Support NeoGAF

[Megalosaro]

Germans didn't know how bad WW1 was because it was mostly fought outside of Germany though. They must have forgotten the terrible stories of trench wars and only focused on being pissed they have to pay reparation... either way, it's not a good idea for Japan to wash away its crimes during WW2.

No. They were pissed off they suffered such a huge defeat and were forced to accept blame for the war. They were pissed that their economy was collapsed due to the post war treaties they were forced to accept

 

[Delusibeta]

Meanwhile in Britain, the government claims the BBC has an anti-government/left wing bias.

Which is objectively false, if anything they're pro-government/right wing. Admittedly, nowhere nearly as bad as the NHK, but it is noticeable in their reporting and especially in stuff like Question Time, which seems to have settled on a format of having two politicans (75% of the time from right wing parties), a journalist and a comedian.

 

[hirokazu]

Meanwhile in Britain, the government claims the BBC has an anti-government/left wing bias.

Same thing happening in Australia. And worryingly, the right-wing government here would like ABC, our national broadcaster to follow government lines just as the NHK board wants NHK to do. The parallels between what is happening at NHK and what could happen to ABC here if the government gets their way is very concerning.

There was somebody here who remarked that you know the national broadcaster is balanced when every party in power gets shit from them, and that's exactly true. Unfortunately, the prime minister's idea of fair and balanced is Murdoch garbage news and nutjob talkback rado hosts. :/

 

[hirokazu]

Well I was responding to a guy who said theres a defense force for everything, implying I'm coming to the defense of what the Japanese did. (unless I read it wrong)

Some of your posts certainly came across as a defence force response.

 

[EmiPrime]

Meanwhile in Britain, the government claims the BBC has an anti-government/left wing bias.

The BBC could not be more pro-establishment and right wing. Look up the backgrounds of David Dimbley, Nick Robinson and Andrew Neil among others.

Sadly the tories think that by saying something false enough times it can become true in people's minds.

 

[Rebel Leader]

for us Americans:

are they worst than fox news?

 

[Chichikov]

Human experimentation is a special kind of evil but those rocket scientists were still responsible for a lot of human suffering as the V-2s were specifically used against cities. About 2750 Londoners were killed in the rocket attacks and massive swathes of the city were reduced to rubble on top of the massive damage inflicted by the Luftwaffe a few years previously. My family are all Londoners so I have heard plenty of stories.

I put them on the same level as soldiers who fought for the wehrmacht, we don't generally prosecute such people for war crimes.
The shit that unit 731 did are war crimes of the highest order. There's a reason why they US hushed and white washed that stuff while von Braun was a public figure.

 

[Delusibeta]

for us Americans:

are they worst than fox news?

Stuff in the OP is roughly equivalent to claiming the Native Americans handed over their land willingly and that black people were always treated with care and respect.

 

[hirokazu]

for us Americans:

are they worst than fox news?

NHK is a respected national broadcaster. People are expressing concern about the board and those who can ultimately control output being propped up by people with obvious right-wing leanings.

So at the moment, no, nothing like the crap from Murdoch organisations that have no public mandate to be fair and balance. What the members of the board are putting out as their "private views" though, are probably just as bad.

 

[sprsk]

Stuff in the OP is roughly equivalent to claiming the Native Americans handed over their land willingly and that black people were always treated with care and respect.

And unlike fox news, the Japanese public is made to pay for this channel by law.

 

[Surface of Me]

Germany is the best country about owning up to it's faults, I think the USA is surprisingly up there too. I was shocked when I found out in High School how much other countries twist things like WW2 and how much they do. Scary fucking shit, they can pretty much get away with it as more of the older generations die as well.

 

[EmiPrime]

I put them on the same level as soldiers who fought for the wehrmacht, we don't generally prosecute such people for war crimes.
The shit that unit 731 did are war crimes of the highest order. There's a reason why they US hushed and white washed that stuff while von Braun was a public figure.

While aerial attacks on civilian populations weren't specifically defined as war crimes back in WW2, the destruction of cities and deliberate mass killings of civilians by those means would be defined as one now. I'm pretty sure von Braun wouldn't have been a public figure had his V-2 rockets been launched at Washington as well as London.

