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[Koozek]

Oh man. I expected much more from Blow. Been following him for years and always thought him more reflected that this. Very disappointing.

I actually expect that he would be willing to stand corrected after reading some of the very good replies pointing out how weak and ignorant his argumentation is. Or at least I'd hope so.

 

[Auto-Reply]

A lot of what is considered to be free speech has a direct effect on people, the "free" part is onesided, the other side has to pay for that in form of harrasment and attacks.

 

[mp1990]

I really don't understand some of the people here.
You can't punch people in the face or destroy property if you dislike them. Even if you call them Nazis.
You live in a democratic country. That's what laws and courts are for.
You are not allowed to take law into your own hands. That's not how it works.
If you feel so strongly about it, make sure the law changes to ban speakers like Milo.
Get people to vote. Get people to be involved in politics.
You cant just ignore the laws of you country because your favorite candidate lost the election.
Protest, write letters to media,senators or whatever you do in the USA. That's fine.
But advocating violence?
You are not living in Africa or the middle east (I am) where the governments can be corrupt or religious beyond repair. In that case I might have accepted "violence is the only way". But in the USA? No way.

I live in Israel. Here is a picture of a protest in Tel Aviv University against a lecture by an actual terrorist who served 4 years in prison for it (probably released due to some political deal):

That's how it's supposed to work in a democratic country.
And you guys are trying to defend using violence over a speech by Milo? That sounds insane to me.

yeah guys israel is the model of democracy we should follow

 

[Machina]

Sigh, and I was enjoying my renewed play through of The Witness last night.

At what point is the USA - no - the world, going to realise that if these people get their way there is only one recourse for the good people of this world to stop them. Violence. It will be the only way to remove them from the places of power they are currently entrenching themselves in. I wish there was another way, but polite discourse is how these evil people will keep us crushed under their jackboots.

I'm not denying that these people are fascists at heart, because actions speak louder than words, but there is a time and place to start throwing around threats of violence. Namely, when the shit has well and truly hit the fan.

The moment prominent people of minorities and Trump's harshest political opponents start disappearing into black bags, then you can take to the streets with the pitchforks. Draw a line, and if they cross it, rub their face in it.

Until then, throwing around the term Nazi and fascist willy nilly only serves to cheapen the terminology, and that is not what we want.

 

[Yado]

So much negativity in this thread just because someone politely expressed his opinion.

There are lots of people who agree with Jonathan, they just don't say anything because they´re fucking scared of such behavior or, simply doesn't want to try to argue with someone that comes to a debate with stones in his hand.

That's sad as fuck.

The opinions in here are being politely expressed too. What's the issue?

 

[Lime]

So much negativity in this thread just because someone politely expressed his opinion.

There are lots of people who agree with Jonathan, they just don't say anything because they´re fucking scared of such behavior or, simply doesn't want to try to argue with someone that comes to a debate with stones in his hand.

That's sad as fuck.

When will Blow and these scared
moderate people speak out and support the marginalized groups and protesters? At what point do these moderates think enough is enough and help fight the nazis? When they gerrymander the districts even more? When they enforce voter suppression? When they stop investigating white extremism (they already did that)? When they shoot a protester (they already did that)? When they attack a mosque and kill 6 people (they already did that)? When they ban an entire region solely based on religion and nationality (they already did that)? When we are on the way to the camps?

 

[KORNdoggy]

While I appreciate that you are being understanding, it is incorrect to assume both that all principles are equally valued by a person and that freedom of speech is inherently cherished by the left. As you are aware, Europe is generally further left than we are yet countries also have more strict laws about hate speech.

this is the main problem with america. freedom of speech is seen as some trump card with zero consequences. the idea of some racist shit bag being given a platform to spread hate just seems completely backwards to me.

this will continue for the next 4 years though. you have a country divided in 2, full of angry people who feel ignored, desperate, losing basic human rights and are willing to do anything to spark change...violence included. and considering who this violence is being aimed at, i can't say i object.

sometimes a good old fashioned riot gets the message across clearer than a peaceful one that is clearly ignored and forgotten once it's over.

the world is turning more and more into some sort of mirror of the V for vendetta movie. the solution in that movie was to fight violence with violence and blow shit up, i imagine that's what's going to happen to america, and probably the world these next few years.

