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Is "The Winds of Winter" ever coming out?
- Thread starter SpaceWolf
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I read A Game of Thrones in 1998 and loved it. Read the rest as they were released but with the drop in quality and the length of time it has taken, I just stopped caring. I'll just watch the show from now on.
If they are released I'll look on wikis and whatever to see the differences but I don't care to read them any more.
If they are released I'll look on wikis and whatever to see the differences but I don't care to read them any more.
No, he started writing ASOIAF in 91, 93 he returned to it after Doorways. It's not something you have to guess wrongly, it's out there.
After you add the written content cut from ADWD he's a couple of hundred pages less over 11 years than what was 8 to 9. Over a time period where he did more other writing and had more invites.
The pace at which he writes is slow compared to others, it always has been, even when he's doing nothing else and has everything lined up, just churning through pages. That's the cost of his quality, it doesn't happen any other way.
If someone can't discern the difference between what GRRM writes and someone like Sanderson, then more power to them, there's no reason they should care about GRRM as plenty of authors would satisfy them.
Yeah, the difference is that Sanderson outlines his books so that story threads are in the right place several volumes later where he needs them. GRRM doesn't do that, so we spend entire novels stuck in Meereen.
Honestly, I don't think that GRRM's approach is that bad in general; but it's an utter disaster when trying to put together a complex multi-novel series.
ive started rereading the first book at a glacial pace in prep for the next book... about a chaptee a week
bodyofanamerican
Member
I thought this quote was pretty indicative of some of the self doubt and maybe depression (don't mean to throw that word around lightly) that GRRM has struggled with in the past and probably even more so now that the show is a smashing success and about to not need him anymore.
I'm with your friend. I will wait even if I die before winter ever comes.
The whole thing is a mummer's farce.
he's old and very overweight
it's not a joke to say that he will probably die before he can finish the series
The outline presented in 1993 is completely different to what was published. Getting the initial idea and fleshing it out is some of the hardest work so I'm not surprised it took him a few years of playing with ideas before writing anything in earnest.
If you actually read the Rolling Stone article where George talks about this he says he wrote 100ish pages in 1991 then sent it out to agents in 1994. So he didn't begin really writing the series until after he got an advance. It tallies with the October 1993 letter that gives his proposed outline for the series.
You want to count 3 years where he had other jobs and was actively pitching and writing scripts in Hollywood to the time of the first three books but want to give George credit for making personal appearances and whatever else when you give him a pass for taking over a decade to write two books.
And even if you add in the time it took to form the idea the first book was published in August 1996. He managed to write two books in the next 4 years.
Dance leftovers are a whole different topic. We would have waited more years for Dance if the publishers hadn't forced it out to coincide with the show.
So he got 3 books out in 9 years, but only 2 out in 16 years after, but nothing has changed? This is incredible
metalslimer
Member
Season 6 was good enough that I don't even care anymore.
That's really stretching it because you're counting 5 years after his last book was published. Count from publication dates and when he first started writing.
So 7 for the first 3 books and 10 years for the next two books.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
Honestly, at this point, I consider the show canon.
Whatever books happen to get released in the future, are just going to be bonus reimaginings of how the story could have gone.
The show is going to give me closure long before the books. I'm really just done waiting, and like others have said, I don't care.
Whatever books happen to get released in the future, are just going to be bonus reimaginings of how the story could have gone.
The show is going to give me closure long before the books. I'm really just done waiting, and like others have said, I don't care.
The first book started with 9 POVs
The second book had 10 POVs
The third books had 12 POVs
The fourth book only had 13 POVs
The fifth book admittedly had 18 POVs but 5 of those only had 1 chapter each.
The sixth book, according to GRRM, only has 13 POVs to start with and there'll be less at the end so we're reducing significantly next book.
Damn.....people are really bitter.
First 3 books were so dope. I enjoyed 4th book (such as Jaimie's chapters), but I felt it had too many viewpoints I didn't care about (Vicaryon or whatever that viking dude was).