 

[UtterlyPerplexed]

Guardian commentators accuse the BBC of being too right-wing and fans of neoliberalism. The right-wing commentators say the BBC is shamefully left-wing and if you're from the Daily Mail, "Marxist". The BBC must be doing something right if both sides are pissed off.

As for the topic, it's unsettling to say the least, for a national broadcaster to peddle this sheer propagandist material rather than strive for objectivity. Is there even much of a progressive voice left in Japan, insofar has it really ever prominent existed? The more I see these threads on Japan the more I see it as this ultraconservative society that is unlikely to ever properly budge from the whims of the Liberal Democratic Party. To think that the LDP has virtually enjoyed unbroken rule more or less except the fluke 2009-2012 DPJ government is staggering.

 

[Minion101]

So you would think the Soviets would've just let it slide after massive amount of deaths in Russia that was responsible by the Germans? No. It was an eye for an eye to them.

I'm obviously speaking from human characteristic's side of view. This was still 20th century after all.

One thing the Germans never seemed to figure out during the war was the more they would brutalize the Russians, the more the Russians would brutalize them back.

 

[hirokazu]

While aerial attacks on civilian populations weren't specifically defined as war crimes back in WW2, the destruction of cities and deliberate mass killings of civilians by those means would be defined as one now. I'm pretty sure von Braun wouldn't have been a public figure had his V-2 rockets been launched at Washington as well as London.

I think the thing with developing rockets are that they are developed under scientific endeavor and the rockets themselves are neutral in their capabilities of contributing harm or good towards humanity, even if the scientists know what they will be used for.

There are no excuses to performing medical experiments on live human beings that result in direct suffering, incapacitation or death.

 

[EmiPrime]

Guardian commentators accuse the BBC of being too right-wing and fans of neoliberalism. The right-wing commentators say the BBC is shamefully left-wing and if you're from the Daily Mail, "Marxist". The BBC must be doing something right if both sides are pissed off.

Please name an unambiguously socialist BBC political presenter of the same seniority as John Humphrys, David Dimbleby, Nick Robinson and Andrew Neil.

How about the disproportionately large coverage given to Farage and UKIP?

Where are the republican voices on the BBC? Why is the BBC part of the monarchy PR machine?

The BBC is very much a part of the right wing establishment.

 

[hirokazu]

As for the topic, it's unsettling to say the least, for a national broadcaster to peddle this sheer propagandist material rather than strive for objectivity. Is there even much of a progressive voice left in Japan, insofar has it really ever prominent existed? The more I see these threads on Japan the more I see it as this ultraconservative society that is unlikely to ever properly budge from the whims of the Liberal Democratic Party. To think that the LDP has virtually enjoyed unbroken rule more or less except the fluke 2009-2012 DPJ government is staggering.

I think a lot of you are not understanding that the current controversy surrounds what those who control the NHK are saying in their private capacity and the accusations of editorial control and gag orders to stay in line with official government positions.

The NHK itself are not currently expressing these views concerning Japanese atrocities.

Please name an unambiguously socialist BBC political presenter of the same seniority as John Humphrys, David Dimbleby, Nick Robinson and Andrew Neil.

How about the disproportionately large coverage given to Farage and UKIP?

Where are the republican voices on the BBC? Why is the BBC part of the monarchy PR machine?

The BBC is very much a part of the right wing establishment.

I think the point is that when both sides of the political spectrum are saying the BBC leans towards the opposite side, then the truth is probably somewhere in the middle and they are probably more fair and balanced than those people want to believe.

 

[Chichikov]

While aerial attacks on civilian populations weren't specifically defined as war crimes back in WW2, the destruction of cities and deliberate mass killings of civilians by those means would be defined as one now. I'm pretty sure von Braun wouldn't have been a public figure had his V-2 rockets been launched at Washington as well as London.

I hate world war 2 false equivalences and I firmly believe that the axes were, for a lack of a more sophisticated term, the bad guys, but when it come to strategic air bombing the British were just as bad as the Nazis, and in some respects they were worse (and bomber Harris is a straight up war criminal if you ask me).
But that's not the point, von Braun didn't order the bombing of London, the person who did was tried and executed, he was just a cog in an evil machine, I find him as complacent as your average German soldier.
And personally, I think it's the right mover to hang the leaders and for the most part let the people who followed them be.

