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[Alx]

There's no IR camera anymore?

The depth sensor is the IR camera (actually it's IR camera + IR source + chip measuring depth)

 

[szaromir]

The depth sensor is the IR camera (actually it's IR camera + IR source + chip measuring depth)

Ah, thanks. Do you have more info how the depth measurement works?

 

[Alx]

Not exactly... all Primesense would say is that the source emits "coded light", the sensor read it back and the chip translates it to a depth map. But what is exactly behind the "coded light", I don't really know.
It should be possible to find the Primesense patent, though.

edit : I suppose it's this one, but it's quite boring to read, and I never was really good at optics.
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100118123

 

[Steroyd]

While the system apparently tracks up to six people at a time, it is only capable of tracking two "active players."

Well it's a start to a long road of recovery.

But I wonder do these 6 people have to be in view of the camera all the time, at what point does Kinect "forget" a player?

 

[DevilWillcry]

honestly there's bigger problem with Kinect besides faking demos that were shown to work on the show floor.

Right, there's also everything else

 

[szaromir]

edit : I suppose it's this one, but it's quite boring to read, and I never was really good at optics.
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100118123

Are the drawings posted on that site? I don't see them anywhere and they seem crucial. Nonetheless I got the basic idea, thanks.

 

[gofreak]

Not exactly... all Primesense would say is that the source emits "coded light", the sensor read it back and the chip translates it to a depth map. But what is exactly behind the "coded light", I don't really know.
It should be possible to find the Primesense patent, though.

I'm guessing it's somewhat similar to systems that use visible light; they project light that has geometric patterns onto a scene, and then by analysing how the patterns are bent and warped by the scene, they can calculate depth etc. Except the primesense approach uses IR instead of course.

Alex Evans at MediaMolecule roughed together a spare-time project along these lines, they have some pics to help visualise it:

http://www.mediamolecule.com/lab/article/homebrew_3d_scanner/

 

[Graphics Horse]

I'm guessing it's somewhat similar to systems that use visible light; they project light that has geometric patterns onto a scene, and then by analysing how the patterns are bent and warped by the scene, they can calculate depth etc. Except the primesense approach uses IR instead of course.

Yes it's meant to be something like that, but they'll be using a 2 dimensional pattern, or maybe even switch between horizontal and vertical patterns at 60fps.

edit: changed my mind, I think 1 axis is enough to measure the depth.

Does that explain why the I.R. beam is offset to one side?
I haven't put much though into it but I think if it was in the same position as the sensor, you'd get a blind-spot in the middle of the picture.

 

[Vizion28]

You know, there is an accessory which sold over 25 million that only plays 1 player at a time. It is called Wii Fit. Also,did you know that it is required for you to stand to use the accessory?

Perhaps the audience Microsoft is aiming for doesn't value 4 player simulatenous gameplay. And perhaps they wouldn't mind standing. I mean, the 25 million Wii Fit users don't mind.

It's understandable that you dislike Kinect but please stop declaring it a failure because it doesn't appeal to you. The video game world doesn't revolve around your preferences and tastes.

 

[dose]

You know, there is an accessory which sold over 25 million that only plays 1 player at a time. It is called Wii Fit. Also,did you know that it is required for you to stand to use the accessory?

There's a big difference, people who bought Wii Fit understand that they have to stand and actually want to exercise. People who buy Kinect don't want to stand up all the time to play 'normal' stuff such as driving and action games, and they don't want to have to stand to do simple things like using the dashboard and controlling movies. And tickling tigers.

 

[beast786]

PSeye offers 'uncompressed' yuv or yuyv. Not sure how that compares to '32-bit color'.

But in fact, in pretty much every respect - asides from the depth camera of course - those specs are inferior to PSeye. Lower camera capture rate, smaller FOV, lower quality mics (PSeye's are 16-bit 48hz).

That's not what I'd expect from something far more modern and apparently many times the price. Which is why I think there's something wrong with that picture i.e. the proposed price in particular. I'm more certain than ever than the $150 stuff is pure manipulation of value perception ahead of a real price reveal.

With that reason and the fact they need to stay low because they are entering so late in casual audience.

I am pretty convinced the price of kinect is going to be 70-90 U.S dollar at max. And with arcade type bundle around 250 or less.

 

[Razgreez]

You know, there is an accessory which sold over 25 million that only plays 1 player at a time. It is called Wii Fit. Also,did you know that it is required for you to stand to use the accessory?

Perhaps the audience Microsoft is aiming for doesn't value 4 player simulatenous gameplay. And perhaps they wouldn't mind standing. I mean, the 25 million Wii Fit users don't mind.

It's understandable that you dislike Kinect but please stop declaring it a failure because it doesn't appeal to you. The video game world doesn't revolve around your preferences and tastes.

