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[artist]

It's just processor intensive. If they gimp the game enough they could probably implement it somehow. Let the Kinect hog all the CPU resources. :lol

Well didnt Microsoft claim that Kinect has custom designed silicon in it? (dedicated ASIC)

 

[Cipherr]

There might have been an extra-bit of info posted afterwards that clarifies things. But nothing in the original article mentioned Kinect specifically having two players max in a game.

The only mention about the processing limit was this: "and the computer will see all of them and can even recognize them as human shapes. But it can only run calculations on two people at a time, just because the processing power required to track all of the body's locations and movements is so great."

In the first place, it does not specify what "the computer" is. We know that with Kinect specifically (which may or may not apply to 'raw tech' the company is referring to), there have been some modifications since its announcement. Such as the removal of the on-board processor(s) and relying more on the 360's own processing power. Microsoft has stated before the hardware could change before it is shipped. So that could very well alter things.

Beyond that, it is unclear how much of the software side of things factors into this. Since Natal was first revealed, Microsoft (and affiliates) have gone on about how the amazing part of tech is the software aspect such as here or here. Of course, it could be the limit is on a lower level than that.

No time frame was given on the two-player processing limit either. Some games might be able to allow four-players depending on the type of game and how information is stored.

Ultimately, I don't think there is any definite statement about Kinect in that article. At the same time, there hasn't been any game shown so far with more than two people playing simultaneously. Though the Kinect Adventure descriptions I've read varies between two and four player support (which may or may not be simultaneous play). I would wait till Microsoft actually comments on it.

Yup I actually went through my E3 folder too and found this:

I dont have the rest of the scene, from the watermark I probably got it from some gaffer who posted it in a thread somewhere, but it looks like Natal, and I count four.

Shits starting to reek of FUD.

 

[spiderman123]

.

just want to clarify something since you know more about this than I do )getting lost in all the wii debate)....the max will be 2 player for a couple of years or indefinitely

 

[beast786]

There might have been an extra-bit of info posted afterwards that clarifies things. But nothing in the original article mentioned Kinect specifically having two players max in a game.

The only mention about the processing limit was this: "and the computer will see all of them and can even recognize them as human shapes. But it can only run calculations on two people at a time, just because the processing power required to track all of the body's locations and movements is so great."

In the first place, it does not specify what "the computer" is. We know that with Kinect specifically (which may or may not apply to 'raw tech' the company is referring to), there have been some modifications since its announcement. Such as the removal of the on-board processor(s) and relying more on the 360's own processing power. Microsoft has stated before the hardware could change before it is shipped. So that could very well alter things.

Beyond that, it is unclear how much of the software side of things factors into this. Since Natal was first revealed, Microsoft (and affiliates) have gone on about how the amazing part of tech is the software aspect such as here or here. Of course, it could be the limit is on a lower level than that.

No time frame was given on the two-player processing limit either. Some games might be able to allow four-players depending on the type of game and how information is stored.

Ultimately, I don't think there is any definite statement about Kinect in that article. At the same time, there hasn't been any game shown so far with more than two people playing simultaneously. Though the Kinect Adventure descriptions I've read varies between two and four player support (which may or may not be simultaneous play). I would wait till Microsoft actually comments on it.

Joy ride is set as 2 versus. Meaning you can have more than 2 for a game. But only 2 at a time.

 

[MegaKungFuRadio]

While the gaming press failed to overlook this inquiry during the one time of year where doing their job is actually important, from now until its launch date this will most likely be highlighted. And I'm pretty sure the bullshit videos they've been using won't fly for actual TV or store ads since people won't be able to play sitting down or more than two at a time.

I like how there's a lot of people here defending Microsoft/Kinect and treating it as if they are on equal ground or have any sort of advantage. They are starting off with 0 units of Kinect sold. They are the ones that have to prove to consumers that they should go out and spend 100 dollars on top of their system purchase to get this device. Having this much negative press going for it only a week after E3 is not good for them at all.

