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[obonicus]

Well, dude, you go right ahead and believe what you want. It's not like I've never been to E3 or trade shows or a press conference, man. I know that the corporations behind them spend serious money to have themselves and their product seen in the best possible light. They wouldn't spend the money if they couldn't ensure that for their messaging. They'll show you trailers and footage that beg no questions about authenticity if presented right. Those same people could also choose to not let anyone play those games anywhere on the floor nor in private meeting rooms or hotel rooms offsite. Does anyone's flag go off about that? Maybe, but because there's no way to compare personal experience with what they show you, there's little momentum to go on. So, something gobsmackingly amazing might be shown in trailer form at E3, like The Last Guardian. Are you questioning the veracity of the claims made by such a showing? Are you calling Team ICO and Sony full of shit for deceiving people because they offer no way to play or view this title otherwise? No, probably not. And why? Because you extend them credibility for whatever reason. You believe them to be honest despite it quite possibly not being real footage running on a PS3. Even given Sony's past with claiming certain CG trailers were realtime footage running off of a PS3. You extend them your trust. It's implicit in the way you decide not to get all up in arms about it online on some gaming forum.

Different things, though. There's an added layer of deception in claiming something is a game being played live when it's actually a canned video.

To apply that to canned videos shown as canned videos, it'd have to be like Sony E3 2005, when they showed stuff as in-engine when it was pre-rendered stuff. People generally don't object to videos shown as videos because it gives them an idea what to expect.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Different things, though. There's an added layer of deception in claiming something is a game being played live when it's actually a canned video.

To apply that to canned videos shown as canned videos, it'd have to be like Sony E3 2005, when they showed stuff as in-engine when it was pre-rendered stuff. People generally don't object to videos shown as videos because it gives them an idea what to expect.

Did you decide to not read my second paragraph? In isolation, the act was deception of a kind. But because this was at a show aimed at people who will all play and film and talk about their experiences (in fact, they're encouraged to) and then relay that to millions across the web, newspapers, television and radio broadcast, what true deception actually remains a true deception? If you're trying to demo motion controls, since they are the draw of these game demos on stage, the only way to ensure that still undercooked software can properly convey the control and what it does on-screen is to show people playing it. If you have a person show up on a 100' stage holding traditional game controller, how in the fuck are you supposed to tell it's actually them playing and not some footage with someone miming it. How can you actually tell if their hand, finger, and thumb movements are true to what's going on in the game shown on that big screen projection? You could have and probably have been deceived before in presentations and did not know it at the time and may still not know that you, in fact, were deceived by on-stage demos.

The 'deception' MS achieved is possibly the most poorly carried-out and most ineptly-executed in video game history if it were intended as such given the reality of free reign that press and others were given (and encouraged) to share with their access to these same pieces of software before and after that same fucking conference. :lol

 

[obonicus]

Did you decide to not read my second paragraph? In isolation, the act was deception of a kind.

I was pointing out that showing off teaser and early trailers isn't nearly as deceptive as staging live demos that are no such thing.

For the record, though I don't like it, I agree that since Kinect was available to be played on the show floor what MS did was understandable. Especially in light of the Zelda live demo.

 

[AFreak]

I should have read the complete source earlier, but it looks like you're right :



So the standard Primesense camera embeds a chip that does the processing, but is limited to 2 complete skeleton analysis, while the kinect outputs only the depth map and also the human detections (which is not limited to 2 persons according to the other statement).

It's still probable that there is a limitation on what can be processed on the 360 (like this dancing game that could only manage two players), but it put the OP in another light...

But didn't they remove the extra chip from the camera for kinect?

 

[AFreak]

I think the biggest problem with the move is that there is no d-pad on the move itself. It really limits what you can do 4 player wise. There cant be anything like NSMBWii because there is no way to control the characters using a move alone. I really think the move wand should have a d-pad at the bottom of the wand making for easy sidecontrolling, etc.

BTW, through a firmware could they upgrade the bluetoother detection to 8 devices, or is that an inherrent limitation of the bluetooth itself and not the PS3's problem? I don't see why it would be so hard to add one more bluetoother enabled device access tot he PS3 to all for full move + wand 4 player support.

 

[jorma]

My favorite future-moment is going to be when Kinectimals has a better first month on the NPDs than Killzone 3. Oh, the tears that day :lol

It's time for you to turn in your gamer card, friend.

