the profit-seeking insurance business.

 

[Bleepey]

Another note: People in this thread are speaking as though physicians should have no free will to run businesses as they choose and that the state should force them to provide their services for whatever fee they deem appropriate. Physicians go through extreme sacrifices and must be extremely dedicated and motivated people to make it through that process and to continue that process as a career for decades. It is extremely grueling both physically and mentally. When you reduce such training & preparation down to a basic service and regulate everything that they can do and what they can make, then that strips all of the motivation from those individuals to actually go through such a thorough process and become so well prepared.

We could churn out millions of physicians per year if we were willing to significantly lower the standards, and you'd be happy to be operated upon with something with as much training as a typical trade school graduate. How would quality of care be maintained? Do you think malpractice payouts would increase at all? How would those be handled? Would you even be treated properly compared to today's top standards if training standards were relaxed so significantly as that which would be required to offer universal healthcare to all who need it when they need it?

lol. The US requires doctors to have an undergraduate degree not out of standards but probably to reduce supply and increase barrier to entry. UK medical training is 4 years for post grads or 5-6 for those who study from 18 and whether they do an intercalated BSc. Curious, what do you know about medical education in places like the UK? I knew a few Canadian and American medical students at uni and some went back to N.America.

But anyway to rebut your silliness, every country in the world has much lower healthcare spending per person. Countries like the UK are much more efficient and spend less on healthcare admin spending as a percentage.

Also there is nothing stopping doctors in places like the UK from going into private practice. This is despite the fact their medical education is heavily subsidised by the NHS. They might not earn as much but medical debt is far far less. When I was at uni tuition was £1k a year. Now it's probably about £10K. Good luck finding an American school for that much.

Oh and LOL at comparing malpractice payments to the rest of the world.

Places with universal healthcare look at evidence and not necessarily ideology regarding what makes best policy

 

[Future]

Basic health care for everyone.

Cosmetic health care for the elite

That way the elite can still feel like they get something if that’s what this all is about

 

[Hierophant]

In one of my earliest posts in here, I state that I am all for free preventative care for all --- that is a FANTASTIC thing that I think, while not a "right", is a service that the government should make sure is available in a timely manner to all of its citizens.

The "right not to die", however, is the impossible pipe dream --- there are only so many specialists (with maintained standards), only so many cancer meds & facilities, only so many livers, hearts etc. to go around.

And how does offering free treatment to all sick citizens encourage healthy living? People in here have already said things like "no, the drunk shouldn't be penalized --- you can't nitpick whether smoking or heavy constant drinking is costing everyone more when they go for cancer treatments, liver transplants etc.".

Why should anyone have the motivation to live healthily if they will just get bailed out by their neighbor when they need a triple bypass? Sure, some rational-thinking people will stay healthy to avoid hospital stays and live-threatening circumstances, but for those countless people out there that don't think that far ahead, there will be no motivation to actually take care of themselves. If anything happens to them, the state-run medical system has got their back, free of charge.

jesus christ read what you're saying back to yourself and realise you are entirely without empathy

guess what, everyone makes mistakes but to punish them for the rest of their life for doing so is disgusting. is this the road to means testing healthcare? your argument here is so bad considering the US already has a vast swathe of people who are obese and sick, what motivation to live healthily do they get from the current system? if a person is "irrational", they should just die? or be in crippling debt for the rest of their life?