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[Skyzard]

I worry he's thinking more along the lines of emotional devastation from set pieces as opposed to actually making a more realistic game engine.

Fair enough people don't want to get too freaked out but that way isn't as cool or as impressive. Casuals aren't getting next-gen products for a long time.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

I think ND with the TLOU did a pretty good job at this.

This.

Ken Levine could learn a thing or two from ND.

 

[NullPointer]

Not necessarily. They should aim to be compelling and maybe taking away from stabbing/shooting by adding other options of some kind will hurt that.

EDIT: Combat games are always being made for a pretty good reason. They have work and continue to work, they have depth and can be improved upon. Foregoing combat or some highly established "verb" (ugh, the way people say this shit), you ought to replace it with something with similar complexity and depth. That is, some form of interactivity that is interesting as something more than a vehicle for non-interactive media.

Well even if we limit the game to just stabbing and shooting, sometimes I don't need to kill everybody I come in contact with. How about a little maiming? Some stunning? Some disabling? Maybe a little disarming? Maybe some capturing? How about AI that realizes that I just vaporized half of their squad and decides its time to get the fuck out of there?

 

[flabberghastly]

The Gamespot article is heavily abridged compared to the original piece in Boston Magazine (by the way, Poetic.Injustice, it should be Boston Magazine via Gamespot, not the other way around as you have it). The original article goes into some of the criticisms of the game for its violence, quoting articles by Chris Plante, Kirk Hamilton, and Leigh Alexander. Josh Allen, the original's author, does, however, give far too much credit to the BioShock series, claiming, for example, that the first BioShock "was one of the first games to offer the player a moral choice—a forking path between good and evil" and that BioShock Infinite inspired critics to ask "a hitherto-unasked question: Why should games like Infinite include violence at all?" (emphasis mine)

Neither article provides a satisfactory answer by Levine to this question. The point still remains: sure, games shouldn't necessarily avoid depicting the 'gory reality of violence', but one doesn't need to revel in it, to make it the central mechanic of their game by which their audience is supposed to have "fun" (interesting note: the Boston Magazine piece ends with the line, "Is it art? Who knows, but it’s damn good fun.") in order to keep from producing a benign, acceptable version of violence. In fact, by trivializing it, they make the 'gory reality of violence' all that much more easy to accept. The shock is gone, and all that's left are countless, meticulously detailed virtual corpses.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

TLoU references are spot on. Never seen it done better...

Still amazed months later that on my first playthrough i never once did the knock someone off balance and then take out a weapon and have it auto aim trick that was the showpiece of the first gameplay reveal. With dude begging not to get 12.gauged in the face.

First time i actually did do it in the game? Whooo... shivers.

 

[Skyzard]

@flabberghastly, What a let down - I was thinking something about more games, thanks for the info though.


Body (damage) simulators for next-gen first person shooters. Media outcry would sell that game by itself. We have rating boards already, they can stafoo. MS can grease the way.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Having said that, I was still rather impressed with how visceral the game was, still. Even The Last of Us didn't feel as visceral. In fact, in comparison, TLOU failed miserably to match Infinite.

Really? Are you comparing what here, exactly? Melee attacks? NPC reactions when shot? Cutscenes depicting violence against humans? I am lost. Can you please provide a few examples of where you think TLOU "failed miserably to match Infinite" in depicting the gory reality of violence?

 

[Riposte]

Well even if we limit the game to just stabbing and shooting, sometimes I don't need to kill everybody I come in contact with. How about a little maiming? Some stunning? Some disabling? Maybe a little disarming? Maybe some capturing? How about AI that realizes that I just vaporized half of their squad and decides its time to get the fuck out of there?

I could see those all being interesting, though how they fit into the overall design is more important than any sort of novelty that comes with it.

