• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Kathryn Bigelow's DETROIT Review Thread (95% Certified Fresh)

Cheebo

Banned
Now that Dark Tower looks to be a complete disaster to avoid at all costs its nice to have a wide release this weekend that looks to be fantastic.
Critics Consensus: Detroit delivers a gut-wrenching -- and essential -- dramatization of a tragic chapter from America's past that draws distressing parallels to the present.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/detroit_2017


A drama as powerful as it is timely.
Todd McCarthy - Hollywood Reporter
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/review/detroit-review-1023656

Dramatically relentless and emotionally shattering, it brings news from a turbulent past that casts a baleful light on America's troubled present.
Joe Morgenstern - Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/detroit-review-incendiary-inspired-indelible-1501181101

Director Bigelow and screenwriter Boal take the Detroit race riots of half a century ago and create a hardcore masterpiece that digs into our violent past to hold up a dark mirror to the systemic racism that still rages in the here and now.
Peter Travers - Rolling Stone
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/...-detroit-will-leave-you-moved-scarred-w493733


Trailer 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFeWsDpy9y0

Trailer 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv74LqiumXE

Trailer 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooXejy4uizo
 

zelas

Member
With names like John Boyega, Anthony Mackie, and John Krasinski I wonder why this isn't getting much run. Haven't heard of it until today. Just watched the trailer and it looks pretty good.
 

chadtwo

Member
Perhaps due to Detroit: Become Human, I ignorantly assumed this movie was some sort of sci-fi cyber-Detroit movie. Didn't realize it was a historical drama. I'm interested.
 
Some black reviewers I trust have... Had a very different take on the movie.

Black suffering for stuff we already know.

Still worried
 
After hearing the Double Toasted review on this yesterday, I'm going to have to give it a pass for now. From the way they described it, I would be pissed and sad for days after seeing it.
 
Link to reviews?
http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/detroit-2017 by Angelica Jade Bastien
Watching "Detroit," the latest film directed by Kathryn Bigelow and penned by Mark Boal, I hit a breaking point I didn’t realize I had. I was disturbed so deeply by what I witnessed that I left the theater in tears.

It wasn’t the relentless violence inflicted upon black bodies or the fiery devastation of the riots ripping apart Detroit but the emptiness behind these moments that got under my skin. Watching “Detroit” I realized that I’m not interested in white perceptions of black pain. White filmmakers, of course, have every right to make stories that highlight the real and imagined histories of racism and police brutality that pointedly affect Black America. There are, of course, a litany of films by white filmmakers about subject matter unique to the black experience that I find moving—“The Color Purple” comes to mind. But Steven Spielberg’s film was based on a novel by Alice Walker and produced by Quincy Jones. “Detroit” was directed, written, produced, shot, and edited by white creatives who do not understand the weight of the images they hone in on with an unflinching gaze.

“Detroit” is ultimately a confused film that has an ugliness reflected in its visual craft and narrative. Bigelow is adept at making the sharp crack of an officer’s gun against a black man’s face feel impactful but doesn’t understand the meaning of the emotional scars left behind or how they echo through American history. “Detroit” is a hollow spectacle, displaying rank racism and countless deaths that has nothing to say about race, the justice system, police brutality, or the city that gives it its title.​
...
While John Boyega has been top-billed for his performance as Melvin Dismukes, a security guard who stumbles into aiding the blatantly racist cops and armed forces that realize the civil rights violations happening but do nothing to stop it, he’s too passive a character to leave much of an impression. In standing by his position as an authority figure and helping these white cops, Melvin becomes complicit in their horror. Boyega is a charismatic actor, but he gives a flat performance, although it’s the script that’s more of a problem. Mark Boal skirts around the issue of Melvin’s complicity, leaving an interesting story on the table. The standout from the cast proves to be Algee Smith, who grants his character a soulfulness and yearning that grows more heartbreaking as the film continues, but even his performance is often undercut by directorial choices.