Half of the fifth book was as good as any part of ASOIAF, but the other half was so plodding and worthless.
Half of the fifth book was as good as any part of ASOIAF, but the other half was so plodding and worthless.
If you were there starting book one, I can fucking see it.
I do think The Winds of Winter is coming out- what I am more worried about is the seventh book and even worse, a potential 8th book. I do have to mention that my hype for the series has dwindled a lot since before. I started the series in 2010 and I tell ya I fell absolutely in love, not a day went by when I did not think about ASOIAF from 2010 to 2013/2014. Now though? Honestly this wait has burned me out and I have stopped caring a fair amount, only really coming out for the TV show whereas before I was always on message boards and Reddit, devouring all the new theories and rumors. It was a fun community effort if nothing else.
At this point I would read the rest of the story on a wet tissue paper in jot-not form though, so the TV show ill suffice cause I just want the damn thing to end, even if the TV show is largely crap. George's characters have left strong enough impressions on me to form my own conclusions and fill in the blanks.
That all being said, I cannot help but feel just a tad disappointing about the way it turned out. GRRM was clearly overwhelmed my the popularity and success of his series that may been too much for him to handle and while he is free to live his life the way he sees fit, the idealist in me thinks he owes his fans, the ones who helped propel him to that position in the first place because I have never met fans of a book series as passionate and batshit-levels of obsessed as the ASOIAF one. Ah well, it was good while it lasted and I definitely enjoyed my time in the community if nothing else.
At this point I would read the rest of the story on a wet tissue paper in jot-not form though, so the TV show ill suffice cause I just want the damn thing to end, even if the TV show is largely crap. George's characters have left strong enough impressions on me to form my own conclusions and fill in the blanks.
That all being said, I cannot help but feel just a tad disappointing about the way it turned out. GRRM was clearly overwhelmed my the popularity and success of his series that may been too much for him to handle and while he is free to live his life the way he sees fit, the idealist in me thinks he owes his fans, the ones who helped propel him to that position in the first place because I have never met fans of a book series as passionate and batshit-levels of obsessed as the ASOIAF one. Ah well, it was good while it lasted and I definitely enjoyed my time in the community if nothing else.
Sanderson is garbage though.
Read some classics, guys. I suggest The Once and Future King, Conan the Barbarian and HP Lovecraft. All three are big influences on GRRM too and helps you understand where his ideas come from.
I'm done with the show until the books are done. I don't care if I have to wait 20 fucking years. And if he never finishes the books, then I'll never finish watching the show.
The show is shit compared to the books anyway. It's not even close. Especially after the first couple of seasons.
The show is shit compared to the books anyway. It's not even close. Especially after the first couple of seasons.
Dash_Riprock
Member
And neither GRRM nor Sanderson hold a candle to any of them, so whats your point?
You wouldn't be spoiled very much watching the show anyways seeing as the show producers have already said that the show won't spoil the books anymore besides a few key moments.
Well they definitely hold a candle to Lovecraft at least if they are not outright better. Lovevraft created one of my favorite mythos' of all time, but his purple prose and horrible dialogue do little to persuade me of his mastery of the written form.
Dash_Riprock
Member
His prose is crap, yes, but his world building is far better than GRRM (who also has questionable prose, but thats another issue), who just literally took English medieval history and changed the names.
Your response doesn't make sense. I suggested they read some actual good books while they wait instead of Sanderson's books which I think are garbage.
Can only speak for myself, but I just feel burnt out at this point, waiting for so long.
I started reading back in 2003, so maybe I was a bit spoiled due to having the first three books already out and AFFC coming out a few years later, but the wait since then...
I know the writing process can be difficult, but GRRM doesn't do himself many favors (such as only being able to write on some ancient machine of his) which slows things down all the more.
The show has passed the books now and I just gave up. I'm avoiding show spoilers (and quite well, surprisingly. Hasn't been hard) until the books come out (I just don't care for the show) but the fire I used to have for the series, for the world its set in, has diminished considerably since I gave up. It makes me sad, as I used to really love it, but I've moved on.