 

[Nheco]

But this violence and destruction wouldn't have existed if the speaker hadn't focussed his carreer on spreading hate and intolerance.

Free speech should not apply to hateful rhetoric. It is emotional terrorism.

Free speech is free speech. If you start doing concessions like this, it's not free speech at all. If there a commission to decides what is free speech and what is not, there are no free speech.

If you don't like or don't agree with something, you can't just revoke the rights of someone to speak it.

Free speech should be granted as it is as long isn't about illegal stuff. That's all.

 

[jakonovski]

I really don't understand some of the people here.
You can't punch people in the face or destroy property if you dislike them. Even if you call them Nazis.
You live in a democratic country. That's what laws and courts are for.
You are not allowed to take law into your own hands. That's not how it works.
If you feel so strongly about it, make sure the law changes to ban speakers like Milo.
Get people to vote. Get people to be involved in politics.
You cant just ignore the laws of you country because your favorite candidate lost the election.
Protest, write letters to media,senators or whatever you do in the USA. That's fine.
But advocating violence?
You are not living in Africa or the middle east (I am) where the governments can be corrupt or religious beyond repair. In that case I might have accepted "violence is the only way". But in the USA? No way.

I live in Israel. Here is a picture of a protest in Tel Aviv University against a lecture by an actual terrorist who served 4 years in prison for it (probably released due to some political deal):

That's how it's supposed to work in a democratic country.
And you guys are trying to defend using violence over a speech by Milo? That sounds insane to me.

One of the big news of the past couple of weeks is federal courts being ignored by enforcement agencies.

 

[Yoshi]

Not a single mainstream party in Germany would partner with the AfD. They need 50%+ if they want to rule anything and thankfully this is not happening - even in this crazy times we´re living in.

Not this time, not under Merkel, but CDU has already had a coalition with PRO (Schill) in the past and I would definitely not put it past CDU / CSU, under a different leader, to form a coalition with the AfD. Thankfully, Merkel is not one to do this, especially as a pro-european, but I could not say the same about Seehofer, for instance.

 

[plagiarize]

We all like to complain about what Trump is doing pushing people to the wrong side when it comes to ISIS, then shit like Berkeley happens where people are beaten unconscious in a riot because they hold a different(read awful) opinion and you guys dont think this will just incite more people into joining Trump? Milo could have had his little shitty speech but now he has had a week of amazing advertisement out all this horseshit happening, he actually feeds on this and you are doing exactly what he wants.

His book sales have spiked on Amazon. So.

Also, maybe some of these folks defending Milo's right to speech should actually look up the first amendment and the various laws?

This notion that free speech is unfettered and always has a right to be unencumbered is ridiculous. Even more so when the government isn't even the acting agent.

Don't expose yourself as ignorant on politics, then doubly so on the law.

Right, this isn't a freedom of speech issue. His platform has been elevated thanks to this. He'll get more interviews. More book sales. More speaking agreements. More hits on his articles.

Violence is never the answer to winning an argument. Legal protest and criticism works. Violence doesn't seem to.

 

[d00d3n]

"Won't someone please think of the fascists!"



The Witness was a painfully dull puzzle game dressed up with meaningless pretentious quotes.

The Witness was a top 10 game in the Neogaf 2016 GOTY Awards and had a disproportionately large number of #1 listings. You are entitled to your minority dissent, though!

 

[kingocfs]

So the left is no longer about trying to "understand the truth," huh?

Yikes.

 

[ar4757]

Good, the riots are criminal acts. Like others said, some people may deserve to get punched but that doesn't mean you should/can just do it. I know a couple people who go to Berkeley and they said the violent rioters are professional (paid) rioters who do this all the time. Sounds like George Soros up to no good

 

[UrbanRats]

I think riots being "not OK" is kind of the point? They're supposed to disrupt a system that is unable or unwilling to listen.

I'm not going to advocate for violence myself, just the thought of it makes me very uncomfortable, but this isn't just a normal exchange of ideas and opinions we're seeing.

To ignore this aspect and then wonder why people are so angry is stupid.

There is no realistic way to have a calm debate, when fascist ideologies are being proposed, unless you want to forget the whole 20th century thing.

 

[Primethius]

I'm not denying that these people are fascists at heart, because actions speak louder than words, but there is a time and place to start throwing around threats of violence. Namely, when the shit has well and truly hit the fan.