There are quite a few games that make the distinct between lethal and non-lethal mostly meaningless outside some unbalanced benefits (and a complete lack of consequences) for non-lethal option. Specifically something like Human Revolution does a very poor job at this and would be better without, say, non-lethal takedowns.

 

[John Kowalski]

Not necessarily. They should aim to be compelling and maybe taking away from stabbing/shooting by adding other options of some kind will hurt that.

EDIT: Combat games are always being made for a pretty good reason. They have work and continue to work, they have depth and can be improved upon. Foregoing combat or some highly established "verb" (ugh, the way people say this shit), you ought to replace it with something with similar complexity and depth. That is, some form of interactivity that is interesting as something more than a vehicle for non-interactive media.

This is silly, combat doesn't need to be necessarily designed to be lethal. Stealth games have allowed for kill runs for decades and they are no less satisfying because of it.

 

[Pixels]

Games shouldn't have to rely on violence as their primary game mechanic, either.

^^^^

 

[Remachinate]

An odd comment coming from a designer who has likened shooting segments in games to songs in musicals. Which is it Ken? Is video game violence supposed to be grounded in reality or an exaggerated conceit?

 

[Riposte]

This is silly, combat doesn't need to be necessarily designed to be lethal. Stealth games have allowed for kill runs for decades and they are no less satisfying because of it.

Did I say it does?

 

[Kodaman]

And both are fine in fiction. To suggest otherwise is to suggest there's some harm in reveling in fictional violence. Nobody has any proof of that, which just means they're making moral judgements about what offends them. Beyond individual, subjective concerns of politeness, nobody needs to care about that when creating art.

Oh I agree with you.

Is just that he's trying to justify Infinite's violence, which feels overdone imo.
There's gore that feels in place in plenty of other games.

 

[John Kowalski]

Did I say it does?

Did it doesn't?

What i mean is, games can have combat mechanics but still employ them in a manner that does not make combat its main method of rewarding the player.

 

[FunkyPajamas]

Did it doesn't?

Yes, it did doesn't. Do you?

 

[toastyToast]

Are there any games that realistically depict violence and the effect it has on people?

I'm curious

 

[Alvarez]

No game (that I know of) has ever done gore/real violence correctly, Last of Us included.

The human body is not a bag of blood. There are organs, tissues, fat, and bone in there--and no video game has attempted to render these correctly. At most we get a 2-D texture of someone's insides.

Video games also have psychology and physiology wrong. Characters presumably don't urinate, defecate, starve, or succumb to cowardice. The cruel reality of survival instinct never kicks in.

No idea who Ken Levine is, but he's right. But games shouldn't be singled out; books, movies, and more often choose to ignore reality as well.

 

[Mihos]

Yeah.. And all driving games should be desert bus

 

[John Kowalski]

Yes, it did doesn't. Do you?

All Hail King Neptune And His Waterbreathers.

 

[Slappers Only]

Cities don't float. Take that both ways.

 

[Riposte]

What i mean is, games can have combat mechanics but still employ them in a manner that does not make combat its main method of rewarding the player.

It can, but that can also make the game worse. E.g. The other set of mechanics (including encounter design) being plainly inferior/exploitable, interfere with each other awkwardly, spreading the game too thin, etc.

 

[LaserHawk]

I worry he's thinking more along the lines of emotional devastation from set pieces as opposed to actually making a more realistic game engine.

That's kind of what I'm getting, too.

I mean, video games are already reveling in the goriest details they can (sometimes it's even a bullet point on the package). But how about if games showed you the wife and children of the guy you just killed? Maybe the years of suffering and surgery of the person you hit with a car. I'm sure the answer to that question is that such a game would be incredibly unpopular, but it's kind of sad that not many games are willing to take human life seriously.

 

[SeanR1221]

Bioshock gore felt weird.

The Last of Us did it right.

 

[Portugeezer]

I agree, but we shouldn't glorify it like in those stupid sniper games which do close ups of skulls being shattered in slow motion... really? Why do they love it so much?

