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[bigol]

I'm really hoping FFXV is a turning point for Square. I'm really happy the game is reviewing and selling well, and I hope they dump this experience into FFXVI or whatever else they do in the future.

It really, really feels like Square is testing the ocean with this game. The DLC here isn't just adding story to the game...it's adding completely new gameplay perspectives. The DLC episodes are letting us control the party members, and future DLC has confirmed "Multiplayer", which I assume means we'll have a way to control all 4 party members at once.


There's a sliver of a chance that by the time FFXV gets a PC release, there will be some "definitive" version of the game that just shoehorns the DLC into the main campaign story, patches up the narrative thin areas, and allows us to switch party members in combat like FF12 and possibly even play with friends.

Ambitious, yeah, farfetched, probably. But almost everything about FFXV as a game is pretty ambitious.

You are not going to have a party but just the main character in each Dlc. You are not going to control four characters at once as you wish.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Patching in story isn't admirable. It means the team didn't have enough time or didn't do their jobs properly. The storytelling in XV isn't very good either.

How many people will really want to replay XV over something more cohesive like VII, VIII, IX, X?

I will?

It is far easier to replay something like FFXV than to replay the old games, to me atleast.

For those wondering why I'm more defensive of Square Enix's decision here as opposed to my criticism of Battlefront and Street Fighter V:

Final Fantasy XV has a ton of content. A TON of content. They didn't produce a shell of a game, they have enough shit in there to last you weeks.

The major problem with XV is creative rather than mechanical, which I think can be more easily forgiven due to the subjectivity of narrative. You can objectively look at the missing features of Battlefront and say "These features are not here."

Saying "the story in FF XV isn't good" is a matter of taste. I happened to enjoy the story as-is, even though it was also very frustrating in places.

This isn't so much a case of Square Enix deliberately releasing a bare-bones product and plugging in the important features later. Yes, the latter half of the game is rushed and it absolutely deserves criticism for that, but it's not like FFXV as a product was threadbare.

A lot of Early AAAccess games need to produce free content to be worth the MSRP. I'd argue FFXV does enough already to be worth its asking price, which is why I find them going back to add things more laudable - with caveats, of course.

Well said. I agree

 

[plagiarize]

For those wondering why I'm more defensive of Square Enix's decision here as opposed to my criticism of Battlefront and Street Fighter V:

Final Fantasy XV has a ton of content. A TON of content. They didn't produce a shell of a game, they have enough shit in there to last you weeks.

The major problem with XV is creative rather than mechanical, which I think can be more easily forgiven due to the subjectivity of narrative. You can objectively look at the missing features of Battlefront and say "These features are not here."

Saying "the story in FF XV isn't good" is a matter of taste. I happened to enjoy the story as-is, even though it was also very frustrating in places.

This isn't so much a case of Square Enix deliberately releasing a bare-bones product and plugging in the important features later. Yes, the latter half of the game is rushed and it absolutely deserves criticism for that, but it's not like FFXV as a product was threadbare.

A lot of Early AAAccess games need to produce free content to be worth the MSRP. I'd argue FFXV does enough already to be worth its asking price, which is why I find them going back to add things more laudable - with caveats, of course.

Hey there Jim, I've always wondered how you felt about things like Prince of Persia 2008's epilogue DLC, which many people frame as the developers trying to sell the 'real ending' via DLC. Personally I felt the game had a very good real ending, and never bought the epilogue DLC. Mainly because it wasn't on PC, where I played the game, but in no way did I feel like the ending I got wasn't good. Heck, I've watched the epilogue ending and I think it ruins things.

I haven't finished Dead Rising 4 yet, but I've heard people arguing it does much the same thing in trying to sell people the real ending, and you didn't mention that in your review...

So... what are your thoughts on those specific cases, because obviously this is a case by case kind of thing?

 

[Phaezyk]

For those wondering why I'm more defensive of Square Enix's decision here as opposed to my criticism of Battlefront and Street Fighter V:

Final Fantasy XV has a ton of content. A TON of content. They didn't produce a shell of a game, they have enough shit in there to last you weeks.