Edit: I should clarify that it's more of a practical stance than a morale one, I think working for the Nazis is reprehensible and he should've known better.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

The BBC could not be more pro-establishment and right wing. Look up the backgrounds of David Dimbley, Nick Robinson and Andrew Neil among others.

Sadly the tories think that by saying something false enough times it can become true in people's minds.

That's why I find the Tory bleating about the BBC being a hotbed of Communist activity to be utterly laughable.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

As for the topic, it's unsettling to say the least, for a national broadcaster to peddle this sheer propagandist material rather than strive for objectivity.

It's not (yet). The OP is claiming that something has happened on NHK already when, for the moment, it's just been a couple of statements from a few of the board members. The title needs a big fat "looking to use" in place of "is using" with an equally large question mark at the end.

 

[kess]

I wonder how Japanese nationalism reconciles the assassination of Prime Minister Inukai Tsuyoshi and the usurpation of the democracy by the military in the 30s. The Taisei Yokusankai was nothing to be proud of.

 

[EmiPrime]

I think the point is that when both sides of the political spectrum are saying the BBC leans towards the opposite side, then the truth is probably somewhere in the middle and they are probably more fair and balanced than those people want to believe.

No that doesn't work in this case.

I hate world war 2 false equivalences and I firmly believe that the axes were, for a lack of a more sophisticated term, the bad guys, but when it come to strategic air bombing the British were just as bad as the Nazis, and in some respects they were worse (and bomber Harris is a straight up war criminal if you ask me).
But that's not the point, von Braun didn't order the bombing of London, the person who did was tried and executed, he was just a cog in an evil machine, I find him as complacent as your average German soldier.
And personally, I think it's the right mover to hang the leaders and for the most part let the people who followed them be.

Edit: I should clarify that it's more of a practical stance than a morale one, I think working for the Nazis is reprehensible and he should've known better.

From a moral perspective I think we're very much on the same page. However while not on the same level of complicity as those turning the cogs I think he was more than just a part of the machine. The V-2 was finished in the latter part of the war so von Braun knew exactly what he was a part of. If he wasn't such a genius and of use to the Americans he may have been put on trial too.

That's why I find the Tory bleating about the BBC being a hotbed of Communist activity to be utterly laughable.

It's infuriating!

 

[Kapsama]

A UK newspaper having articles on Japan not coping with it's dark past is laughable. No one killed more innocent people in the 19th & 20th centuries than Europe and the US. Hell the UK was busy TORTURING the current US president's grandfather just a few years ago. What have the European Imperial powers done to make up for their past?

Deal with your own shit first. And perhaps Japan will take a lesson then.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I hate world war 2 false equivalences and I firmly believe that the axes were, for a lack of a more sophisticated term, the bad guys, but when it come to strategic air bombing the British were just as bad as the Nazis, and in some respects they were worse (and bomber Harris is a straight up war criminal if you ask me).
But that's not the point, von Braun didn't order the bombing of London, the person who did was tried and executed, he was just a cog in an evil machine, I find him as complacent as your average German soldier.
And personally, I think it's the right mover to hang the leaders and for the most part let the people who followed them be.

Edit: I should clarify that it's more of a practical stance than a morale one, I think working for the Nazis is reprehensible and he should've known better.

As cynical as it may sound, working for the Nazis was probably the best thing he could have done for the allied war effort, since his rocket programs drained resources and manpower from the Reich that could have been put to much better use elsewhere. They built ~5000 of them, with each rocket constructed killing an average of ~1.7 people. They cost ~100,000 reichsmarks to construct, which is about the same price as a late war Panzer IV tank. Not counting resources and manpower to perform the r&d, testing etc.

 

[Defect]

Satō was right, it's all a damn conspiracy

Best post.

I just watched and finished this last week.

 

[Minion101]

As cynical as it may sound, working for the Nazis was probably the best thing he could have done for the allied war effort, since his rocket programs drained resources and manpower from the Reich that could have been put to much better use elsewhere. They built ~5000 of them, with each rocket constructed killing an average of ~1.7 people. They cost ~100,000 reichsmarks to construct, which is about the same price as a late war Panzer IV tank. Not counting resources and manpower to perform the r&d, testing etc.