I don't see anyone doing that here. Well, maybe one person. Unless you mean "here" as in GAF and not "here" as in this thread. All I'm trying to say is that I don't think people will know or care when it comes down to it. You are saying they will find out and will care. You might be right, but I believe what I believe and neither of us will know until the thing comes out and either sinks or swims.

 

[Unknown One]

Those kids were confused and just hopped in. You can tell by the reaction of one of them.

 

[Redbeard]

Yup I actually went through my E3 folder too and found this:

I dont have the rest of the scene, from the watermark I probably got it from some gaffer who posted it in a thread somewhere, but it looks like Natal, and I count four.

Shits starting to reek of FUD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm0KKa6wACQ

There's where that GIF comes from

they're actually playing a 2 player Kinect game, so the other 2 people in the scene are doing nothing.

well, they may be responsible for Kinect spazzing out @ 26 seconds in

 

[Skiesofwonder]

All of these games require 4 controllers though. The 360 can recognize 4 controllers at will, Kinect itself though cannot distinguish 4 different humans not using controllers. Neither can the Wii or PS3 for that matter.

And I do get how that is a problem, specifically because they are focusing so much on the whole no controller aspect of the system. But games like Rock Band are not played with Wii Motes to begin with, so lets be fair when debating this.

Ok, Rock Band was a bad example. But all of those other games are 4-player (playing at the same time) active video gaming experiences that cannot be replicated on Kinect because it can only handle 2 people at a time. All of those games are big sellers BTW and are played with 4 people at a time, all the time (my household being a big example of that). Wasteland Solider was trying to say not many of those existed Wii, which is simply un-true.

Not having the ability to play 4 players at the same time is not too big of a deal, but it is a problem.

 

[Animator]

Yup I actually went through my E3 folder too and found this:

I dont have the rest of the scene, from the watermark I probably got it from some gaffer who posted it in a thread somewhere, but it looks like Natal, and I count four.

Shits starting to reek of FUD.

There is no way natal can track them anyway with the kids in front of them obscuring their movements.

 

[Beth Cyra]

It amazes me that people people now are finding out info that was known a year ago :lol Shows you how many people are jumping on the hate train, cho cho

I didn't know this was known for a year, and if I had I would have hoped Micro would have worked this kinda shit out and got their tech working properly.

 

[TheOddOne]

You care too much what other people think

Could say the same thing about you though

 

[AranhaHunter]

As far as Move+Nav only supporting up to 3 players, can't Sony or a 3rd party release a cable accessory connecting Move+Nav so the combo only uses 1 bluetooth and it would therefore ultimately support 4 players simultaneously? Or is that technically not possible and I'm talking out of my ass?

 

[expy]

just want to clarify something since you know more about this than I do )getting lost in all the wii debate)....the max will be 2 player forever or indefinitely (prob since it can't handle the 4 player).

Most likely forever, since the hardware specs are pretty much set in stone and the allocated CPU processing is limited to a certain amount.

 

[artist]

Yup I actually went through my E3 folder too and found this:

I dont have the rest of the scene, from the watermark I probably got it from some gaffer who posted it in a thread somewhere, but it looks like Natal, and I count four.

Shits starting to reek of FUD.

When the camera actually shows them playing the spazzing out game, there are only 2 players. Its easy to trick kids into thinking that they are actually playing the game.

Too much defense force in this thread .. :lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

It amazes me that people people now are finding out info that was known a year ago :lol Shows you how many people are jumping on the hate train, cho cho

so it's been known for a year and it's still not resolved?

that's not good...

 

[Beth Cyra]

There is no way natal can track them anyway with the kids in front of them obscuring their movements.

Clearly it can't, but when people are seeing those kinda images in a commercial it is more then fair to think they might assume it will. Most people aren't tech savy and they take what they see in commercials at face value.

Those kinda images are clearly misleading to the general public.