The major problem with XV is creative rather than mechanical, which I think can be more easily forgiven due to the subjectivity of narrative. You can objectively look at the missing features of Battlefront and say "These features are not here."

Saying "the story in FF XV isn't good" is a matter of taste. I happened to enjoy the story as-is, even though it was also very frustrating in places.

This isn't so much a case of Square Enix deliberately releasing a bare-bones product and plugging in the important features later. Yes, the latter half of the game is rushed and it absolutely deserves criticism for that, but it's not like FFXV as a product was threadbare.

A lot of Early AAAccess games need to produce free content to be worth the MSRP. I'd argue FFXV does enough already to be worth its asking price, which is why I find them going back to add things more laudable - with caveats, of course.

Yeah, I'm over 150 hours in at this point and I'm still doing sidequests and hunts and other good stuff. I've only managed to progress the story to chapter 9, I just love exploring the world and doing stuff in it.

 

[Lutherian]

Tales of New Game+ with he Grade Shop always motivates me to do another run (espcially Symphonia to get all the romances, endings and items). It's the best way to make me wants to play more and more a +60h long RPG.

 

[DarkLordMalik]

Yeah, I'm over 150 hours in at this point and I'm still doing sidequests and hunts and other good stuff. I've only managed to progress the story to chapter 9, I just love exploring the world and doing stuff in it.

I refuse to believe it o_0

That is sure...... one heck of a way to play the game

 

[Clear]

I refuse to believe it o_0

That is sure...... one heck of a way to play the game

Not unreasonable, its not like that much requires post-game to unlock.

Spoiler

And the longer you play, the better the payoff too.

 

[Pantaghana]

You saw some mushrooms on the floor? Jesus fuck man, clean up once in a while...

 

[Pygrus]

This is a really slippery slope.

FFXVs story is not terrible, as much as people on gaf might lead you to believe, but it has its issues.

The story is intriguing enough where it is at but the patches are just going to make it even better.

However, if this works well for Square in the end, I could see more companies trying this but not delivering in the end.

I don't want this to be industry standard.

I'm glad to see FFXV has that weird hold on him that it seems to be having on a lot of people. It really is crazy how high quality it feels, even after all the crap the game had to go through.

 

[Senoculum]

Every time I rush through 7, 8, or 9 I die somewhere because I didn't grind for 2 extra hours and it's usually at a point where I didn't save for 45 minutes -- the worst! Plus, there's always a point somewhere where you have to fast forward the story just to "get on with it." Fantastic experiences, but they have very little replayability for me.

15 has skyrocketed to be one of my favourites in the franchise for the exact reason that it's an awesome game to play, watch, feel, and listen to. There's also a level of attention to detail which hasn't been seen in the series since FF12 (my personal favourite). I'm talking about battle stances and animations, SFX, VFX, extraneous text to read, unlisted side quests, and loads more.

 

[Geg]

Are there spoilers in the video?

Sort of, it mentions a specific character who got kind of left behind/forgotten by the narrative, and is also the character Tabata named as being the subject of a future story patch.

 

[Asd202]

Did Jim even review XV? I'm genuinely curious what score he would give it.

 

[Mugaaz]

This is a really slippery slope.

FFXVs story is not terrible, as much as people on gaf might lead you to believe, but it has its issues.

The story is intriguing enough where it is at but the patches are just going to make it even better.

However, if this works well for Square in the end, I could see more companies trying this but not delivering in the end.

I don't want this to be industry standard.

I'm glad to see FFXV has that weird hold on him that it seems to be having on a lot of people. It really is crazy how high quality it feels, even after all the crap the game had to go through.

How is the story *not* terrible? On what metric does the story actually succeed?

Spoiler free critique of the story:

There is no real plot. Things happen in the world and the characters react, but there is no overall strategy or plan to their actions
The characters collect unexplained McGuffin devices for most of the chapter's stories
The story sequences don't logically flow
The story is not understandable without watching other media
Character's motivations and views change without explanation
There are large missing gaps in the timeline for no reason
Multiple characters serve no purpose in the storytelling or for gameplay
Characters act contrary to their prior stated views without reason
There is virtually no character growth or change in relationships between the characters, and when it does happen it is unexplained
The character deaths that happen have no emotional impact because the characters had insufficient screen time for the other characters (or the player) to develop any meaningful relationship with them
The characters that were killed were killed so needlessly. The killers had no explainable motivation as either why they wanted murdered them or why they murdered them at that specific time and place
Multiple story segments explaining the character relationships are obviously supposed to exist and were removed

I liked FF15, but it was in spite of the story, not because of it. The gameplay, combat, world design, dungeon design, and open world exploration are why the game was enjoyable.