They had no problem drowning themselves in planes when they had noone to fly them. Not sure if money was an issue for them.

 

[ISOM]

A UK newspaper having articles on Japan not coping with it's dark past is laughable. No one killed more innocent people in the 19th & 20th centuries than Europe and the US. Hell the UK was busy TORTURING the current US president's grandfather just a few years ago. What have the European Imperial powers done to make up for their past?

Deal with your own shit first. And perhaps Japan will take a lesson then.

No one even really talks about what the belgium did in the congo. Up there with the greatest atrocities in history but hardly anyone talks about it compared to japan or other countries.

 

[Tallshortman]

I'm just pointing out that the allies also did some terrible things as well. It is bullshit to compare the scale of crimes of what the axis did to what the allies but it isn't bullshit to say that the allies weren't clean.

I'm in no way defending what the Japanese did during the war. I love Japan, but I will never come to their defense of what they did to millions of people (Unit 731, Rape of Nanking, etc)

Saying "to be fair the allies did some shit" in a thread where

1. no one is saying the allies were squeaky clean

2. about japan trying to rewrite history

is called bullshiting because it's a shitty attempt to create a false equivalency. There is nothing for you to point out because no one in here said the allies did nothing wrong during the war.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

They had no problem drowning themselves in planes when they had noone to fly them. Not sure if money was an issue for them.

It's just an abstraction of course. But they had people building and maintaining these things, who presumably could have been doing something that wasn't essentially useless for any purpose other than propaganda. And other things that could have used the metal and fuel that these things consisted of.

 

[Chichikov]

From a moral perspective I think we're very much on the same page. However while not on the same level of complicity as those turning the cogs I think he was more than just a part of the machine. The V-2 was finished in the latter part of the war so von Braun knew exactly what he was a part of. If he wasn't such a genius and of use to the Americans he may have been put on trial too.

If he would be put on trail, it would've been for using slave labor, like Willy Messerschmitt, and upon further reflection you are probably correct and he would've spent a few years in jail if it wasn't for the US space program.

A UK newspaper having articles on Japan not coping with it's dark past is laughable. No one killed more innocent people in the 19th & 20th centuries than Europe and the US. Hell the UK was busy TORTURING the current US president's grandfather just a few years ago. What have the European Imperial powers done to make up for their past?

Deal with your own shit first. And perhaps Japan will take a lesson then.

Hooray whataboutism!
I promise you to give equal shit to any colonial apologist in the UK, okay?
It's much healthier to condemn all atrocities than to condemn non.

As cynical as it may sound, working for the Nazis was probably the best thing he could have done for the allied war effort, since his rocket programs drained resources and manpower from the Reich that could have been put to much better use elsewhere. They built ~5000 of them, with each rocket constructed killing an average of ~1.7 people. They cost ~100,000 reichsmarks to construct, which is about the same price as a late war Panzer IV tank. Not counting resources and manpower to perform the r&d, testing etc.

Yeah, I read an article (or maybe it was in a book, can't remember) about it and was pretty shocked at how expensive that program was.

 

[Piecake]

If he would be put on trail, it would've been for using slave labor, like Willy Messerschmitt, and upon further reflection you are probably correct and he would've spent a few years in jail if it wasn't for the US space program.


Hooray whataboutism!
I promise you to give equal shit to any colonial apologist in the UK, okay?
It's much healthier to condment all atrocities than to condemn known.


Yeah, I read an article (or maybe it was in a book, can't remember) about it and was pretty shocked at how expensive that program was.

I just want to say that that is an excellent word

 

[EmiPrime]

No one even really talks about what the belgium did in the congo. Up there with the greatest atrocities in history but hardly anyone talks about it compared to japan or other countries.

Whenever I hear the word "caoutchouc" I am reminded of this.

Bone-chilling.

 

[hirokazu]

A UK newspaper having articles on Japan not coping with it's dark past is laughable. No one killed more innocent people in the 19th & 20th centuries than Europe and the US. Hell the UK was busy TORTURING the current US president's grandfather just a few years ago. What have the European Imperial powers done to make up for their past?

Deal with your own shit first. And perhaps Japan will take a lesson then.

No one even really talks about what the belgium did in the congo. Up there with the greatest atrocities in history but hardly anyone talks about it compared to japan or other countries.