 

[John Kowalski]

It can, but that can also make the game worse. E.g. The other set of mechanics (including encounter design) being plainly inferior/exploitable, interfere with each other awkwardly, spreading the game too thin, etc.

But that's a matter of skill, not of inherent design limitations. In general, if a game has a strong sense of purpose, then all elements can have a defined expected function which the developer can work out, regardless of how those mechanics compare to contemporary established rules. But that's in function of their skill.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Bioshock gore felt weird.

The Last of Us did it right.

I think the first instance of violence/gore in Infinite was spot on. It was shocking and hit you hard. But there was just so much of it afterwards with no change of pace that it couldn't keep that up. TLoU had a lot of action as well, but I think it still managed to to shock you even late in the game with how they handled it.

 

[Skyzard]

That's kind of what I'm getting, too.

I mean, video games are already reveling in the goriest details they can (sometimes it's even a bullet point on the package). But how about if games showed you the wife and children of the guy you just killed? Maybe the years of suffering and surgery of the person you hit with a car. I'm sure the answer to that question is that such a game would be incredibly unpopular, but it's kind of sad that not many games are willing to take human life seriously.

As you said - it'd be unpopular and most people pick up entertainment for fun to be fair. Not for (imo) torture (although I can understand the appeal of a more realistic world to believe what's being told). But showing the fragility of the human body through more realism like Alvarez describes would be really interesting. I guess it doesn't have to be only for FPS games and it would add a lot to immersion but it'd be a whole lot of work for sure.

 

[Currygan]

agreed, Infinite depicted violence in a realistic way, expecially when directed to gameplay

 

[udivision]

Cities don't float. Take that both ways.

The depressing reality of gravity.

 

[Jaxter09]

I was completely absorbed by Infinites opening, it was so immersive and pretty. Then you slam some guys face into a handheld medieval torture device and rip it out the pulpy remains of his head; while nameless baton-wielding policemen line up in front of you awaiting their turn.

I was like oh.....
I don't really get the point. Is it supposed to be shocking? All it did was make the intro seem like a superficial catalyst for juxtaposition against the violence, like the first 10 minutes of a horror movie with the happy family acting like they aren't going to be chopped into little pieces.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Bioshock gore felt weird.

The Last of Us did it right.

Bioshock did well with the 'A man chooses, a slave obeys' moment in depicting the psychological effects of violence. I don't know if a similar revelation exists in Infinite.

 

[RurouniZel]

Are there any games that realistically depict violence and the effect it has on people?

I'm curious

Bushido Blade.

Ahead of it's time.

Spoiler

;P

 

[TetraGenesis]

"... Or how people instantly turn into cartoony screaming skeletons when set on fire, like in Bioshock Infinite."

First post.


I was gonna come I with some snarky comment about Infinite's cartoonishly excessive gore. Nothing "reality" there.

Edit: But yes, TLOU nailed this.

 

[NullPointer]

Cities don't float. Take that both ways.

What about Vegan cities?

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I don't see how anything about TLoU's violence was just outstandingly done well. Not saying Bioshock's does either.

 

[Neiteio]

Eh, depends on the game. One of the reasons I love Left 4 Dead so much fun is the zombies just punch you when they swarm you, which looks hilarious and keeps the game from ever becoming unpleasant. There are games where I appreciate gore effects (and L4D has those too, albeit highly stylized and limited to the zombies), but not every game needs them.

On another note, TLOU is one of the few games where the violence felt completely and 100% appropriate. This is because the context, the pacing, the mood all made it feel real rather than gratuitous.

 

[RoboPlato]

I 100% agree. The interactive nature of games allow them to make real statements on violence because the player is actually performing them. It's a major part of the reason that TLoU hit me so hard. The sheer brutality and ugliness of the combat wasn't done for satisfaction, it was to illustrate what kind of a place the world had become and what kind of people lived in it.