The moment prominent people of minorities and Trump's harshest political opponents start disappearing into black bags, then you can take to the streets with the pitchforks. Draw a line, and if they cross it, rub their face in it.

Until then, throwing around the term Nazi and fascist willy nilly only serves to cheapen the terminology, and that is not what we want.

That's when you want to draw the line?

What the fuck.

 

[Deku Tree]

I wonder where Jonathan Blow stands on the issue of police murdering unarmed civilians.

 

[Nheco]

The opinions in here are being politely expressed too. What's the issue?

They are not. People are burning stuff, people are beating and threatening other people, please don't be condescend.

 

[RionaaM]

His point about "Punch Nazi in face!" is pretty good and reminds me a lot of McCarthyism. Take a look at the latest South Park thread in the OT to see how little you have to do to be labeled "alt right scum".

No, it isn't good at all. The problem isn't people being called nazis, it is them being such a horrible thing, whether someone calls them out or not. The problem is those assholes' hateful views being called "different opinions" which should be heard and need to be debated. You don't debate those things, you don't give them a platform, you don't legitimize them. You can't debate whether minorities are human beings who deserve to have rights, because that would be entertaining the dreadful notion that it may not be the case. Hate and intolerance should never be tolerated.

And the problem definitely isn't people who are actively fighting fascism. If you see a protest and then go "Oh well, guess I'll start supporting those hateful, racist guys now" you were probably never going to support inclusion and equality in the first place, so stop acting like you are on a moral high ground (I'm not addressing this to you, of course, I mean the rhetorical "you").

 

[Hot Coldman]

That's how it's supposed to work in a democratic country.
And you guys are trying to defend using violence over a speech by Milo? That sounds insane to me.

Two things here. Firstly, it feels harsh to behold the people of the US to notions of democracy when the current admin a) lost the popular vote and b) is basically being ran by a white supremacist who was on no ballot paper. But whatever, I'm not too fussed about this point, if you're conceding democracy is being defended then it should be done in a democractic fashion, sure.

Secondly, and more pertinently to the point at hand here, Milo's speeches are violence. The vitriol and public shaming of transgender people - the sky-high suicide rates of transgender people - these aren't coincidences, they're directly correlated, and giving people like Milo a platform is just going to lead to more anti-trans bigotry, and the natural conclusion of that. His speeches are violence, and a much more permanent type of violence whatever the consequences.

So I don't think the Berkley protest went well at all - but at least the damage it did can be fixed.

 

[george_us]

Nope. Anyone who "speaks out" against my, and many other minorities', rights as a human fucking being needs to be punched. Giving these assholes a 'voice' is why things have gotten as bad as they are.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Honestly, (not that the rioters aren't at fault) but I blame the school. They caused and started this mess by compromising their academic environment, and giving a platform to a professional troll in the first place.

 

[LordRaptor]

I don't think you understand the purpose of debate with Nazis. It's not to convince those Nazis--it's to convince everyone else.

Right now, with Nazis being a fringe minority in the US (albeit an emboldened one), violence against them will only garner sympathy and boost their support. "Punching Nazis" is something that feels good but will lead to disaster: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-28-punching-nazis

This.
Its ideological warfare, and its entirely deliberate, because those who espouse hatred don't believe in free speech, or equality, or the right to peaceful assembly, or any of the values most people hold sacred, and are basically trolling those who do into either abandoning their ideals or devolving into in-fighting and ideological purity tests.

 

[Anung]

I'm not denying that these people are fascists at heart, because actions speak louder than words, but there is a time and place to start throwing around threats of violence. Namely, when the shit has well and truly hit the fan.

The moment prominent people of minorities and Trump's harshest political opponents start disappearing into black bags, then you can take to the streets with the pitchforks. Draw a line, and if they cross it, rub their face in it.

Until then, throwing around the term Nazi and fascist willy nilly only serves to cheapen the terminology, and that is not what we want.

I don't think waiting until people are being black bagged and loaded into internment camps is the best time to then start giving a fuck about protesting it and trying to halt it. Probably best trying to get out in front shit and stop innocents, immigrants, minorities and the LGBT community from being hurt and hated on (futher)

I don't get it since when is calling a spade a spade a bad thing? Calling these people what they are cheapens the word that they are?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

They are not. People are burning stuff, people are beating and threatening other people, please don't be condescend.

