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Israel faces mounting Palestinian anger over holy site metal detectors
- Thread starter Kolx
- Start date
This has less to do with religion and more to do with the fact the Israel is an occupying force that has been practicing ethnic cleansing for 70 years.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Strange, then, that the Muslim clerics involved in this exactly cite religion as the issue with the metal detectors and not ethnic cleansing. You'd think they wouldn't want the bad PR from the former and would jump to embrace the latter as an explanation.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
This is about Palestinian nationalists who use this as an excuse to fan the flames of discontent. The two dead Israeli soldiers are of no importance since now there's a dead protester. There'll be more protests, more violence, more repercussions, more protests, more violence etc etc. Nothing will change, but more people will have died because of these Palestinian nutcases who keep pouring oil on the flames.
jakonovski
Member
Why can't the Palestinians just submit and accept they will never have freedom?
Looking past religious differences will have no affect on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, this move is about control.
Israel has no right to defend itself as a colonial state
ClosingADoor
Member
This is escalating. Abbas just announced he stopped all communications with Israel until these security measures are removed.
Three people died in the violence of the protest. 300 wounded. And 3 Israeli's died by an attack from a Palestinian on the West Bank.
Three people died in the violence of the protest. 300 wounded. And 3 Israeli's died by an attack from a Palestinian on the West Bank.
unpopularblargh
Member
Vox has a pretty good breakdown of the whole situation for those interested. It's about more than just metal detectors.
Link: https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/21...test-day-of-rage-metal-detectors-holy-al-aqsa
Link: https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/21...test-day-of-rage-metal-detectors-holy-al-aqsa
jakonovski
Member
I'm afraid now that Trump's in power, there will be little restraint to Israeli atrocities in case of outright conflict.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Religion is an instrument of control and has a huge influence on the contours of the conflict and the behaviour of the actors involved. It's not the complete explanation, sure, but to say it's not a religious conflict seems very inaccurate to me.
Clearly it's the Palestinian nutcases fanning the flames and not the state of Israel who keeps bulldozing their homes, stealing their land and even their solar panels.
Jag
Member
Actually they weren't soldiers, they were Druze policemen.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
They already do. It's Israeli law to not allow non-Muslim prayer at Temple Mount even though it is an extremely holy place for Jews as well.
Mortimer Brewster
Member
Agreed, and we already know how this end. The palestinians will continue to fan tensions in the West Bank. Israel will adopt measures to improve security. The PLO will ratchet up tensions. Then Hamas in Gaza seeing an opportunity for more mayhem for international consumption will start lobbing rockets into Israeli towns. Then the IDF will go in and pummel Hamas military positions in Gaza which they keep near civilians for maximum carnage. The news will cover these casualties ignoring Hamas wants this to happen. The UN and other anti semetic organizations will start attacking Israel in the media. Israel will pull out. Then the PLO in the West Bank will find something else to stoke the flames with. Rinse and Repeat.
I guess if I didn't understand the meaning of any of those words or knew literally nothing about history I would think these things...I mean, you're referring to the Israelis as doing ethnic cleansing when they have never stated they want that whereas Palestinian leaders outright have. They elected a group that routinely blows themselves up to kill innocent Israelis.
But I suppose you don't view any Israeli as innocent. I wonder how you would've felt if the roadside bomb that once was disarmed on the street while I was a fucking baby in a stroller went off. Guess I would've deserved that. Or if my friends had decided to go to that night club the night it was blown up Rather than the week before.
Suicide bombings became so common and there was so much apathy from the outside world, it's no fucking wonder the hard right took over. They tried to make peace multiple times but no matter what, as witnessed even in this thread, all the blame went on Israel. So as much as I fucking hate Netanyahu(and I do), I can at least understand how his party came to power.
This isn't some one-sided issue and you should probably read up on why we are where we are. Cause there is plenty of blame to go around.
Edit:
It blows my mind this still needs to be explained. But I shouldn't be surprised.
I love how you purposefully keep the reason for tensions being raised in the West Bank vague...
Ah the old Anti Israel equals Anti Semitic rhetoric?
Can we not have a balanced discussion about this?
So close to telling us how you really feel.
Man, shit is going down in a bad way, I wonder if this can lead to a new Intifada...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That's crazy. I should be supporting Israel then because my Nation literally spawned Hitler.
there is a racist apartheid state oppressing a population within its borders and neogaf will read two headlines about it and go 'way to go, religion, you fucked it up again'
i mean really Palestinians it's just metal detectors it's not like anyone has ever done anything else to you ever in history that might shed some light on your anger and resentment that is now spilling over
i for one don't understand what the big deal is with dictating who can enter their holy sites. be reasonable, Palestinians, look at this like a logical internet person would
i mean really Palestinians it's just metal detectors it's not like anyone has ever done anything else to you ever in history that might shed some light on your anger and resentment that is now spilling over
i for one don't understand what the big deal is with dictating who can enter their holy sites. be reasonable, Palestinians, look at this like a logical internet person would
The mind of the oppressor believing they're the oppressed. How sad.