 

[nofi]

Primesense were keen to stress to me that the Joystiq interview was absolutely about their tech at that point, and not necessarily Microsoft's, FWIW.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/21/kinect-not-limited-to-2-players/

 

[Alx]

But didn't they remove the extra chip from the camera for kinect?

Yes exactly... that's why the Primesense declarations are not really meaningful : they're talking about the limitations of a chip that kinect is NOT using, since everything is done software on the Xbox.
We can still wonder about the current performances of the software, since all games we've seen that perform full body tracking are 2 players max, but the declaration that triggered everything has no real value.

 

[freddy]

Primesense were keen to stress to me that the Joystiq interview was absolutely about their tech at that point, and not necessarily Microsoft's, FWIW.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/21/kinect-not-limited-to-2-players/

And yet you have the Zumba game with only two players. Maybe it was a design choice to limit the flailing injuries

Also they wrote this. "So, Kinect – it can track multiple players no problem."

Whos words are these?

 

[Alx]

And yet you have the Zumba game with only two players. Maybe it was a design choice to limit the flailing injuries

The other dancing game is only 1 player, it doesn't mean that 2 is impossible.
There is certainly a CPU cost in the equation, the tracking of limbs is very probably the most CPU-expensive analysis of the bunch, and according to your game requirements (and design), you would want to limit the number of simultaneous players.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I think the biggest problem with the move is that there is no d-pad on the move itself. It really limits what you can do 4 player wise. There cant be anything like NSMBWii because there is no way to control the characters using a move alone. I really think the move wand should have a d-pad at the bottom of the wand making for easy sidecontrolling, etc.

You're not the only one. They even messed up the face buttons to the point where they can't be used like a dpad anymore.

 

[freddy]

So given that they removed a chip is it possible that Kinect may have been capable of tracking 4 players but now longer has the horsepower to do it?

 

[Ashes]

Just read this.

Apparently Kinetic Kinect can't detect wrist movement. At least not yet. smh.

http://www.gamexplain.com/article-179-1277081359-kinect-cant-detect-wrist-movement.html

Didn't want to post a new thread cause it's little sensationalist in my opinion. Feel free to post a new thread yourself though, if you think it warrants it.

edit: Jeez... sor-reey. Kinect it is then.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

So given that they removed a chip is it possible that Kinect may have been capable of tracking 4 players but now longer has the horsepower to do it?

The proof is in the pudding. There are no games with more than two players.

If only some enterprising game journalist would do his job and ask Microsoft we could drop the pretense of not knowing for sure.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

It's Kinect not Kinetic goddamnit This is becoming one of those Patcher type things.

 

[Stink]

Can Kinect do anything at this point? :lol

 

[cakefoo]

Can Kinect do anything at this point? :lol

Spazz-ual games? :lol

 

[ralexand]

Just read this.

Apparently Kinetic can't detect wrist movement. At least not yet. smh.

http://www.gamexplain.com/article-179-1277081359-kinect-cant-detect-wrist-movement.html

Didn't want to post a new thread cause it's little sensationalist in my opinion. Feel free to post a new thread yourself though, if you think it warrants it.

The guy said the game doesn't detect wrist movement not the system, so it isn't certain whether Kinect can or not. Probably depends on the joints that their software is tracking.

 

[freddy]

The proof is in the pudding. There are no games with more than two players.

If only some enterprising game journalist would do his job and ask Microsoft we could drop the pretense of not knowing for sure.

GAF has community managers that openly post here and would surely know but they've been strangely quiet. Perhaps they are busy or away.

 

[Alx]

If only some enterprising game journalist would do his job and ask Microsoft we could drop the pretense of not knowing for sure.

Like the SixthAxis for example ?

Just read this.

Apparently Kinetic can't detect wrist movement. At least not yet. smh.

http://www.gamexplain.com/article-179-1277081359-kinect-cant-detect-wrist-movement.html

I can't access the source right now, but it's no big surprise : the sensor measures absolute position, rotations must be deduced from that, and with imprecise information like hands (which are a small and complex shape), you can't expect a good precision (unless you're holding something bigger and easier to analyze, like a stick, but that would defeat the purpose of controller-free gaming).
You have to use it for what it's good at (that's why games like ping-pong and bowling in kinect sports was a bad idea, IMO, while volley-ball is much more appropriate)

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Like the SixthAxis for example ?

You seem to be under the impression that I have some great love for Sony. I don't think you've considered the possibility that I just dislike bad products.

GAF has community managers that openly post here and would surely know but they've been strangely quiet. Perhaps they are busy or away.