 

[Unknown One]

Anybody who doesn't do the research pretty much deserve to find out the truth the hard way.

So be it.

 

[Cipherr]

When the camera actually shows them playing the spazzing out game, there are only 2 players. Its easy to trick kids into thinking that they are actually playing the game.

Too much defense force in this thread .. :lol

Ahh ok, makes sense.

Epic! :lol :lol Into the E3 folder.

 

[The Faceless Master]

As far as Move+Nav only supporting up to 3 players, can't Sony or a 3rd party release a cable accessory connecting Move+Nav so the combo only uses 1 bluetooth and it would therefore ultimately support 4 players simultaneously? Or is that technically not possible and I'm talking out of my ass?

or they could release a USB Dongle Move or USB Dongle Nav... bam! 8 devices!

 

[Beth Cyra]

As far as Move+Nav only supporting up to 3 players, can't Sony or a 3rd party release a cable accessory connecting Move+Nav so the combo only uses 1 bluetooth and it would therefore ultimately support 4 players simultaneously? Or is that technically not possible and I'm talking out of my ass?

No, even the PS3 Controller when connect via usb is still actually using the Blue tooth connection.

Edit: Apparently I had it wrong, and it was X360 I was thinking of my bad.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I'll just quote what I already said in other threads, then move along.

I don't think there's been any changes, nominally it's still 4p (Zumba Fitness page on Xbox.com mentions 4 player co-op, for instance), but good luck squeezing in 4 moving players in front of your TV.

As far as Zumba Fitness goes, 4 player support is listed among the offline features. Online it's 2-30 players and it also supports online co-op.

True, games that require full range of motions may be limited to two players locally. But I don't see why the same would apply to games you can play sitting down (trivia game from the promo video, for instance).

(Of course, the last quote is from before we knew about the sitting down problems, but the basic point still stands.)

 

[Beth Cyra]

Anybody who doesn't do the research pretty much deserve to find out the truth the hard way.

So be it.

What so it is completely cool to put up false images in your opinion? Damn that is crazy talk.

 

[Warm Machine]

The ability to have at least 4 players on non-narrative pro-multiplayer games has been a 100% standard for a long time. Until now apparently.

The tech really is apples and oranges.

Motion control still hasn't proven itself to have brought something new and interesting to gaming. It has been a lousy replacement for traditional control. The best use of it has been emulating a mouse or a touch screen.

I hate that I have to shake my wiimote to make mario spin attack in NSMBW. Kinect is likely going to have the same impact for me, a curiousity with a few bright ideas in a sea of darkness.

 

[The Faceless Master]

No, even the PS3 Controller when connect via usb is still actually using the Blue tooth connection.

Wrong. a PS3 controller transfers controller data via USB when it's hooked up via USB to a PS3. it's 360 Wireless controllers that always transmit over wifi.

 

[Scalemail Ted]

You have to seriously wonder about the software dryspell of Kinect as well.

They'll launch with their 15 casual games or whatever.

Then what?

What third party in their right mind would develop something exclusively for this -- because that's almost exactly what you have to do in order to develop for this thing at all.

What's worse is you can't make it an optional control scheme in hardcore games, unlike the Move controller, so that will severely limit the software this is compatible with. Move should be able to be integrated into a wide variety of games as options on a consistent basis.

The device could do okay out of the gate, but after the holiday hype dies down what is going to happen to Kinect? I can't imagine there being much software support for it outside of dance and fitness games. The backlash and letdown after the initial launch window is going to be enormous.

It'd be so awesome if they opened this up for xna development. Any word yet, if they intend to include the APIs for Kinect for the XBLA developers?

 

[Beth Cyra]

The tech really is apples and oranges.

Motion control still hasn't proven itself to have brought something new and interesting to gaming. It has been a lousy replacement for traditional control. The best use of it has been emulating a mouse or a touch screen.