DiscoJer
Member
When will the Kurds? Their homeland is split between 3 countries (Turkey, Iraq, and Syria) and have been horribly persecuted by all three. Thanks to the second Gulf War, they have some autonomy in Iraq, but Turkey regularly bombs them
What about the Yezidis? The world just watched ISIS murder and enslave them and basically did nothing., just half assed dropped some supplies
It amazes me that slavery exists in the world today and the world just shrugs. It's only Yezidi women getting raped multiple time daily. Not our problem.
The Palestinians have not been dealt a great hand, but they haven't done very well with the cards they were dealt. They shouldn't have attacked Israel to begin with and they maybe should have accepted the settlement that Clinton negotiated for them. Was it great? No, but it was a hell of a lot better than a lot of people have.
Father_Brain
Banned
sure, Israel has vastly more power to kill and/or immiserate Palestinians than the reverse, and has not been shy about using that power to do so, and there is no remotely plausible scenario in which that power imbalance becomes equalized (let alone reversed) anytime in the foreseeable future, BUT
chekhonte
Member
Who's talking about supporting Israel? I'm talking about white liberal guilt. I'm saying that they're taking specific issue with this because of that. There are far worse atrocities that are completely ignored but this one seems to resonate. I'm just positing my idea as to why.
Most of the BDS support from America comes from PoC organizations. Including BLM. Probably because they have a better perspective on oppression.
I'm pretty sure there is no other democracy or developed country that holds millions of people without basic human rights based on their ethnicity the way Israel does.
I think that's the reason why it resonante to the degree that it does (though honestly, I don't think it resonates that much in the US, especially in white America).
DongBeetle
Banned
A lot of white republicans secretly (sometimes not so secretly) want an ethnic state
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's the inverse logic of supporting Israel because the generation 3 generations before yours committed the holocaust.
rackham
Banned
The Gaza War happened because Hamas kept firing rockets from there. If they cared about their people so much, why are they living in the dead center of them, while firing at the enemy. They're cowards who use their "allies" as attempted shields- and it did not work.
gee what could have led a very poor and badly educated populace with no hope for the future to support hamas
surely nothing israel did
gaza and the west bank just kind of happened, no one can explain it, and anything that happens there is completely unrelated to israel's policies
also it's very telling that someone talks about innocent civilians being killed and you want to talk about how it's their own fault because their government uses them as human shields
This is a bs talking point that's been debunked a billion times. But it's a very convenient narrative to whitewash genocide. Their rockets were highly ineffective, and though they were fired first, that shouldn't give Israel a blank check to slaughter thousands of people.
Israel's rockets were larger and far more devastating. They knew that they were indiscriminately killing civilians, and they didn't care. The numbers back that up.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Nothing shows up people incapable of nuance like the Israel/Palestine situation.
hobblygobbly
Member
IDF (any military) is not supposed to target a building for example when they are in full knowledge of civilians present. It is not collateral damage.
IDF doesn't care, they kill innocent Palestinian kids playing football on a beach.
2014 Gaza conflict saw 1400-1600 Palestinian civilian deaths and 5 Israeli civilian deaths.
There is no excuse for Israel's indiscriminate use of force.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Much of the relationship between the western left and palestine comes from the fact that originally the PLA sold itself as a marxist organisation, similarly to the IRA and to a lesser extent the black panthers. Over time that has solidified into something more complex but international solidarity is a core reason as to why.
it work fine for me..?
AcademicSaucer
Member
Yeah, poor israelis they should just let them have their apartheid state in peace.
I'm hearing from the BBC World News podcast that Palestinians males under the age of 50 were not allowed allowed into Al Aqsa Mosque.
I find it very wierd this isn't mentioned in the OP.
Here we go:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40678746
Why the hell wasn't this mentioned?
I find it very wierd this isn't mentioned in the OP.
Here we go:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40678746
Why the hell wasn't this mentioned?
Hamas did indeed use very cheap tactics, but does that justify Israel's 'heroics' over the last several decades? Executions, physical abuse, land grabs etc Everyone knows what goes on yet it's briskly sweeped under the rug by the international community..
Just like most of the Palestinian deaths get ignored, yet when Israeli OFFICERS ie frontline staff (similar to soldiers) are killed its headline shit right there. Neither side's lives should not be weighed differently.
What Israel is doing with Al-Aqsa is begging for a reaction. It's practically deliberate in it's nature.
zer0blivion
Member
Spoiler tagged images don't work on the mobile version of the site. They are displayed the same as any other [ img].
Listing police officers in the same category as soldiers in this instance illustrates a profound lack of understanding for some of the very basics of the conflict (Geneva convention, old discussion re. armed police force and armed forces).
Couple of updates:
Some diplomatic tensions between Jordan and Israel, as there was an attack on an Israeli guard in the embassy there, and Jordan will not release the guard to Israeli hands.