I think perhaps you're right... in a sense. The difference is Wii Fit had the Wii part attached to it though which meant it was firmly entrenched in the "everybody has it/was doing it" market. That and it was never advertised as allowing one to sit.

Breaking into that "everybody has it/was doing it" market segment is not an exact science and has little to no benefit for people who actually enjoy playing engaging videogames. And please don't ask me to elaborate on engaging, you should have a good idea of what is meant

 

[eznark]

perhaps they wouldn't mind standing

:lol

 

[Alx]

People who buy Kinect don't want to stand up all the time to play 'normal' stuff such as driving and action games, and they don't want to have to stand to do simple things like using the dashboard and controlling movies. And tickling tigers.

While I understand the complaints about the possibility of controlling the interfaces while seated (which MS promised will be in the final device), I don't think people buying Kinect will expect to play "normal stuff such as driving and action games". If they want to play "normal" games, they should use "normal" controllers. There's no point in introducing a new control system if you use it in the exact same games as before.
I even have the opinion that the games unveiled at the moment are too conventional.

 

[beast786]

While I understand the complaints about the possibility of controlling the interfaces while seated (which MS promised will be in the final device), I don't think people buying Kinect will expect to play "normal stuff such as driving and action games". If they want to play "normal" games, they should use "normal" controllers. There's no point in introducing a new control system if you use it in the exact same games as before.
I even have the opinion that the games unveiled at the moment are too conventional.

I agree with that 100%. Move/Eyetoy/Kinect need there own type of games to maximize motion control instead of an add on to current control base games.

And if that does happen, motion controling is going to be justified by its own merit.

What I see as a problem is that nowdays publisher like to port for maximum profit. They like to play safe. Question is who is willing to spend resouces and money on an unproven add-on beside the first party studios.

I think one of the advantage wii had was that everyone already had a motion control and developers had a strong userbase to take some chances.

But I do agree with you, if they try to force controller based games on kinect, then it would never stand out . These motion control games need there own identity.

 

[JaggedSac]

Gamestop has some bad info it appears:

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?sku=020055&loc=ntlpreorder

* Color VGA Motion Camera 640x480 pixel resolution @30FPS
* Depth Camera 640x480 pixel resolution @30FPS
* Array of 4 microphones supporting single speaker voice recognition
* Fully compatible with all Xbox 360 models
* Revolutionary technology that includes body recognition

 

[Speevy]

Kinect ad. theme song revealed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826PTEuHKhE

 

[ITA84]

Gamestop has some bad info it appears:

http://www.gamestop.com/Catalog/ProductDetails.aspx?sku=020055&loc=ntlpreorder

* Color VGA Motion Camera 640x480 pixel resolution @30FPS
* Depth Camera 640x480 pixel resolution @30FPS
* Array of 4 microphones supporting single speaker voice recognition
* Fully compatible with all Xbox 360 models
* Revolutionary technology that includes body recognition

What's bad about it that wasn't already known? Revolutionary technology?

 

[JaggedSac]

What's bad about it that wasn't already known? Revolutionary technology?

There was info today about specs that put the resolution of the depth sensor at half what GameStop has listed.

 

[ITA84]

I thought the Play.com specs listed both 320x240x16bit and 640x480x32bit modes. Maybe I missed some other spec sheet.

 

[Y2Kev]

I really think this is going to be a very affordable bait and switch.

 

[gcubed]

I thought the Play.com specs listed both 320x240x16bit and 640x480x32bit modes. Maybe I missed some other spec sheet.

they had 320x240@30fps for the depth camera and 640x480@30fps for the color regular camera... although not sure why the resolution is a big deal, the sampling rate should be the bigger deal

I really think this is going to be a very affordable bait and switch.

for MS's sake i would hope so, unless the IR camera costs that much, i dont see how any of these specs equal the $150 some sites were reporting what the hardware costs. I have no idea the price of the IR camera, but removing that we're talking what? 30? You can take two PSeye's that have twice the fps (and 4x at the lower res) and that only costs you $40-50

 

[backbreaker65]

Lifted from B3D

Kinect having trouble with the color black.

1:23mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuMPz9ncQI&feature=player_embedded

Per Dumbo11

Black means a colour that absorbs visible light, things that are black don't necessarily absorb near-IR light.

From the near-IR images that I've managed to find:
- some clothing does not show up properly on near-IR cameras, the near-IR light mostly passes through it, but the light will reflect off the skin behind it. (it's possible that loose clothing of this type could cause problems if it partially reflects the light - creating a ghost/flickering image?).
- black leather seems to be very, very black for near-IR.

 

[Dash Kappei]

nothing beats 8 players Mario Kart DS or Bomberman in the same room.

Well, there is something you know... (16 players Mario Kart's LAN party in the same room)

+

+

=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kaWBKHKpeY

 

[Mar]

4 player Wii Tennis was the killer app. Limiting to 2 player just sounds like a bad thing for 'Kinect parties'.