I will, of course, devour the book when it comes out, but I'm no longer feeling that spike of excitement whenever I hear of news about the book. Now its a shrug and "meh, whatever." I'm much more into Sanderson's Cosmere now. Makes me a bit sad to be so meh about ASOIAF but that's what happens when the author loses himself in the work and putters about for so long.
Bounceounce
Member
That's probably why I'm not as frustrated as much, as I don't really enjoy the Dornish plot much (but I'm really interested in whatever is going on with Darkstar, can't wait to see how his character/the upcoming fight pans out), but Victarion immediately jumped in my top five after his first chapter and the Ironborn plot became my favorite family conflict in the series and my hype for them in Winds has only increased.
Eh, that's not really true. GRRM takes a lot of inspiration from other sources besides English medieval history in his world-building like the Roman Empire and Roman Republic.
But you're also not accounting for the magical areas of his world which are very Lovecraftian. You'd have a point if you said GRRM was ripping off Lovecraft with the Deep Ones, the island of Leng, terrifying evil gods, the Others and Euron Greyjoy.
But the writing isn't really comparable besides on a technical level since Lovecraft doesn't write layered characters or plots just interesting mysteries.
GRRM's prose can be great but it's usually middling. His dialogue and plot-weaving is his real strength.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
The delay suggests major structural problems IMO. I at least understood why Feast and Dance took so long, specifically due to the five year gap experiment and the Meereenese Knot; he finished both books after figuring out solutions to those problems. Based on those issues being resolved I figured Winds would come out faster than Dance at least. Nope.
There are too many balls/characters in the air. Martin has said many POV characters will die in Winds which is a good thing, but I think pacing is going to be a big problem. For instance he has released two Arianne chapters so far. They're interesting and sow the seeds for interesting later developments, specifically
but the pacing is terrible. Like there's not much reason for her to have two super long chapters, during which she is traveling to meet someone who she ultimately doesn't even reach. Which means she'll meet that person in her third chapter. Given that all the POVs are back together now I don't think Martin has room for travelogues anymore. She should have reached her destination by the end of the first chapter and met that particular person in her second chapter.
Imagine that type of slow pacing throughout the book. Then add in the three major battles we know will happen (North/Winterfell, Meereen, Storm's End). I don't see how he gets all his pieces where they need to be by the end of Winds. Which means he probably is going to need an eight book...
There are too many balls/characters in the air. Martin has said many POV characters will die in Winds which is a good thing, but I think pacing is going to be a big problem. For instance he has released two Arianne chapters so far. They're interesting and sow the seeds for interesting later developments, specifically
Aegon and Dorne vs Dany
Imagine that type of slow pacing throughout the book. Then add in the three major battles we know will happen (North/Winterfell, Meereen, Storm's End). I don't see how he gets all his pieces where they need to be by the end of Winds. Which means he probably is going to need an eight book...
Basileus777
Member
There was never really much reason to believe that he was past the structural problems after spending a decade struggling with them. Hell, even the resolution to the infamous Meereenese Knot was pushed into future books.
Bounceounce
Member
I always saw GRRMS characters/character arcs as his real strength.
He tends to follow a similar formula for most of them, where he'll break the characters down/put them in a morally compromising situation and see what arises from the ashes, but he does it in such a fresh way each time that I feel it works.
Each and every PoV has it's own distinct voice, and they all feel like living and breathing people, which makes their movements all the more better,and probably why Grrm takes so long to get from point A to point B with them.
Such Victarions gradual shift from the Iron Captain, exemplifying no ambitions of his own who's only purpose was to reave and obey Balon.
To a multi-God worshipping, magic practicing, slave sacrificing, plotter (a bad one but still a plotter) with ambitions of his own for power.
All of this in Eurons own image despite Vics hatred of his own brother (hence why his last Dance chapter was named Victarion rather than a title), and despite his previous wariness of his practices.