 

[MMarston]

Somehow I figured Jim took inspiration the Zorn and Thorn theme from FF9 as his music.


Glad to see that somewhat confirmed.

 

[Brazil]

Jim, for Christ's sake, it's "Versus XIII", not "XIII Versus". COME ON JIM

(Great episode.)

 

[Steroyd]

I think it's nice they're going to the trouble of fixing it.

It shouldn't have been released in such a state though , so I don't really feel like I want to praise them or anything for fixing something that shouldn't have been a problem in the first place you know.

I'm also not convinced they'll entirely fix it, but I'm cynical like that. I hope I'm wrong, because the potential for the story to be fantastic is there.

I don't know, if we put this into perspective in regards to previous games where Japan would get the 1.0 version and the rest of the world would get an updated 1.2 version then FFXV falls in line with SE's regular MO in regards to how they updated their games from the PS2 era, the only difference is that this is a worldwide release and every copy can be updated globally in real-time.

Yes it's a scary precedent set by SE, but this isn't too new to how SE have operated with previous good FF games.

 

[Koozek]

Did Jim even review XV? I'm genuinely curious what score he would give it.

Not yet, but he liked it:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Gyr1K5Z.png[/IMG]

 

[Greatest Ever]

Sterling the critic being shit is nothing new. The video makes good points, and I wonder if there could ever be an all encompassing SP FF in the vein of an MMO that is constantly updated.

 

[Pygrus]

How is the story *not* terrible? On what metric does the story actually succeed?

Spoiler free critique of the story:

There is no real plot. Things happen in the world and the characters react, but there is no overall strategy or plan to their actions
The characters collect unexplained McGuffin devices for most of the chapter's stories
The story sequences don't logically flow
The story is not understandable without watching other media
Character's motivations and views change without explanation
There are large missing gaps in the timeline for no reason
Multiple characters serve no purpose in the storytelling or for gameplay
Characters act contrary to their prior stated views without reason
There is virtually no character growth or change in relationships between the characters, and when it does happen it is unexplained
The character deaths that happen have no emotional impact because the characters had insufficient screen time for the other characters (or the player) to develop any meaningful relationship with them
The characters that were killed were killed so needlessly. The killers had no explainable motivation as either why they wanted murdered them or why they murdered them at that specific time and place
Multiple story segments explaining the character relationships are obviously supposed to exist and were removed

I liked FF15, but it was in spite of the story, not because of it. The gameplay, combat, world design, dungeon design, and open world exploration are why the game was enjoyable.

I'm not saying I loved the FF15 story, but it is a serviceable story. It made me feel emotion and root for the main cast of characters. The overall package creates a interesting world and lore. The story that takes place in it has a lot of holes, but you can fill in those holes with information given in side conversations and information dumps that appear throughout the game.

There is a plot and I don't know how you failed to see it. I can follow plot points just fine, portions are lacking exposition.

Also, some of this stuff you list is outright wrong. They do explain what the Royal Arms do, they make Noctis more powerful. They give you a stat boost, that make Noctis more powerful. Just like Cor said they would.

 

[Mugaaz]

I can't argue this further without getting into spoilers.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Unless they patch the game to make me give a shit about what happens at the end of ch 9, then I don't see me replaying it.

 

[Salty Rice]

Many people act like they would fix or change the story what isnt true.

They just flesh out and show stuff that you already know and got told you in game.

I personally dont need to see every shit that happened and use my imagination instead.

Shit like this is one of the reasons why evey fucking game or movie needs to have prequels nowadays.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I would not have been as easy on FF15 as Jim, but atleast he mentioned it. But he really does hate TLG.