If at no point Microsoft has talked about something this basic before, I think it's safe to say that their community managers don't have clearance to do so by their own volition.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Just read this.

Apparently Kinetic Kinect can't detect wrist movement. At least not yet. smh.

Yeah that was obvious to me once someone pointed it out about a year ago. If your hand is open it might have a chance, but not with a fist. I'm expecting the star wars game to rely on you 'holding' the lightsabre two-handed.

 

[Alx]

You seem to be under the impression that I have some great love for Sony.

No, I'm under the impression that the SixthAxis DID ask directly to the source about the number of players limitation, and got a clear answer...

According to a rep from Primesense, the company responsible for the tech behind Kinect, the limitation reported by Joystiq is a factor of their software, not Kinect’s. In short, the technology Primesense were working with could only track two players, but this is absolutely not the case for Kinect, which, the spokesperson told TheSixthAxis, has no such limit.

from the link a few messages above
http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/21/kinect-not-limited-to-2-players/

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

According to a rep from Primesense, the company responsible for the tech behind Kinect, the limitation reported by Joystiq is a factor of their software, not Kinect’s. In short, the technology Primesense were working with could only track two players, but this is absolutely not the case for Kinect, which, the spokesperson told TheSixthAxis, has no such limit.

That's not a Microsoft statement.

The relevant question to ask is "What is the user limit for Kinect tracking?"

 

[JaseC]

Link?

10 or so posts up...

Edit: Okay, more like 15. :lol

Edit 2: Oh, you found it.

 

[freddy]

If at no point Microsoft has talked about something this basic before, I think it's safe to say that their community managers don't have clearance to do so by their own volition.

I can imagine that they would be wanting to downplay the limitations, yea.

So far we have:
Can't sit down and play games.
Two players max for local multiplayer.
Can't detect wrist movement.

If it were me and any of these weren't true I'd be wanting to clarify things right away.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

10 or so posts up...

Edit: Okay, more like 15. :lol

Edit 2: Oh, you found it.

I'm not sure how I missed it other than the post being so small. It's also 6am and I should probably be asleep. Insomnia is a bitch.

 

[nofi]

No, I'm under the impression that the SixthAxis DID ask directly to the source about the number of players limitation, and got a clear answer...

Be careful not to extrapolate. Primesense simply said that the Joystiq article was referring to their tech, and not Microsoft's, and that there's been no limit to the number of players mentioned by anyone.

That's not a Microsoft statement.

The relevant question to ask is "What is the user limit for Kinect tracking?"

Precisely. That question would need to go to Microsoft.

 

[ralexand]

This entire thread is based on a extrapolation about Primesense's technology onto what Kinect could do.

 

[Alx]

Primesense simply said that the Joystiq article was referring to their tech, and not Microsoft's, and that there's been no limit to the number of players mentioned by anyone.

They clearly said that there was no limitation to the number of players (which would probably put the console to its knees at some point, but that's another thing).
Sure it's not from MS directly, but it's from a source who knows the techniques involved, and admits that their own technology is less capable than the one from another company. That alone makes it sound more honest than anything a MS PR could say.
(besides, it didn't bother anybody that Primesense was an external company in the "it can only track 2 people" declarations).

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

They clearly said that there was no limitation to the number of players (which would probably put the console to its knees at some point, but that's another thing).
Sure it's not from MS directly, but it's from a source who knows the techniques involved, and admits that their own technology is less capable than the one from another company. That alone makes it sound more honest than anything a MS PR could say.
(besides, it didn't bother anybody that Primesense was an external company in the "it can only track 2 people" declarations).

I find it odd that Primesense is gospel now that they support your hopes but were incredible when they didn't.

If things are as rosy as you suggest then an unequivocal statement from Microsoft should not be hard to produce.

In the meantime would you care to speculate why games as simple as Joyride support only 2 players?

 

[Alx]

I find it odd that Primesense is gospel now that they support your hopes but were incredible when they didn't.

I never doubted their declaration, even if it turned out not to be related directly to kinect.
My opinion has always been that since the analysis is software based, a lot of things can be done, until launch and after that, and that there should not be "hard" limitations.

Actually I'm sure that the number of players can be a problem when you're tracking the full body, and it's probably a more difficult problem than people sitting in a couch ; but because it's software based, I'm sure you can :
1. limit yourself to the needed measurements, which would eat up less CPU and allow for more players in certain games
2. expect better releases of the body analysis that would free resources.
3. build games that would need few resources, and leave more room on the CPU for body analysis.