I hate that I have to shake my wiimote to make mario spin attack in NSMBW. Kinect is likely going to have the same impact for me, a curiousity with a few bright ideas in a sea of darkness.

Thats you and while I agree with you, the fact that Mario has beaten COD MW2 on one platform speaks against it, so does the damn Wii wheel and Nintedo proclaiming that it was because of this that they where able to reach such a wide margin.

More so even Mario Party 8, the thing was slammed by almost every outlet and while some hardcore gamers liked it it certainly wasn't like 8 million of them, most of them where trashing the thing just like the press.

Motion and simple design of the Wii mote has proven at least so far as numbers have shown to bring people in, Kinect as it stands is quite possibly to lmited to do the same thing.

 

[Unknown One]

What so it is completely cool to put up false images in your opinion? Damn that is crazy talk.

No, but companies been getting away with it all the time. Nothing can be done with it, so it's up to the consumers or potential consumers to research the product to inform themselves.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

It seems like MS just want to be different. Move is just a wiimote, and all the better for it. This motion tracking they have going on just sounds awful.

 

[The Faceless Master]

The tech really is apples and oranges.

Motion control still hasn't proven itself to have brought something new and interesting to gaming. It has been a lousy replacement for traditional control. The best use of it has been emulating a mouse or a touch screen.

I hate that I have to shake my wiimote to make mario spin attack in NSMBW. Kinect is likely going to have the same impact for me, a curiousity with a few bright ideas in a sea of darkness.

oh god, i've died several times because i didn't get that move despite shaking, and every time it happened, in my head i thought "fuck motion controls!" and felt anger towards whoever thought that was a good idea in a platformer.

 

[Redbeard]

No, but companies been getting away with it all the time. Nothing can be done with it, so it's up to the consumers or potential consumers to research the product to inform themselves.

Brings back memories of E3 2005

 

[Beth Cyra]

No, but companies been getting away with it all the time. Nothing can be done with it, so it's up to the consumers or potential consumers to research the product to inform themselves.

Fair enough, doesn't mean we shouldn't call bullshit for what it is. Hell we do it all the time about screen shots.

 

[MegaKungFuRadio]

Thats you and while I agree with you, the fact that Mario has beaten COD MW2 on one platform speaks against it, so does the damn Wii wheel and Nintedo proclaiming that it was because of this that they where able to reach such a wide margin.

More so even Mario Party 8, the thing was slammed by almost every outlet and while some hardcore gamers liked it it certainly wasn't like 8 million of them, most of them where trashing the thing just like the press.

Motion and simple design of the Wii mote has proven at least so far as numbers have shown to bring people in, Kinect as it stands is quite possibly to lmited to do the same thing.

I love when Wii games let me plug in a Gamecube or Classic controller and eschew what I perceive to be useless fluff. The most excited I've ever been for a Wii exclusive feature was using the remote as a cell phone in Silent Hill. Isn't that just a little sad? I know a lot of people feel differently, but I like controllers and am glad I played Twilight Princess on the Gamecube.

 

[C4Lukins]

Nintendo... the leaders in casual gaming...

Wii sports & Resort... 4
Super Mario Bros Wii... 4
Mario Super Sluggers... 4
Mario Kart Wii.... 4
Mario Part 8... 4
Super Mario Galaxy... 2
Legend Of Zelda...1

List ranges from Hardcore to Casual.

The ability to have at least 4 players on non-narrative pro-multiplayer games has been a 100% standard for a long time. Until now apparently.

I think only 3 games on that list require the functionality that the Wii provides in order to provide multiplayer support, one of those being Mario Galaxy which you can play with two people just as you can with Kinect.

But the 360 has dozens of 4 player games on a single system, and not just turn based sorts of things, literally dozens of games that 4 people can play on the same system at the same time. The PS3 has its share as well. Not sure where we are going with this? Unless motion control four player games on the same console is the new Lady Gaga. I mean I did no need a WiiMote to play 4 player on one screen Mario Kart on consoles previously. I am not sure I need it with Doom or N+ either.