 

[Shred0r]

Already seen this? The actual Kinect costs when wanting to play with 4 people...
Although i assume i could borrow the showel from someone to save money.

http://gamervision.com/users/sarah/articles/the_real_cost_of_microsoft_s_kinect

 

[Argyle]

Already seen this? The actual Kinect costs when wanting to play with 4 people...
Although i assume i could borrow the showel from someone to save money.

http://gamervision.com/users/sarah/articles/the_real_cost_of_microsoft_s_kinect

They forgot to add in the Xbox Live Gold subscriptions!

 

[ralexand]

I guess this is the official Kinect bash thread.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Interesting. If these specs are real, then they've certainly dropped since it was first announced. I seem to remember their RGB camera able to go to 1600x1200 or something.

Also what's funny is the PS Eye can do 640x480 at 75 fps.

Color depth is different, of course.

75 FPS? I remember 640x480 at 60 FPS and 320x240 at 120 FPS (this FAST input mode is something very interesting in PS Eye).

 

[iamaustrian]

Lifted from B3D

Kinect having trouble with the color black.

1:23mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuMPz9ncQI&feature=player_embedded

Per Dumbo11

Black means a colour that absorbs visible light, things that are black don't necessarily absorb near-IR light.

From the near-IR images that I've managed to find:
- some clothing does not show up properly on near-IR cameras, the near-IR light mostly passes through it, but the light will reflect off the skin behind it. (it's possible that loose clothing of this type could cause problems if it partially reflects the light - creating a ghost/flickering image?).
- black leather seems to be very, very black for near-IR.

now that's really horrible, if true

 

[BritBloke916]

now that's really horrible, if true

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Videogamers, technophiles and all other forms of geek are noted for their extreme reluctance to wear black clothing.

 

[Ashes]

hmm.... another day another problem... On this one atleast I'm sure they will fix the problem.

 

[Monty Mole]

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Videogamers, technophiles and all other forms of geek are noted for their extreme reluctance to wear black clothing.

Luckily it'll pick up the tour dates on the back of the T Shirt.

 

[davepoobond]

wait, its a 640 x 480 camera?



.......


thats worth like 5 dollars.

 

[PSGames]

From 2:10 on all Black long sleeve shirt and no problems at all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J9dTOfbm4

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

I guess this is the official Kinect bash thread.

Oh, we don't need anything so formal. GAF is an equal opportunity Kincest basher, fully licensed and authorized to troll this stupid waste of money wherever and whenever we see fit!

 

[Ashes]

From 2:10 on all Black long sleeve shirt and no problems at all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5J9dTOfbm4

Yep, he is wearing a black shirt and its working....
that lag makes it stupid for anthing really skillworthy....
Kinect's cred, for a few people at least, rests on Dance Central's shoulders...

 

[Bru]

There's a big difference, people who bought Wii Fit understand that they have to stand and actually want to exercise. People who buy Kinect don't want to stand up all the time to play 'normal' stuff such as driving and action games, and they don't want to have to stand to do simple things like using the dashboard and controlling movies. And tickling tigers.

Standing for action games? Well, so far we don't really know what's going to happen. As for driving, Chespace (from Turn 10) said that Forza Kinect can be played sitting down....

As for sitting down to play the Forza preview we showed -- I don't expect you to know this of course since you weren't at E3, but you can play the game sitting down and Dan showed this in the demo booth.

So there you go, some reassurance or something. :lol

Microsoft also comments about navigating both movies and the dashboard whilst plonked in a chair...

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/07/kinect-software-will-work-with-seated-players/

Microsoft has clarified that Kinect is very capable of recognizing a user that's sitting, an aspect of the new tech that continues to be a point of confusion. "Kinect can be used while sitting when an experience is developed with sitting in mind," a representative for the company confirmed to Joystiq today.

As for previously revealed Kinect applications that are being developed with a seated user in mind, Microsoft pointed to navigating the Dashboard, along with using the ESPN, Zune and Video Kinect apps as "experiences where we expect people to be sitting."

Microsoft concluded that what it showed at E3 was "only the tip of the iceberg" and that it's going to be "natural for Kinect games to be designed to get you off the couch: dancing, running, dodging, bending and kicking." It's just good to know that we'll also have opportunities to stay seated and move as little as possible to connect to this motion-based gameplay technology.

I suppose ony time can really tell us the good and bad of Kinect. I'm reserving my judgement until release day, when user reports start coming in.

 

[koji]

Microsoft really needs to get its act together, not only the gamedivisions but after the whole Kin debacle and their moves with leaving PC gaming now coming back... Seriously, who is in charge there?

Interesting read if you are interested. Do read some of the comments as well.

They're just all over the place and nothing seems to be thought through...

 

[Zing]

I remember playing Eyetoy games with another person and it was hard enough to get two people into the frame. I don't know how you would be able to squeeze four people into the camera frame in the average living room.