There are plenty of examples of racism in the film, but it's William Poulter’s performance as Philip Krauss, a cop who proves to be a ringleader to the horrors that occur at the Algiers Motel, that’s the most sickening. Krauss is quick to violence, virulently racist, and immensely cunning. He delights in beating the black men who realize he’s abusing his power but can do nothing to stop him even as dead bodies pile up. Bigelow doesn’t flinch from depicting Krauss’ horror, but she also doesn’t thoroughly indict him or the systems that allow men like him to survive.​
...
When I left the theater, I overheard a black filmgoer say repeatedly, “This is still happening. This is still happening.” I only looked at him briefly, but in his voice there was a weariness and disappointment I felt myself. Given how nothing has really changed in America for black folks, “Detroit” had the potential to be a valuable, even powerful, piece of art that could speak truth to power. But it lacks the authenticity necessary to become that. Bigelow and Boal don’t shy away from showing how loathsome Philip and his cohorts are. But they don’t go so far to indict them or grant enough context to their actions. There are also brief, disconcerting moments that present some white cops in a great light. Ultimately, I was left wondering who is this film really for? The filmmakers aren’t skilled enough to understand the particulars of blackness or bring the city of Detroit to life as another character. What is the value of depicting such nauseating violence if you have nothing to say about how that violence comes to pass or what it says about a country that has yet to reckon with the racism that continues to fester within its very soul?

“Detroit” is presented as a valuable portrait of a bloody, violent, and important moment of American history. The epilogue detailing what happened next for everyone involved over pictures of the real-life versions of the characters and story gestures at vital commentary about racism that the filmmakers never get a handle on. Bigelow, Boal, and their collaborators are unable to meaningfully parallel this event to the present-day happenings they mirror. Watching “Detroit,” I didn’t see a period drama, but a horror film. The horror of white filmmakers taking on black history and the violence perpetuated upon black bodies with an unwavering eye yet nothing to say.​
 

Khansolo1

Member
I had tickets for The premiere at downtown Detroit for the Fox theater. I couldn't go because I don't have a wheelchair van.
 

hiredhand

Member
Could one argue (base don her review) that it could be equivalent to torture porn? Where what's happening on screen is happening just because?
One could also argue that the whole review is one big ad hominem.

Basically the writer didn't like the docudrama approach used by Bigelow and Boal and would have wanted to see a more traditional drama about the subject. It's like criticising United 93 for not portraying the impact of 9/11 on America and then putting the blame for that on Greengrass because he is British.
 
I find the line in the review "There are also brief, disconcerting moments that present some white cops in a great light" pretty 'disconcerting'.

I know nothing about the story and haven't seen the film yet, but isn't this a weird thing to say in a review that's so heavy on race issues not being handled appropriately?
 

BlueTsunami

there is joy in sucking dick
I don't get what this review is trying to say either.

Is the condemnation of the violence not explicit enough?

Is the fact that the fucked up shit depicted as happened 50 years ago is still obviously happening today not enough? Should there be a side-by-side for the audiences benefit?

She cites the Color Purple as a good film about an African American experience but it was born from a black mind and presented by a white director. All he had to do was scribe the source. But that's a traditional film based on a novel.

As stated this a docudrama style that probably doesnt offer an overt opinion. You experience this crisis and it'll push you in either direction, I'm sure, based on how you feel about police brutality. Hopefully seeing this pushes those who are indifferent towards a country where people of color aren't killed in the streets by the ones who should be protecting them.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
She cites the Color Purple as a good film about an African American experience but it was born from a black mind and presented by a white director. All he had to do was scribe the source. But that's a traditional film based on a novel.

As stated this a docudrama style that probably doesnt offer an overt opinion. You experience this crisis and it'll push you in either direction, I'm sure, based on how you feel about police brutality. Hopefully seeing this pushes those who are indifferent towards a country where people of color aren't killed in the streets by the ones who should be protecting them.

Presenting Horrifying events as is should be enough to make people aware of our terrible history as a country and allow them to draw parallels into how little has changed over the last half century.

Offering too much commentary would probably make the film seem too preachy and would get in the way of the story. It's not like you'd sway racists with either approach, but only one seems to make the better film.
 

jtb

Banned
I need Wesley Morris' take first

Presenting Horrifying events as is should be enough to make people aware of our terrible history as a country and allow them to draw parallels into how little has changed over the last half century.

Offering too much commentary would probably make the film seem too preachy and would get in the way of the story. It's not like you'd sway racists with either approach, but only one seems to make the better film.

How is presenting explicit imagery on screen for the sake of explicit imagery anything other than pornography? If Bigelow has nothing to say about the subject of her film, then she shouldn't make the film.

All films have ideas. It's just about how much control the director exerts over them, and what shape they end up taking as they live a life of their own.