 

[Unknown One]

I agree also. I'll leave that to others. I know absolutely nothing on technologies.

 

[Alx]

Both the issue of playing while sitting and the 2 player limitation stem from the fact that (probably) all Kinect games use full-body tracking exclusively, meaning that they can (and have to) track a person's whoe body, even though some of the games could work by tracking only some parts.

I don't really see the point of having systematic full body tracking, but it's obviously what would limit the number of simultaneous players, since it's supposed to be the CPU-expensive part, and that's what the Primesense guy was talking about. But I'm not sure it's something that's done in all games, it would be unnecessary anyway, there are many games where a simple 3D silhouette per player would be enough, and that would cost a lot less. Maybe the limit was only for some categories of games, those that need full body tracking...

I 've also been wondering for some time if there are not several analysis methods used, depending on the application. We know about full body tracking, and we also know about recognition algorithms that learnt a lot of samples of user data. Each has different applications, and you rarely would need both at the same time : for a dancing game for example, you would need body tracking, but no need to recognize a specific gesture, while for triggering an action by a gesture, you would need to recognize the gesture, but you wouldn't need the precise position of limbs.
So the CPU limitations could change according to the way you want to use the device.

Unless Microsoft manages to provide improved development libraries which provide developers with more flexible ways to do the tracking without significant processing overhead, it will be up to the developers themselves to devise different tracking techniques (provided they actually can work at such a low level with Kinect).

From the Ubisoft fitness game, it looks like the devs can access very low level data... but I suppose that most don't have the knowledge to analyze it at a higher level.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I love when Wii games let me plug in a Gamecube or Classic controller and eschew what I perceive to be useless fluff. The most excited I've ever been for a Wii exclusive feature was using the remote as a cell phone in Silent Hill. Isn't that just a little sad? I know a lot of people feel differently, but I like controllers and am glad I played Twilight Princess on the Gamecube.

Don't care for most Wii motion game's either, though I will disagree on Zelda as I thought it was awesome on Wii and I also liked the flashlight in Silent Hill.

My favorite part of Wii isn't the motion at all but is a by product of it. It is actually the seperated hands thing, I love having my arms spread out and relax one on each arm rest when I am relaxing instead of having both sit in my lap.

 

[spiderman123]

I agree also. I'll leave that to others. I know absolutely nothing on technologies.

omg i think i found my console retarded soul mate.

 

[Replicant]

:lol :lol :lol The good news for Kinect just keeps rolling.

 

[C4Lukins]

Ok, Rock Band was a bad example. But all of those other games are 4-player (playing at the same time) active video gaming experiences that cannot be replicated on Kinect because it can only handle 2 people at a time. All of those games are big sellers BTW and are played with 4 people at a time, all the time (my household being a big example of that). Wasteland Solider was trying to say not many of those existed Wii, which is simply un-true.

Not having the ability to play 4 players at the same time is not too big of a deal, but it is a problem.

Yeah but even Super Mario Bros. Wii and Mario Kart Wii are bad examples. They can be played with any basic controller. There may even be a couple of other instances in there, but I can only speak for the games I have actually played.

And I am not really defending Kinect here. They need to get 4 players working at once to make it compelling in the way that particular Wii games are. I am just saying that 4 player gaming is very common on the other two console systems.

 

[odhiex]

You will need 2 Kinect cameras for 4 players.

This was my thought wen i read OP )

 

[Unknown One]

omg i think i found my console retarded soul mate.

Kind of harsh :lol

 

[Beth Cyra]

Yeah but even Super Mario Bros. Wii and Mario Kart Wii are bad examples. They can be played with any basic controller. There may even be a couple of other instances in there, but I can only speak for the games I have actually played.

I don't think they are a bad example, in fact I think Mario Kart Wii is the perfect example. It shows varitey, you can have 4 guys with just sitting there with one another, one dude playing with motion, another playing with a gamecube controller, another with a Wii+Nunchuck, and another with Wii Wheel.