Ueda games are usually divisive though, so i don't really blame him that much. he didn't like any of the previous ueda games which generally means he wasn't going to like this one.

 

[Timeaisis]

Jim, I love ya but that Ramuh puzzle section in IX, while dumb, lasts a whole 20 minutes, while chapter 13 is like 2-3 hours. Can't even compare.

 

[Clear]

Jim, I love ya but that Ramuh puzzle section in IX, while dumb, lasts a whole 20 minutes, while chapter 13 is like 2-3 hours. Can't even compare.

Yeah but practically every fight in IX takes an eternity because of its slow-as-molasses combat system

 

[Parshias7]

I don't have an issue with SE wanting to improve the story that is there, but I am disappointed in the timing.

Here I'm playing FFXV and enjoying it, right now in Chapter 8, and I feel like Square is telling me to stop playing now because if I continue to play a game I enjoy I'll end up playing a worse product than if I decide to take a two week break or however long until the patch is out.

I'm absolutely not playing the game a second time, so I feel oddly hamstrung here with my playing time.

 

[LAA]

Awesome video. Looking forward to Jim's review too!

Personally I was hoping for Witcher 3 style post game support and so far it's looking like that'll happen, but new narrative and cutscenes are definitely the most interesting thing. I think if they're capable and willing of making an already good game even better and bigger, I'm all for it, especially a game I personally have wanted for 10 years ha ha.
As others have said and I've thought, a lot of people have beat the game already, so it feels the people who bought it day 1 may not get to experience these changes, which feels a shame and makes it just seem too late for some if not mant, but for me personally NG+ will probably get me back in I think and hopefully they add ways to experience the changes more quickly.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I don't have an issue with SE wanting to improve the story that is there, but I am disappointed in the timing.

Here I'm playing FFXV and enjoying it, right now in Chapter 8, and I feel like Square is telling me to stop playing now because if I continue to play a game I enjoy I'll end up playing a worse product than if I decide to take a two week break or however long until the patch is out.

I'm absolutely not playing the game a second time, so I feel oddly hamstrung here with my playing time.

Were likely talking about a couple of minutes of cutscenes in a 100 hour game. If you like the game just play it.

 

[Azoor]

Someone might correct me on this, but didn't Tony Hawk 5 come out only as a tutorial and Activision patched the entire rest of the game later ? I think a that's a more extreme example of Patch culture Jim was talking about.

 

[Ketkat]

They do explain what the Royal Arms do, they make Noctis more powerful. They give you a stat boost, that make Noctis more powerful. Just like Cor said they would.

Which kind of just makes them Mcguffins.

 

[Garlador]

Someone might correct me on this, but didn't Tony Hawk 5 come out only as a tutorial and Activision patched the entire rest of the game later ? I think a that's a more extreme example of Patch culture Jim was talking about.

You are correct.

Tragically so.

 

[Servbot24]

I'm also not convinced they'll entirely fix it, but I'm cynical like that. I hope I'm wrong, because the potential for the story to be fantastic is there.

I think that's just common sense rather than cynicism.

 

[PshycoNinja]

Great video, Jim! It was a fun watch!

 

[Peroroncino]

so weird seeing him without the red glasses..

Yeah... I can't say I dig those glasses in the vid.

I was surprised when he said his favourite FF is IX, not a popular opinion (probably as rare as Luna's character development in XV) but definitely one I agree with. IX all the way.

 

[Ralemont]

Which kind of just makes them Mcguffins.

Eh not really. MacGuffins drive the plot for basically unexplained reasons. It's very clear why Noctis needs Royal Arms and how they help him. For a counterexample, the Conduit was a MacGuffin in ME1. Everyone was after it even though no one had any clue what it did.

 

[BocoDragon]

I feel like a game like XV would be perfect for a major story patch that only adds more beautiful cutscenes. Something about the open world nature of it means that you could imagine a lot more happened with that tale offscreen. And with a NG+ option a year down the road? Perfect.

Not to be too exbuberant about it, because it is about fixing something that should have been fixed at launch.... but if they do it, I'd be pleased in the long term, and not upset. XV is almost a wonderful story, so I'd be happy to see it realized to its fuller potential.