I haven't seen the film so I don't know where Detroit falls on this. I just find 'show awful things on screen' to be a pretty cowardly and weak reason for a film (or any piece of art) to exist.
 

zelas

Member
http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/detroit-2017 by Angelica Jade Bastien
Watching "Detroit," the latest film directed by Kathryn Bigelow and penned by Mark Boal, I hit a breaking point I didn’t realize I had. I was disturbed so deeply by what I witnessed that I left the theater in tears.

It wasn’t the relentless violence inflicted upon black bodies or the fiery devastation of the riots ripping apart Detroit but the emptiness behind these moments that got under my skin. Watching “Detroit” I realized that I’m not interested in white perceptions of black pain. White filmmakers, of course, have every right to make stories that highlight the real and imagined histories of racism and police brutality that pointedly affect Black America. There are, of course, a litany of films by white filmmakers about subject matter unique to the black experience that I find moving—“The Color Purple” comes to mind. But Steven Spielberg’s film was based on a novel by Alice Walker and produced by Quincy Jones. “Detroit” was directed, written, produced, shot, and edited by white creatives who do not understand the weight of the images they hone in on with an unflinching gaze.

“Detroit” is ultimately a confused film that has an ugliness reflected in its visual craft and narrative. Bigelow is adept at making the sharp crack of an officer’s gun against a black man’s face feel impactful but doesn’t understand the meaning of the emotional scars left behind or how they echo through American history. “Detroit” is a hollow spectacle, displaying rank racism and countless deaths that has nothing to say about race, the justice system, police brutality, or the city that gives it its title.​
...
While John Boyega has been top-billed for his performance as Melvin Dismukes, a security guard who stumbles into aiding the blatantly racist cops and armed forces that realize the civil rights violations happening but do nothing to stop it, he’s too passive a character to leave much of an impression. In standing by his position as an authority figure and helping these white cops, Melvin becomes complicit in their horror. Boyega is a charismatic actor, but he gives a flat performance, although it’s the script that’s more of a problem. Mark Boal skirts around the issue of Melvin’s complicity, leaving an interesting story on the table. The standout from the cast proves to be Algee Smith, who grants his character a soulfulness and yearning that grows more heartbreaking as the film continues, but even his performance is often undercut by directorial choices.

There are plenty of examples of racism in the film, but it's William Poulter’s performance as Philip Krauss, a cop who proves to be a ringleader to the horrors that occur at the Algiers Motel, that’s the most sickening. Krauss is quick to violence, virulently racist, and immensely cunning. He delights in beating the black men who realize he’s abusing his power but can do nothing to stop him even as dead bodies pile up. Bigelow doesn’t flinch from depicting Krauss’ horror, but she also doesn’t thoroughly indict him or the systems that allow men like him to survive.​
...
When I left the theater, I overheard a black filmgoer say repeatedly, “This is still happening. This is still happening.” I only looked at him briefly, but in his voice there was a weariness and disappointment I felt myself. Given how nothing has really changed in America for black folks, “Detroit” had the potential to be a valuable, even powerful, piece of art that could speak truth to power. But it lacks the authenticity necessary to become that. Bigelow and Boal don’t shy away from showing how loathsome Philip and his cohorts are. But they don’t go so far to indict them or grant enough context to their actions. There are also brief, disconcerting moments that present some white cops in a great light. Ultimately, I was left wondering who is this film really for? The filmmakers aren’t skilled enough to understand the particulars of blackness or bring the city of Detroit to life as another character. What is the value of depicting such nauseating violence if you have nothing to say about how that violence comes to pass or what it says about a country that has yet to reckon with the racism that continues to fester within its very soul?

“Detroit” is presented as a valuable portrait of a bloody, violent, and important moment of American history. The epilogue detailing what happened next for everyone involved over pictures of the real-life versions of the characters and story gestures at vital commentary about racism that the filmmakers never get a handle on. Bigelow, Boal, and their collaborators are unable to meaningfully parallel this event to the present-day happenings they mirror. Watching “Detroit,” I didn’t see a period drama, but a horror film. The horror of white filmmakers taking on black history and the violence perpetuated upon black bodies with an unwavering eye yet nothing to say.​

Thanks. I get where she's coming from. I still think at a minimum there is some benefit in helping to make people aware of past events that are repeating themselves today. But then I guess at this point in our globally connected society, who but bigots aren't well aware that police are capable of violence like this. And I'm sure they aren't interested in this portrayal and will merely brush aside the events in this film while claiming racist actors like that don't exist in modern times.
 

daxy

Member
Could one argue (base don her review) that it could be equivalent to torture porn? Where what's happening on screen is happening just because?

