I agree that a developer should be able to show realistic violence (just like they should be able to show full nudity and sex, for that matter) in a game that asks for it. However, I also feel that there are too many games centered around violence right now. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy many of these games. But I can't help but feel that there are so many topics/concepts/contents not covered in games. Ones that have got nothing to do with shooting or hitting things. So more realistic violence? Sure. But more violence in general? Not really.
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Ken Levine: Games shouldn't hide the gory reality of violence
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
NullPointer
Member
Yeah, and while it doesn't make that much of a difference mechanically I do appreciate that you have non-lethal and ghost options in Splinter Cell Blacklist. If a game provides non-lethal options I'll use them.
Cameron122
Member
I await decadent violence in Freedom Force 3: 90s comics edition
Please make Freedom Force 3, Kevin Levine ;~;
Please make Freedom Force 3, Kevin Levine ;~;
Eh, not quite. The way the cannibals were characterized was more like a gang getting revenge or a group hunting a dangerous animal. Plus they painted them as cannibals to really get the fact through that the enemies are worse than you.
It's not laziness, it's a design decision. They're trying to avoid making the violence seem gratuitous, not because of their inability to show gore.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
I want SWAT 5 first.
I was going to disagree with him until I read the update: Levine has since clarified his original quotes, saying art as a whole should show things as they are, but not every piece has the responsibility to do so.
It's not even my conversation, but I like what you're saying here.
It's not even my conversation, but I like what you're saying here.
/thread
ZealousMonkey
Banned
It is pretty obvious, noting the recent KZ, that devs are straying somewhat away from making gore and blood ultra realistic. I wonder when the issue will be fully addressed because I see it being a major issue when we are killing photorealistic people, possibly in VR sets, 5-10 years from now.
rosaceadude2112
Member
Like this?
wow, this game looks nuts
Nah. Irrational took years to make that game. They had a crazy idea for executions. You gotta get it out there. No point saving it for later.
Glorious!!
I guess after 4 years they found the perfect exploding head sound. Can't let that one go
So i finally finished TLOU and i must say that it handles violence in the best way .
Its violent. bloody and raw .
For example . when you pull the trigger of the shotgun aimed at some poor saps head .yes the end result is not going to be a pleasant sight .The same if you smash somebody's head against the nearest hard surface but despite all that it never goes over the top with it .
Some devs have this mindset that Violence means having your enemies and you bleed ridiculous amount of blood when they are hit .
In other cases devs go so far in the blood spraying that instead of horrifying it becomes almost silly and cartoon like (IE . Dead space ) .
Violence could be nasty without all the gore depending on how it is presented
.
I found the scene in Heavy rain in which you
far more horrifying to watch then say someone getting riddled with a gajillion bullets till only a stain on the wall remains .
Its violent. bloody and raw .
For example . when you pull the trigger of the shotgun aimed at some poor saps head .yes the end result is not going to be a pleasant sight .The same if you smash somebody's head against the nearest hard surface but despite all that it never goes over the top with it .
Some devs have this mindset that Violence means having your enemies and you bleed ridiculous amount of blood when they are hit .
In other cases devs go so far in the blood spraying that instead of horrifying it becomes almost silly and cartoon like (IE . Dead space ) .
Violence could be nasty without all the gore depending on how it is presented
.
I found the scene in Heavy rain in which you
Cut your own finger off with a tool of your choosing
I think games where killing is kept to a minimum should do this. Would make each death seem significant.
I am kinda getting tired of suspending my disbelief at a regular old character in everyday clothing mowing down hundreds of enemies throughout the game. Just got done with Tomb Raider where she went from crying from her first kill to murdering an entire island of people.
I am kinda getting tired of suspending my disbelief at a regular old character in everyday clothing mowing down hundreds of enemies throughout the game. Just got done with Tomb Raider where she went from crying from her first kill to murdering an entire island of people.
noonespecial
Member
Perhaps violence would be more respected if the violence applied to *you* the main character had more impact. Part of the problem with mowing down hordes of stupid AI enemies (which don't act very "human" like anyway) is that most of the time when you take damage there are no realistic consequences to either side's actions. Instead of waves of idiot nameless "bad guys" rushing your position perhaps it would be more interesting and believable if their AI routines reacted to the violence? What if they acted more like individuals rather than robots?
That could itself be used as a mechanism to show the player that they are bad people (if that is the intent) such as:
-Having a group of "bad guys" start seeking cover, meanwhile yelling that they're going to kill you because you've killed so many of their pals.
-Some of them will yell out that this isn't worth it and the main character will simply kill them, and they have families, and they don't want to die.
-When you shoot someone (but they aren't dead) you hear them screaming and crying for their mothers and for help and yelling things like "I can't feel my legs!" or "It hurts! Make the pain stop!". They plead with their friends to help them and ask if they will be okay, and their nearby friends try to provide emergency medical help and to reassure them.