Burning stuff in a message board ?_?

Also, I'm still wondering what your answer will be to Lime's post above.

 

[Riposte]

Less likely: We need to heroically punch bigoted internet celebrities (and only them) to stop marginally related elected officials from committing another holocaust.

More likely: Punching people (actually, fantasizing about punching people) makes you feel good when you are frustrated and consumed with resentment.

 

[Pikma]

Wow he's actually defending that racist piece of shit?

I always had little to no respect for Blow but this is a new low for him, congrats I guess...

 

[Garrett Hawke]

You know things are bad when being against nazis is a "far left extremist opinion".

 

[Primethius]

His book sales have spiked on Amazon. So.



Right, this isn't a freedom of speech issue. His platform has been elevated thanks to this. He'll get more interviews. More book sales. More speaking agreements. More hits on his articles.

Violence is never the answer to winning an argument. Legal protest and criticism works. Violence doesn't seem to.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

 

[True Fire]

The rioters are a known anarchist group who like to take advantage of protests. I'm usually not a fan of "false flag" conspiracy theories, but the writing is on the wall with this one

 

[mp1990]

You know things are bad when being against nazis is a "far left extremist opinion".

i'm surprised no one said "alt-left" yet

 

[Machina]

That's when you want to draw the line?

What the fuck.

You seriously took that statement literally?

 

[LordRaptor]

I mean, sure, you might really want to punch Milo in the face, but if you wanted to really undermine what hes saying you'd honeytrap him in an inter-racial gang bang and see what credibility he has with his base when photos of that are all over twitter.

 

[Primethius]

You seriously took that statement literally?

In this thread and on gaming side GAF?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Village]

I'm not denying that these people are fascists at heart, because actions speak louder than words, but there is a time and place to start throwing around threats of violence. Namely, when the shit has well and truly hit the fan. .

I'm not going to assume what race, you are. I don't know.

But i'm black, and I'm advocating people getting armed.
I would rather not wait untill the lynchings begin, I am way too not white to wait untill shit hits the fan. Which is the point that jon, Defranco and a lot of other folks who want to do this whole " everyone has a point thing" seems to miss. They can humor that shit, because they are white dudes who at the end of the day only have to feel icky about people being racist. Instead of ... you know dealing with the consequences of that.

Like... you know.... racism.

Do I think they need to go outside attacking people ,god no. Do I even think the people burning shit at the protest were good people, nope. Do I think we need to wait untill shit hits the fan, no. That's how race purges start.

There was a sign during the ban protests which read

" first they cam for the muslims but we said not today fucker!"

I'm for that approach. Don't give a mother fucker an inch

 

[Spring-Loaded]

You seriously took that statement literally?

Where's the line, then? Even just a general location will do.

 

[clockworkinyou]

And that's why I never purchased Braid nor will I purchase Witness to support this shitbag. Him trying to justify anything other than the property damage part, is fucking idiotic.

Fuck you Blow.

 

[Anung]

You seriously took that statement literally?

Dude its getting really hard to tell anymore. That Milo thread in OT was full of just as much apologist shit.

 

[Hot Coldman]

i'm surprised no one said "alt-left" yet

Fox News literally used "alt-left" the other day because of some graffiti that said (I shit you not) "No Fascist USA"

anyway, alt-right is a shite term too, what's wrong with Hitler Youth

 

[Moosichu]

I agree that rioting, looting and breaking stuff is bad, and not the right or most effective way to protest against faschism.

Doesn't make the rioters the 'real faschists' though. Faschism is a politcal ideology, not a term for 'people I don't like', and Milo is one.

 

[Claude Augario]

That's when you want to draw the line?

What the fuck.

"You can rape me, beat me, invalidate my marriage, ban me based on my religion, frisk me based on my skin color, abolish my healthcare and even sterilize my race. But if you kill me, that's where I draw the line and get my pitchfork."

"But you'd be dead."

"....Fuck!"

 

[GLAMr]

Blow and those in agreement with him:

This image made my day

 

[Bold One]

Blow and those in agreement with him:

pretty much this

 

[Machina]

I don't think waiting until people are being black bagged and loaded into internment camps is the best time to then start giving a fuck about protesting it and trying to halt it. Probably best trying to get out in front shit and stop innocents, immigrants, minorities and the LGBT community from being hurt and hated on (futher)

I don't get it since when is calling a spade a spade a bad thing? Calling these people what they are cheapens the word that they are?