A real twisted moral fall of sorts, and this isn't even touching his insecurities/wife/issues with masculinity.
Or if you've read The Forsaken, seeing Aerons faith being torn down in front of him by the man he essentially sees as Lucifer in the flesh, the man who's his abuser, and him being subjected to hallucinations throughout it all while feeling as if he was the same "weak" child Euron would visit in the dark of night.
All of Aerons religious bluster and manipulations and rationalizations didn't keep him from going back to the belly of the beast, and didn't help him while in there,but him being in the belly of the beast slowly softened him to the plight of the other holy men Euron captured, and by the end of the chapter (in his last line) Aeron actually used his faith to comfort someone for once (Falia Flowers), and it was morbidly beautiful, and exactly the kind of scenarios I love George creating.
Arianne's two chapters are just there to develop Arianne, the coming Martell tragedy, the Stormlands, the Golden Company and set up Aegon and Arianne v Dany. Before Arianne had only had 2 chapters back in AFFC so I'm guessing that GRRM wants us to understand why Arianne is going to do what she does next and how she's different from her AFFC self. But I agree that this could've all been done in one chapter.
There's a lot of issues with GRRM:
Namely that he took a one year break after he finished ADWD to bask in the relief which he has admitted was a big mistake to stop while his writing iron was hot.
Second is that he when the show went live his star rose so hard that he couldn't say no all these interviews and trips he was being offered.
The other one right now is that he doesn't know what characters should get to what place in what order and how that'll affect the plot which was why he had to write three different ways the story would play out with Quentyn arriving in Meereen 100 days before the wedding, a day before the wedding and after the wedding to see which played out best.
So before it was Meereen with GRRM trying to figure out who should get to Daenerys in what order between Quentyn, Victarion, Tyrion and Marwyn. (And it's still not finished but I think he knows what he wants to do there now)
And now it's probably Winterfell where we have Asha, Theon, Davos, Jon, Sansa, Melisandre and possibly Bran and Brienne showing up in some order in the same place.
That's probably why I have a lot of faith that once he gets his characters in one spot that it'll flow faster like in AGOT because a chapter where characters are clustered will advance the story for all the characters in that area versus before where a chapter from say Arya will only advance her story.
So I can see him finishing in 7 books or 8 with the eight one actually being a lot shorter than his normal books.
CharminUltra
Member
Short answer: no
Long answer:
Long answer:
no................................................pe
Basileus777
Member
People have been saying this for 15 years. It's never going to happen. The way he writes is the way he writes now, expecting dramatic changes is unrealistic.
I'm not even sure that it matters at this point, in the fact that his own series has escaped him. With the HBO series going like wildfire and surpassing him, I assume the work has suffered.
I can't imagine how much it would screw with me if I was an author, trying to write a book as someone is making a TV show about parts I haven't even released yet.
Second guessing yourself, being mad about how its handled, they should have done this, wait should I do this? Is this part good enough, seeing how people hate this part in the TV show and what happened with the character. The way this actor is portraying the character has changed how I think of them, I really like this actor and how they've done it. On and on and on.
Unless the dude lives in a vacuum I can't imagine any of it is good.
Even then, so this book comes out and then what? How many more years to finish?
I can't imagine how much it would screw with me if I was an author, trying to write a book as someone is making a TV show about parts I haven't even released yet.
Second guessing yourself, being mad about how its handled, they should have done this, wait should I do this? Is this part good enough, seeing how people hate this part in the TV show and what happened with the character. The way this actor is portraying the character has changed how I think of them, I really like this actor and how they've done it. On and on and on.
Unless the dude lives in a vacuum I can't imagine any of it is good.
Even then, so this book comes out and then what? How many more years to finish?
Okay I agree with you here.
Also I'm a Greyjoy lover so that explains why I have a higher opinion of the books than others who hate the Greyjoys and Dornish.
But his characters haven't really grouped together since AGOT?
Soooo.....that doesn't really mean anything.
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