Anyways, I suspect much of this fanning of the flames by Israel is because Netanyahu wants to divert intentions from the various corruption cases that were all up in the news lately, as well as relatively unfavourable polls for both his and the Jewish Home right-wing party.
I don't know what is the reason on the Palestinian/Arab states side, but that's due to ignorance. It is obviously not about metal detectors, at least in the realpolitik sense. Of course to some of the Palestinians it really is about the metal detectors being an affront to their religion or whatever, but they can fuck right off (as can the Israelis who would like to respond to this ridiculous shit with greater force).
Some diplomatic tensions between Jordan and Israel, as there was an attack on an Israeli guard in the embassy there, and Jordan will not release the guard to Israeli hands.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40700467
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-40698402
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.803113
Anyways, I suspect much of this fanning of the flames by Israel is because Netanyahu wants to divert intentions from the various corruption cases that were all up in the news lately, as well as relatively unfavourable polls for both his and the Jewish Home right-wing party.
I don't know what is the reason on the Palestinian/Arab states side, but that's due to ignorance. It is obviously not about metal detectors, at least in the realpolitik sense. Of course to some of the Palestinians it really is about the metal detectors being an affront to their religion or whatever, but they can fuck right off (as can the Israelis who would like to respond to this ridiculous shit with greater force).
This is not entirely related but I've been boiling with this for a while and I have to say, while this is far from the straw that broke the camel's back, in the last year I've lost even the sliver of hope I had of a semi-peaceful resolution to this conflict. Some of it is just becoming exposed to more and more of the general public's opinion by repeated elections with similar results as well as in social media. I see the same attitude in most of my friends, of riding this ship till it just about sinks then fucking off to greener pastures (usually the US or, ironically, Germany).
Here's a rough semi-plausible scenario of what I think is about to go down in the next ~20 years (disclaimer: I'm 24, lived in Israel all my life and served for 4.5 years in the army and I have zero confidence in this prediction)
- Right-wing parties in Israel will continue to grow in power because of the following reasons:
- The West Bank will be in almost complete Israeli control (return to full military control and uncapped settlement), and Palestinians there will not be given citizenship. They will be content to hold Gaza the same as always, making a small campaign there every few years. They don't gain anything by conquering it and they don't give a shit about sacrificing a few dozen Israelis and thousands of Palestinians once in a while.
- The country finally reaches a breaking point after the Palestinian population continues to grow and they become even more desperate, and the economy is worsened by:
The only way something akin to this scenario can be avoided is a massive change in the way the United States behaves towards Israel, and even then I'm not sure it will help much because the Israeli citizens have (for the most part) the misguided opinion that we don't need anyone else and anyone against us is antisemitic. The country might turn to Russia or China or just sink into economic ruin because it will keep the people in power there, which is what most of this is about.
Here's a rough semi-plausible scenario of what I think is about to go down in the next ~20 years (disclaimer: I'm 24, lived in Israel all my life and served for 4.5 years in the army and I have zero confidence in this prediction)
- Right-wing parties in Israel will continue to grow in power because of the following reasons:
- Far greater fertility rate amongst the religious and Haredi communities in Israel than the secular (and generally more left-wing) community.
- Further indoctrination of children and railroading into thinking that this is a conflict that needs to be solved by power and that Palestinians do not deserve this land. This is propped up by years of Likud/Jewish Home control.
- Emigration of the more secular population as the economical and security situation becomes worse.
- Eventually, either the Jewish Home overtakes Likud or the Likud begins to advocate annexing the West Bank to draw more voters. This is performed using salami tactics and not in one overt action.- The West Bank will be in almost complete Israeli control (return to full military control and uncapped settlement), and Palestinians there will not be given citizenship. They will be content to hold Gaza the same as always, making a small campaign there every few years. They don't gain anything by conquering it and they don't give a shit about sacrificing a few dozen Israelis and thousands of Palestinians once in a while.
- The country finally reaches a breaking point after the Palestinian population continues to grow and they become even more desperate, and the economy is worsened by:
- Enormous Haredi population, most of which don't work or have very little skills relevant to the traditional Israeli economy.
- Greater military expenses.
- Sanctions and worsening relations with some countries
- Further emigration of the upper classes.
- At this point, we have the death throes of the country which will likely end up in a mix of genocide and deportation (which is the overall purpose of the fuckers at the Jewish Home party) or a successful revolt of the Palestinians to make the country into something post-apartheid South Africa.The only way something akin to this scenario can be avoided is a massive change in the way the United States behaves towards Israel, and even then I'm not sure it will help much because the Israeli citizens have (for the most part) the misguided opinion that we don't need anyone else and anyone against us is antisemitic. The country might turn to Russia or China or just sink into economic ruin because it will keep the people in power there, which is what most of this is about.
You should've just let us know it's the first time you've heard of Israel or Palestine and have no idea of any previous history in the region.
I have very similar sentiments in my country as well (your neighbor).Right wing fanaticism and the cult of idolatry is a slow death sentence for the nation.
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