That shit is never going away and you know it. Yes it's despicable, but humans gonna human. That crap has been going on for centuries. And I'm pretty sure I wasn't talking about protesting, I was talking about violence.

 

[Audioboxer]

I really don't understand some of the people here.
You can't punch people in the face or destroy property if you dislike them. Even if you call them Nazis.
You live in a democratic country. That's what laws and courts are for.
You are not allowed to take law into your own hands. That's not how it works.
If you feel so strongly about it, make sure the law changes to ban speakers like Milo.
Get people to vote. Get people to be involved in politics.
You cant just ignore the laws of you country because your favorite candidate lost the election.
Protest, write letters to media,senators or whatever you do in the USA. That's fine.
But advocating violence?
You are not living in Africa or the middle east (I am) where the governments can be corrupt or religious beyond repair. In that case I might have accepted "violence is the only way". But in the USA? No way.

I live in Israel. Here is a picture of a protest in Tel Aviv University against a lecture by an actual terrorist who served 4 years in prison for it (probably released due to some political deal):

That's how it's supposed to work in a democratic country.
And you guys are trying to defend using violence over a speech by Milo? That sounds insane to me.

If it's any food for thought for yourself, remember you are just on a forum. The majority talking about violence won't be violent themselves. The majority will know the legal separation between self-defense and being the provoker/assaulter. When we're discussing terrible people who use words to offend/smear, it's just the push-back opposition doing the same in most cases, using words that they'll be 'punching or assaulting individuals/fans'. Most won't. Those that do routinely get arrested or ultimately end up being those that actually lose (jail/fines/sacked from work or kicked out of Uni/etc).

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Free speech is free speech. If you start doing concessions like this, it's not free speech at all. If there a commission to decides what is free speech and what is not, there are no free speech.

If you don't like or don't agree with something, you can't just revoke the rights of someone to speak it.

Free speech should be granted as it is as long isn't about illegal stuff. That's all.

At least in Belgium this is the law. Free speech is important, but it shouldn't give you the right to stand in the middle of a crowded road with a megaphone and hurl fascism and racism at everyone. His words hurt people.

We cannot and should not be tolerant of all that is happening in the last months. We shouldn't protest violently and we shouldn't destroy property over it either, but I almost see that as cause and effect in this case. Those crimes are an extension of Milo's hate speech. Most likely part of his greater strategy too. These violent protests are helping the GOP.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

You have to wonder, if someone who believed ISIS' ideology booked a university talk and the protests got violent, would blow and co still defend freeze peach?

 

[grfunkulus]

Peaceful protesting is the way to go. But very noisey and relentless protesting, of course.

I get what blow is saying but him saying he doesn't consider himself left wing oriented anymore just because of the actions of some groups in the left is a bit ridiculous.

This is about either having a progressive and humanitarian secular society or a regressive reactionary protectionist one that is just going against the common interest of humanity as a whole. Either you are with the first group or you are against it.

All these equidistant positions some people like Blow or Collin from Kinda Funny feel comfortable adopting will just not fix anything and just works to make them feel better about not doing anything to fix the problem which is, obviously, an educational deficit and a lack of a humanitarian culture and realistic world view.

We have huge issues to solve in the next 3 decades and we will get nowhere if every country is just screaming "My country first!".

This. So much this. I voted for Hilary. Twice (primaries and general), and I won't apologize for it.

If Biden ran I would have voted for him. Despite the flaws the jaded masses (think) they saw, they should have just nutted up and went with for the choice who is clearly in the former camp (ignoring her personal religion--which I do believe she holds deeply but doesn't seek to impose on anyone, unlike Trump who holds nothing but his own ego sacred and seeks to impose it on everyone).

 

[Dremark]

i'm surprised no one said "alt-left" yet

I think it's alt-right and ctrl-left.

 

[RionaaM]

What if we're the fascists?

Is this shit real? Damn, you just made me lose a lot of respect for the guy. Gotta love how he says "I have read almost nothing of what Milo has written", only to write "Milo is pretty good at drawing the line in the right place" less than 6 sentences later.

"I don't know who this person is or what they're talking about, but stop calling them a nazi and let them say what they want. Otherwise you are the fascist." C'mon Blow, I thought you were better than this.