If you're concerned about those things, why not start a new thread to raise awareness and encourage discussion about them? I don't understand people coming in to a thread about a present issue and saying "What about these guys or those guys?" By that logic, nobody is ever allowed to raise objections about anything because they should engage in some self-criticism first.

There are some atrocities that I have never heard of until I read about them in the news in the last couple years, some via GAF. It would be more enlightening to make a thread explaining what happened rather than to come into another thread and say "Yo, nobody ever talks about this!"

 

[hirokazu]

No that doesn't work in this case.

May I ask why not? While they may not be perfect, the BBC seems like a pretty impartial source of news to me, an outside observer.

 

[Dram]

Whenever I hear the word "caoutchouc" I am reminded of this.

Bone-chilling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo

Congolese children and wives whose fathers/husbands failed to meet rubber-collection quotas often had their hands cut off.

Wow. How does that make any sense?

 

[Deleted member 13876]

No one even really talks about what the belgium did in the congo. Up there with the greatest atrocities in history but hardly anyone talks about it compared to japan or other countries.

As a Belgian, I think that's a fair point. It was definitely covered to some extent in history classes, but the real scale of the atrocities was glossed over. In fact, reading up on it more, I never knew it was actually that atrocious.

 

[Dryk]

From a moral perspective I think we're very much on the same page. However while not on the same level of complicity as those turning the cogs I think he was more than just a part of the machine. The V-2 was finished in the latter part of the war so von Braun knew exactly what he was a part of. If he wasn't such a genius and of use to the Americans he may have been put on trial too.

Von Braun made it pretty clear he knew what he was doing. He just didn't care because it was a means for him to work on rocket technology that could later be applied to space-travel. He's your average military researcher that works towards peaceful technology and ignores how its actually being used by the powers that be because he likes to believe its not his problem. See also: Most of the scientists on the Manhattan project.

"Science does not have a moral dimension. It is like a knife.
If you give it to a surgeon or a murderer, each will use it differently."

Sadly the tories think that by saying something false enough times it can become true in people's minds.

Current Australian politics shows this is true

 

[airmangataosenai]

for us Americans:

are they worst than fox news?

As far as I know there are no actual complaints against current NHK broadcasting, just criticism over a few board hiring. NHK is in no way considered to be a biased outlet, which is why the recent comments caused such a huge reaction.

Honestly, the ignorant reactions in this thread are pretty absurd. I can't even find a single other major controversy related to the NHK, and this one isn't even over anything that was actually broadcast or done on the station, and yet it's being compared to nationalistic swill like Fox News? I'm an American too, but sometimes it feels like my fellow Americans will misuse any bad news, however relatively inconsequential, about another country in order to build up their own national image. Yes people should be concerned about these board members, but the problem is the people in here dismissing the entire organization in this manner based on this one news story.

 

[hirokazu]

Von Braun made it pretty clear he knew what he was doing. He just didn't care because it was a means for him to work on rocket technology that could later be applied to space-travel. He's your average military researcher that works towards peaceful technology and ignores how its actually being used by the powers that be because he likes to believe its not his problem. See also: Most of the scientists on the Manhattan project.

Yep. Whether he should have been tried or not was up to the Allied victors, but I do not feel outrage that he was not given that he didn't directly kill anyone as part of his research.

Unit 731 was a completely different beast and there is no question that those who were responsible were war criminals.

 

[EmiPrime]

May I ask why not? While they may not be perfect, the BBC seems like a pretty impartial source of news to me, an outside observer.

I already explained earlier in the thread. I think they cover international affairs decently enough so I can see why you would come to that conclusion but domestic coverage is a different beast entirely.

Current Australian politics shows this is true

The political situation in Australia sucks. I can't believe that massive cretin got elected.

 

[linsivvi]

Saying "to be fair the allies did some shit" in a thread where

1. no one is saying the allies were squeaky clean

2. about japan trying to rewrite history

is called bullshiting because it's a shitty attempt to create a false equivalency. There is nothing for you to point out because no one in here said the allies did nothing wrong during the war.

Pretty much. So far, his posts in the thread consist of:

1. Allies did a lot of bad things too, in a thread that has nothing to do with the Allies.

2. The Chinese did a lot of bad things to themselves too, they shouldn't be upset with what Japan does. Oh, and then minimalize visiting shrine housing war criminals.