 

[PshycoNinja]

Eh not really. MacGuffins drive the plot for basically unexplained reasons. It's very clear why Noctis needs Royal Arms and how they help him. For a counterexample, the Conduit was a MacGuffin in ME1. Everyone was after it even though no one had any clue what it did.

Yeah. [END OF GAME SPOILER]

Spoiler

Noctis needs the Royal Arms, Astrals, and the Ring to beat Ardyn. It shows all the things he acquires throughout the game in his last battle.

 

[Gai Murakumo]

Will watch later. I am interested to see Jim's take on XV's story and the non or lack of explanation of quite a number of things that takes place in it.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

A good, balanced video.

For those wondering why I'm more defensive of Square Enix's decision here as opposed to my criticism of Battlefront and Street Fighter V:

Final Fantasy XV has a ton of it. A TON of it. They didn't produce a shell of a game, they have enough shit in there to last you weeks.

The major problem with XV is creative rather than mechanical, which I think can be more easily forgiven due to the subjectivity of narrative. You can objectively look at the missing features of Battlefront and say "These features are not here."

Saying "the story in FF XV isn't good" is a matter of taste. I happened to enjoy the story as-is, even though it was also very frustrating in places.

This isn't so much a case of Square Enix deliberately releasing a bare-bones product and plugging in the important features later. Yes, the latter half of the game is rushed and it absolutely deserves criticism for that, but it's not like FFXV as a product was threadbare.

A lot of Early AAAccess games need to produce free content to be worth the MSRP. I'd argue FFXV does enough already to be worth its asking price, which is why I find them going back to add things more laudable - with caveats, of course.

Good point (as it came out very late instead of very early HAH!)

 

[moondoggerr]

FF XV has so much goodwill with me. It's such an impressive package the creators have earned some benefit of the doubt. It's amazing.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I think like me (now that I beat it) the broness and the ending make up for the vast shortcomings of the game.

 

[The Antitype]

"Final Fantasy 9, aka The Best Final Fantasy"

Man just got a new subscriber for life.

 

[Professional Enthusiast]

A good drinking game to play is to take a drink every time he says 'beautiful boys' during this episode.

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

I actually agree with the sentiment he's making about gamers but I don't agree with what he says about ICO, weirdly. Anyway, things change. He could've changed his mind, no need to call him an "outright fucking liar".

I think it's true for most mediums. That once a "popular consensus" is form you'll have those go along with the flow. Though, you'll also have those who'll intentionally be contrarian.

 

[Tizoc]

Hey there Jim, I've always wondered how you felt about things like Prince of Persia 2008's epilogue DLC, which many people frame as the developers trying to sell the 'real ending' via DLC. Personally I felt the game had a very good real ending, and never bought the epilogue DLC. Mainly because it wasn't on PC, where I played the game, but in no way did I feel like the ending I got wasn't good. Heck, I've watched the epilogue ending and I think it ruins things.

I haven't finished Dead Rising 4 yet, but I've heard people arguing it does much the same thing in trying to sell people the real ending, and you didn't mention that in your review...

So... what are your thoughts on those specific cases, because obviously this is a case by case kind of thing?

There were criticisms of asura's wrath and casltevania los' epilogues

 

[Croyles]

I mean, I'd have read and verified what was said in the provided text before using the term "massive fucking liar" but that's just me.

I might have not suggested anyone who likes Ico is a "massive fucking liar" but thats just me

 

[Renekton]

Bookmarked, will watch at home 👷

 

[blanco21]

reading the 4chan leaks about what ff15 could have been sorta reminded me of xenogears...in a way

 

[Jim Sterling]

I might have not suggested anyone who likes Ico is a "massive fucking liar" but thats just me

I wrote that when I was younger and a toolbag. It's a really, really old article.

These days I'd frame my contempt a little more diplomatically.

 

[Dargor]

I wrote that when I was younger and a toolbag. It's a really, really old article.

These days I'd frame my contempt a little more diplomatically.

Nah, you just have an awful taste for games, thats all. Fuck, you like dinasty warriors!

Spoiler

I'm j/k, of course. Just adding this to make sure everyone knows, in case the winky face wasn't enough of a giveaway.