Where the hell is this type of functionality with Kinect, so far we can't sit or have more then two players let alone 4 all doing it comfortably in there own way.

 

[makingmusic476]

You have to seriously wonder about the software dryspell of Kinect as well.

They'll launch with their 15 casual games or whatever.

Then what?

What third party in their right mind would develop something exclusively for this -- because that's almost exactly what you have to do in order to develop for this thing at all.

What's worse is you can't make it an optional control scheme in hardcore games, unlike the Move controller, so that will severely limit the software this is compatible with. Move should be able to be integrated into a wide variety of games as options on a consistent basis.

The device could do okay out of the gate, but after the holiday hype dies down what is going to happen to Kinect? I can't imagine there being much software support for it outside of dance and fitness games. The backlash and letdown after the initial launch window is going to be enormous.

The same third parties that jumped on the Wii bandwagon en masse when it started selling faster than the ps2.

Yeah. Exactly.

 

[MegaKungFuRadio]

This was my thought wen i read OP )

That would be awesome. Imagine the price war discussions we could be having right now.

 

[Gareth Bale]

I thought Microsoft only licensed the tech from Primesense. Correct me if I am wrong, but Primesense didn't put Kinect together did they? They say that processing power is the limit of how many people can be tracked. Since Microsoft supposedly did away with the proprietary chip inside Kinect, which now looks to be true for obvious reasons (limited backwards compatibility, Forza Kinect, etc..) wouldn't it be the case that the 360's CPU is the limit of how many people can be tracked on screen? I'm not saying that the limit for this isn't two people, but even if it is why would Primesense be privy to this information. Microsoft put Kinect together, not Primesense. They were there because they have their tech to license to other companies. So what applies to their models they have on show doesn't necessarily apply to Kinect, as Kinect is not limited to Primesense. Make Primesense?

 

[Skiesofwonder]

Yeah but even Super Mario Bros. Wii and Mario Kart Wii are bad examples. They can be played with any basic controller. There may even be a couple of other instances in there, but I can only speak for the games I have actually played.

I never said MKWii or NSMBWii.

Wii Sports (Tennis)
Wii Sports Resort (Rowboat, bicycling)
Wii Music
Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games
Raving Rabbid Party Games
Carnival Games
Just Dance
We Ski (and Snowboard)
Deca Sports
Rock Band
Grand Slam Tennis
Wario Ware: Smooth Moves
EA Playground

Like I mentioned earlier, all of those are 4 player (at the same time) active video game experiences, and these are the ones that are just off the top of my head.

 

[Particle Physicist]

and wii only has a handful of 4 player games where everyone is up and playing at the same time anyway so big whoop to the what .5% of games that kinect cant do? and even if it could, HONESTLY how many people...not us here at GAF,but hell even if you add gaf, how many have 4 wii control set ups and play 4 player games STANDING UP? I have 2 wii controllers. How many times have i or any of you invited 2 other people over to play wi tennis? oh whats that? and thats here. you think my elder neighbor nxt door has 4 remotes or invites 2 other people to come play wii tennis? doubt it. be real.

hate to break this to you, but one of the main reasons why the wii has sold so much to casuals is because of wii sports 4-player games.. more specifically.. the tennis game. the 4 player games may not make up the majority of the games on the system.. but they make up the majority of the sales and play times. what do casuals care about? they care about cheap games that can be played with lots of people at a party.

 

[Kayhan]

It doesn't matter.

Its just going to be me and Skittles playing together anyways

 

[acm2000]

so much hate from gaf for kinect means....

oh my god, this thing is gonna sell millions.

 

[sprsk]

i like that an explaination is a meltdown :lol its not my fault most of you here just dont want to get it. more funny than anything else to me.

The point is, it doesn't matter that Billy Hatter doesn't have 4 player because THE MOST POPULAR GAMES ON THE SYSTEM DO.