-After a few of them are killed by you then maybe someone starts screaming "I don't want to die! Let's leave this asshole alone - it's not worth it!" and starts crying at the destruction. Some actually leave.
-One of them just loses it, and with sobs in their voice, they rush the player yelling stuff like "You killed everyone I know. I'm going to kill you, you bastard!!!" while they would have tears streaming from their eyes (if they could be rendered). This one crazy person then stands up and runs straight at the player.
Another aspect that is silly in most games where the violence is supposed to be a bit more believable is that the main character sure can handle damage well. Get shot in the back where a normal human would be paralyzed for the rest of their life? No worries - you will still be able to run around like normal and either wait a few seconds or eat some magic healing rations to remove all traces of the damage including the scar tissue. Maybe in a more "realistic" game if you get shot in the leg (and if it doesn't kill you from bleeding out) maybe your character is slowed down with a limp for the rest of the game. Why does the main character always get away with no lasting damage?
The impact of violence is not really the gore - it is the death, dismemberment, misery and tragedy resulting from its outcome which the vast majority of games may only reveal a very small aspect of. Most games completely gloss over these results (as well they probably should).
Obviously I am talking about this in terms of games where the act of violence is supposed to have an emotional impact to the player, so I am not talking about all games that use violence - especially those that use violence in an overly cartoony or even comical way. Also, this applies obviously to games where the designer *wants* to make an attempt in portraying this type of emotion. Since almost every game I've played has such unrealistic violence anyway, this seems to be a pretty silly statement for a major video game designer to be making and like I said the impact from violence is really not from the gore anyway.
Probably the games with the most "realistic" violence in it I have played is SWAT3 and SWAT4 by the way. It captures the deadliness, horror, chaos, confusion, and noise about as well I could imagine, all without going over the top with gore mostly because a lot of gore in video games are pretty unrealistic and over the top anyway - heads and body parts don't "explode" nearly that much in real life when hit by a bullet to the best of my knowledge. Lots of blood though but not fountains as in some games.
I'm hoping someone makes a shooter with true realistic difficulty. It'd be the Dark Souls of shooters. You'd play as some special forces guy, just so the skills make sense.
Perhaps you are caught behind enemy lines, you need to make it to some kind of friendly territory. When you encounter enemies you should take them out as strategically and stealthily as possible. Sometimes you would need to wait for a while to memorize patterns or wait for the right opportunity. The reason for being this extra careful?
Realistic damage when shot. If you get shot in the leg you can do some battlefield first aid, but like you mentioned, you would be slower until it healed better. Get hit in the shoulder or something? Then maybe your aim is off because of the pain.
You would kill quite a few people to beat the game, but it wouldn't be anything out of the realm of similar movies.
jacksepticeye
Member
Yep this. The violence would be over the top in some other games but it fit that world very well
Max Payne 3 did a good job showing gory detail but it sort of glorified it more than making it gritty or feel realistic
RobFox64tm
Member
Is he suggesting that games are holding back? Because if that's the case, this man should be institutionalized right away.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Yeah and that's why Spec Ops The Line is alone in it's corner right
Midnight Bliss
Member
Really dark psychological subjects seem to be unrelated to what he's talking about sadly. The kind of things which make you feel depressed or sick for days at a time and want to put the game down. Not so much actual violence but the true horror contained within the nature of humanity.
noonespecial
Member
That's a good idea for a game actually. My main concern is that it would not be particularly enjoyable, which goes against the very purpose of most video games (in the minds of most people). Unlike most other media (such as films or novels) video games are expected to be "fun" to play - especially at $60 MSRP. That is the biggest difficulty in my opinion of video game developers trying to provide certain messages in video games that other media would not typically encounter the same difficulty in achieving.
It would all come down to the execution though (bad choice of word - I meant "implementation") and such a game's sense of "fun" would have to come from other sources other than just mindless violence. So the planning, sneaking around, scouting, exploring, and survival aspects would be the source of most of that game's fun. The violence would by necessity tend to be rare, brief, and deadly but probably very thrilling and be something to avoid where possible. If the game was done right and wasn't turned into a linear corridor shooter (with perhaps not a single scripted event) then perhaps all or most of combat could even be avoided - similar to how some stealth games operate. The game could even have AI helpers who themselves could get killed off or suffer permanent damage and not just be scripted to just remain alive for a predetermined amount of time and if done right it could add additional emotional weight to the player if such an AI ally got seriously injured or died. The AI would need to be very believable though and not just be a typical AI ally bot that spouts out stupid one-liners while engaging waves of enemies.
Make the game somewhat similar to a "rogue-like" where there are no retries and the only option to restart your game, perhaps with certain randomized elements, and you would have a much more "realistic" shooter. I just don't see such a game getting funded by the current "AAA" industry though. This type of game would probably be considered to be "boring", and not have enough "action" and wouldn't have any set pieces. I'd play it though...
7/10
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