I don't know why some people feel the need to divert blame.

 

[Phoenix]

Its always disturbing to hear such large revisions of history - especially when that player is also seeking to breach its constitutional articles of pacifism.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Its always disturbing to hear such large revisions of history - especially when that player is also seeking to breach its constitutional articles of pacifism.

Seeking to amend. Amend.

 

[sirap]

The fuck. My grandfather's family got fucked up by the invading Japanese (and subsequently the Chinese)

That shit happened, you can't change that :/

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I dont think it will change though.

Its more about "saving face", than accepting the facts. Its the same with Chinese. Everyone in China knows e.g. about the Tiananmen-massacre, think it was horrible, but then tell me that the one behind it is still living and they might wait till he is dead to announce it, similar to the horrible history of cultural revolution, which, thank God, the Chinese politicians accept (wish they would do the same about Mao).

Whenever there is such news about Japan, I really wonder how the "normal" people on the street think. How much does an average 18 year old Japanese know about that?

 

[hirokazu]

I dont think it will change though.

Its more about "saving face", than accepting the facts. Its the same with Chinese. Everyone in China knows e.g. about the Tiananmen-massacre, think it was horrible, but then tell me that the one behind it is still living and they might wait till he is dead to announce it, similar to the horrible history of cultural revolution, which, thank God, the Chinese politicians accept (wish they would do the same about Mao).

Whenever there is such news about Japan, I really wonder how the "normal" people on the street think. How much does an average 18 year old Japanese know about that?

The younger generation have only heard of Tiananmen in passing, they don't know the details of what transpired unless someone who does know tells them about it. Also, those people who eat the anti-Japanese propaganda in China readily defend the Tiananmen incident.

 

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Yeah, fuck this shit



Apparently atrocities are a-okay if everybody does it. Nice to hear!



Well you can always offer yourself too you piece of shit



lol not going to even touch this one



Nice to see there is some sense. I can only hope that these disgusting pieces of shit are shur down

Totally agreed man. This is some seriously messed up shit. The really shitty ones are rising to the top quickly with a little help from the like minded pm Abe. I knew it was going to get worse when his party was allowed to retake power last year after the DPJs Noda pretty much handed it back on a silver platter with promises of a tax hike.

Japan's political situation is completely shit right now. There's only one real power party left and that's Abe's LDP. The opposition is mostly minimized and unable to leverage any kind of voice to set back the bulldozing job the DPJ is set to do now that they're back in control of Japan.

The NHK should be strongly rebuked and reorganized but probably won't. The shithead at the top doesn't even see any reason for apology. I pay for NHK but I called up to levy a complaint and threatened to not pay for allowing their neutral network to be a political mouthpiece. I doubt they got many similar calls...

 

[nephilimdj]

Out of curiosity how is Japan before WWII even talked about in USA? Did they just magically go from Englands ally in WWI to evil?

Korean stuff was supported by USA: http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/Straight/timeline_text.html

 

[ЯAW]

As far as I know there are no actual complaints against current NHK broadcasting, just criticism over a few board hiring. NHK is in no way considered to be a biased outlet, which is why the recent comments caused such a huge reaction.

Honestly, the ignorant reactions in this thread are pretty absurd. I can't even find a single other major controversy related to the NHK, and this one isn't even over anything that was actually broadcast or done on the station, and yet it's being compared to nationalistic swill like Fox News? I'm an American too, but sometimes it feels like my fellow Americans will misuse any bad news, however relatively inconsequential, about another country in order to build up their own national image. Yes people should be concerned about these board members, but the problem is the people in here dismissing the entire organization in this manner based on this one news story.

Well there was the case of Toru Nakakita (had 20 year career at NHK radio). He was told stop nuclear commentary during the Tokyo elections. Glad he had some backbone and resigned.Abe points four board memebers and they all spout right-wing bull, I think it's fair to say NHK's future and it's credibility is at the stake. Hopefully shit doesn't hit the fan but I understand people being sceptical.

Momii: “We cannot say left when the government says right, it’s only natural for the network to follow official government narratives." Yeah, sounds really impartial.

 

[HORRORSHØW]

something something river in egypt.