 

[Threi]

so basically we can hope to see games where you shoot a guy, and then spend the rest of your life trying to avoid police that are stronger, faster, smarter, have much more ammo and numbers than you, and if they catch you its instant game over (unless you get a perfect on the "get a lawyer" minigame)?

 

[TetraGenesis]

Having said that, I was still rather impressed with how visceral the game was, still. Even The Last of Us didn't feel as visceral. In fact, in comparison, TLOU failed miserably to match Infinite.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Video games are limited in their portrayal of violence because you're an active participant in events. We are never going to have a war game that reaches the heights of Full Metal Jacket, Platoon or Apocalypse Now because our active participation in events prevents us from truly feeling bad.

 

[The Albatross]

Gonna challenge Ken on this.

..

Why not?

 

[Sarcastico]

Damn right. Now if he could just convince Nintendo that all those crushed goombas don't look realistic.

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

*Sigh*

I thought TLOU was great; my third favorite game of the generation. But I'm genuinely being honest, and my own genuine feeling towards TLOU and violence was not as effective as Infinite was. If you want me to lie, I will. I'll just echo the praise that everyone else wants to give TLOU, even though that game lost most of its luster throughout its first play through. There was just no reaction from me personally.

Just because it's a popular opinion doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I refuse to abide by your opinion by subverting my own. Making snarky comments and posting rude GIF's like what you did is not going to help your cause. If you want to appeal to me, do so without emotionally manipulative attempts at pathos to support your cause. If you really want to drop it, accept that other people will react differently to certain things and call it a day. I respect your opinion, can you do the same?

 

[Night_Trekker]

Oh I agree with you.

Is just that he's trying to justify Infinite's violence, which feels overdone imo.
There's gore that feels in place in plenty of other games.

Gotcha. I agree with your last sentence. (Haven't played BI so I can't comment on the rest. Probably won't, either. I love System Shock 2, but nothing Bioshock-related has ever interested me at all.)

 

[Drona]

Video games are limited in their portrayal of violence because you're an active participant in events. We are never going to have a war game that reaches the heights of Full Metal Jacket, Platoon or Apocalypse Now because our active participation in events prevents us from truly feeling bad.

So what the hell was SOLDIER OF MOTHER FUCKING FORTUNE 2? thou to be honest, at times it felt like it was too much.

should have set a standard in gore for FPS games, yet nobody followed. Infinite is baby stuff compared to SOF series.

Honorable Mentions

TUrok 2.

 

[Mononoke]

Yeah, except violence can be handled a lot better than Levine did with Infinite. The violence in Infinite felt completely needless and you become numb to the weight of it, as it became cartoony. The last of us felt a lot more real. You killed because you had to. It wasn't pretty, and it wasn't glamorous. But you did it to survive.

I have no problem with cartoony violence, but lol Infinite did it pretty poorly.

 

[shem935]

The gore and violence in the last of us made me feel like utter crap. I just felt dirty and disgusting for killing this runner that was sitting in a corner sobbing. It was harrowing and I was glad to

Spoiler

stare at the giraffes for 30 mins.

When I played infinite it felt like call of duty just with more and much more violent executions.

 

[Bel Marduk]

I couldn't agree more.

The news should also show much more violence and gore.

 

[Krev]

...nor should they indulge in it.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Not necessarily. They should aim to be compelling and maybe taking away from stabbing/shooting by adding other options of some kind will hurt that.

EDIT: Combat games are always being made for a pretty good reason. They have work and continue to work, they have depth and can be improved upon. Foregoing combat or some highly established "verb" (ugh, the way people say this shit), you ought to replace it with something with similar complexity and depth. That is, some form of interactivity that is interesting as something more than a vehicle for non-interactive media.

No way man, Uncharted would obviously be way better if it was JUST automatic platforming and Bioshock Infinite would be way better if they took out all the combat and you just explored the world, eating out of file cabinets.