I believe her main beef with it is that the top-level creative talent behind the movie are white and thus inherently unable to produce and/or translate a story that is fully evocative, at an emotional and experiential level, of the suffering of black Americans. This has given their output an air of 'hollowness'.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I wouldn't discard a film purely for that reason unless it truly is visible in the work itself. Plenty of great movies, books, and other forms of art touch upon subjects outside of the author's realm of personal experience and do so well. Would be unfortunate if this movie indeed has issues evoking a more nuanced story behind its images of pain.
 

blakep267

Member
I don't get what this review is trying to say either.

Is the condemnation of the violence not explicit enough?

Is the fact that the fucked up shit depicted as happened 50 years ago is still obviously happening today not enough? Should there be a side-by-side for the audiences benefit?
But what does it leave you with in the end? I kinda felt the same way about 12 years a slave. It came across as hollow on the end. Yes I know slavery was awful and I just sat through 2 hours of solomons torture. But what is this film actually saying. Or is it not trying to say anything at all and just a period piece set in a dark time
 

jmizzal

Member
Nice reviews

Lol IGN gave it a 6.5 because too much focus on police brutality, not based on the quality of the film, it wasnt what they wanted so score it lower
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
But what does it leave you with in the end? I kinda felt the same way about 12 years a slave. It came across as hollow on the end. Yes I know slavery was awful and I just sat through 2 hours of solomons torture. But what is this film actually saying. Or is it not trying to say anything at all and just a period piece set in a dark time

The film was the reaction it caused in audiences.

It was depressing and sometimes horrifying for me and further cemented how inhuman man can be to man for such arbitrary reasons. It's a history lesson for some and a reaffirming moment for others of how terrible racism was and still kind of is in America. It's a depiction of a largely forgotten historical account in a level of detail that can be seen as respectful to the pain, suffering, and ultimate relief of the subject.

I feel the concept of chiding films because they didn't "say" something is just a poor attempt to rationalize why you don't like a film. Many many films don't have original concepts and explicit messages hand-delivered from the director. Some films let present the story or events in interesting ways and let the audience come up with the takeaway.
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
I'm not interested in 'terrible images of a bad time for black America'. Boyega could get me in the seat but if he's an observer, I'm not interested. Will wait for more reviews. I'm glad he's getting attention.
 

Ninjimbo

Member
I was going to watch this regardless of reviews, but it's nice to see some good ones. Imma need to read Armond's take on this.
 
I don't get what this review is trying to say either.

Is the condemnation of the violence not explicit enough?

Is the fact that the fucked up shit depicted as happened 50 years ago is still obviously happening today not enough? Should there be a side-by-side for the audiences benefit?
The main point, as I understand it, is who is a film like this for? That is, who actually is both interested and actually wants to watch something like this and why, for what purpose exactly? Black America doesn't need to be told about stuff like this. They already know, and still too often experience shit just like it every day. And White America either ain't interested at all, or if they are it's only to treat it like a historical piece, something terrible that happened in the past but that we have since moved beyond. And white Americans who are "woke" and both understand the history and know that it is still going on find themselves in a similar (though nowhere near the same) position as Black America--whats the point? What's the purpose of just watching black bodies brutalized on screen, just showing them stuff they already know about if it doesn't have any message to tell beyond just saying that it happened? What do you actually get out of that?

That's what I think the review is getting at--that no particular audience is better off or really gets anything out of seeing it that they wouldn't have already had before they walked in the door. It doesn't actually leave them with anything they didn't already have, aside from just crushing sadness and depression and anger at seeing black bodies brutalized on the big screen in a way they already knew they were and know continues to happen. There's no takeaway that they didn't already have, nor that does it get any discussions going that weren't happening/going to happen anyway because the film doesn't make an effort to invite or start them.

Without any large takeaway, which according to the review the film mostly lacks, it's just depicting brutality for the sake of brutality, and no possible audience actually getting something out of the ordeal unless that itself is some type or reward or enjoyment to the viewer. And if that's true, then yeah, I can totally get not being a fan because I would likely have similar thoughts, especially since there are so many other films that do the same thing at this point anyway (just showing the numerous tragedies that have been inflicted on black bodies over this nation's history, but just leaving at that and not using it to say much of anything or even how that continues to happen and be held up by pretty much every institution of our society, much less actually try to take an optimistic note about the way things are (far too slowly, but nonetheless are) improving and efforts to ensure that that continues.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Some black reviewers I trust have... Had a very different take on the movie.

Black suffering for stuff we already know.

Still worried

I just got back from it and the movie has me conflicted. Well, not really. It made me angry.

And part of that anger is hard to explain, hence the conflict.

It's a well crafted and acted movie blah blah from a technical perspective the movie is amazing. Good? Cool.

The movie repeatedly giving us the white gaze of black trauma is one of my problems with this. The movie starts off by depicting the start of the 1967 detroit riots and then immediately jumps into focusing on property damage and looting during the riots. Close ups, dialog, extended steady cam sequences, the whole works. However, when the movie is depicting the police response to these riots, that footage is much more terse. Police are shown severely beating people in passing. Never more than a few seconds at a time.

Maybe it was because this movie was preceded by a trailer for the remake of the kill-a-negro franchise Death Wish, but all of this bullshit stood out to me.

Police are shown faux-compassionately saying that black people are responsible for the destruction of their community before callously murdering a black man.

Then we eventually get to the extended scenes of black trauma and the movie is unflinching in its depiction. However, each extended scene of black trauma is end-capped with a white person saying how horrible it is. There's a literal line in the movie that sounds like it was ADR'd in where a white cop exclaims something to the effect of "How could anyone even do this to another person, what type of monster would do this" as if to remind us that not all white people are bad. White girls who were assaulted in the same incident also remind us that this type of violence is terrible. And the violence? No matter how explicit and unflinching the movie is, the movie even holds back there as it doesn't even mention the sexual assaults that happened in that real life incident. I guess that would demonize the officers too much.

I don't need the white people in the movie to remind me how horrible what I just witnessed was. The impression I get is that those lines were put in there to remind the audience of how they should feel, should they not be able to emphasize with the tortured or the slain.

I like the occasional unsentimental approach regarding painful subjects like with Changeling. It's part of the reason why I think Clint Eastwood was such a great director. The movie, thankfully, doesn't end when the incident does and I think that the aftermath was portrayed fairly but the first 2/3rds of that movie it felt like the balance was off.


I dunno. I'm rambling and I'm still angry.
 

Kin5290

Member
From that article,
the police chief implies that the sexual assault was committed against the white women. It possibly might have been committed against the black men as well, since the police chief's words are a little ambiguous.

It's a little questionable that you would have a problem violence being shown conducted against young white women alongside the black men. Those women existed in real life. They were slandered as whores and prostitutes for daring to fraternize with black men, and it has been suggested (and is entirely possible) that racist cops being so infuriated at the idea of these young white women possibly sleeping with black men was a contributing factor to the ferocity of that violence.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
From that article,
the police chief implies that the sexual assault was committed against the white women. It possibly might have been committed against the black men as well, since the police chief's words are a little ambiguous.

It's a little questionable that you would have a problem violence being shown conducted against young white women alongside the black men. Those women existed in real life. They were slandered as whores and prostitutes for daring to fraternize with black men, and it has been suggested (and is entirely possible) that racist cops being so infuriated at the idea of these young white women possibly sleeping with black men was a contributing factor to the ferocity of that violence.
I'm not saying I wanted to see that. Far from it. But the movie shied away from that without even mentioning that it happened. It didn't spare us from the violence done to black bodies, however. That was all shown without needing to be implied or omitted.
Shoutout to my boy Eustace Scrub. He's popping up in all kinds of movies lately.

I had to google the name and NOPE. Fuck that dude for life. He is permanently on my shitlist.

He's too good of an actor for how horrible his character is.
 
I'm not saying I wanted to see that. Far from it. But the movie shied away from that without even mentioning that it happened. It didn't spare us from the violence done to black bodies, however. That was all shown without needing to be implied or omitted.


I had to google the name and NOPE. Fuck that dude for life. He is permanently on my shitlist.

He's too good of an actor for how horrible his character is.
He plays a racist cop in the movie right? I've heard he did a damn good job. He was hilarious in We're the Millers, and not bad at all in Narnia. Dude's got surprising range haha.
 
Top Bottom