In the old software Vs embedded debate, software is always the more versatile solution.

 

[nofi]

I'm sure you can :
1. limit yourself to the needed measurements, which would eat up less CPU and allow for more players in certain games
2. expect better releases of the body analysis that would free resources.
3. build games that would need few resources, and leave more room on the CPU for body analysis.

I'm assuming this is the point. There appears to be no such fixed limits now it's in software.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I never doubted their declaration, even if it turned out not to be related directly to kinect.
My opinion has always been that since the analysis is software based, a lot of things can be done, until launch and after that, and that there should not be "hard" limitations.

Actually I'm sure that the number of players can be a problem when you're tracking the full body, and it's probably a more difficult problem than people sitting in a couch ; but because it's software based, I'm sure you can :
1. limit yourself to the needed measurements, which would eat up less CPU and allow for more players in certain games
2. expect better releases of the body analysis that would free resources.
3. build games that would need few resources, and leave more room on the CPU for body analysis.

In the old software Vs embedded debate, software is always the more versatile solution.

So we can agree that functionally, Kinect cannot currently sustain more than two users at once and that, like sitting (but probably more serious), all games now in development are taking this into account?

 

[JaggedSac]

I called it several pages back. They were speaking about PrimeSense's software. I would like a round of applause now please. K Thx.

 

[Alx]

So we can agree that functionally, Kinect cannot currently sustain more than two users at once and that, like sitting (but probably more serious), all games now in development are taking this into account?

All we know for sure is that tracking more people would require more resources, and that game development must take it into account. But it's common sense, we all knew about that since the moment it was announced that the analysis was done by the console.
It doesn't seem right to suppose that kinect can or cannot sustain a given number of players... there is probably a rule like "N players with a analysis of complexity M will take X % of the CPU" and the game designers will have to decide what they will allow themselves to do with it.
Once again it's not a binary decision "2 players or bust", it's a management of available resources, not much different than when regular games limit split-screen multiplayer to 2 instead of 4.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

All we know for sure is that tracking more people would require more resources, and that game development must take it into account. But it's common sense, we all knew about that since the moment it was announced that the analysis was done by the console.
It doesn't seem right to suppose that kinect can or cannot sustain a given number of players... there is probably a rule like "N players with a analysis of complexity M will take X % of the CPU" and the game designers will have to decide what they will allow themselves to do with it.
Once again it's not a binary decision "2 players or bust", it's a management of available resources, not much different than when regular games limit split-screen multiplayer to 2 instead of 4.

I think that when the very simplest games on the console, from Microsoft themselves no less, cannot support more than 2 players then it is a safe assumption that the software is not currently where it needs to be in order to allow more than that, if it is even possible to free up enough processing power at all.

We know that with the sitting issue Microsoft instructed developers to plan accordingly--I don't see how this situation would be much different.

Again the only ones who know the full story are Microsoft and they're not talking.

I called it several pages back. They were speaking about PrimeSense's software. I would like a round of applause now please. K Thx.

Actually they were speaking about PrimeSense's hardware and that's been known for a while now. The same issue in the OP is actually the issue being discussed now, except we are left to speculate on how much of a problem it is for the 360 processor and whether or not there exists the capacity to support more players in the future (it definitely does not right now).

 

[Raist]

There is a major difference. Sony presented complete CGI as gameplay. Microsoft presented gameplay as gameplay, they just pretending they were playing it. I'm not defending the fact that they did it, I'm defending what it means for Kinect. If people read about how "Microsoft should be ashamed because they pretended their demo's were live" they are obviously going to get the wrong impression that it was another Killzone 2-like incident.

That's exactly the point people are making. You saw how the game looks, you have absolutely no idea of how it plays. Well, you have the theory (which is the least of people's preoccupations), but you don't know if it's responsive, prone to errors, etc etc. And for a new controller tech, that is a huge problem.
You really have to wonder why they have to pre-record and have a dude pretend playing for real. If it's just "to prevent accidents" well that means that the tech is still not ready.

Not to mention that at no point they said that it was what going on and they presented that as genuine gameplay demos. They did for the video reel last year, the problem is that the "final" product is nowhere near what they demo'd.

 

[Raistlin]

This entire thread is based on a extrapolation about Primesense's technology onto what Kinect could do.

The basis is that all games shown thus far are 2-player, and that a cross-platform title is listed as 4-player for Wii and Move, while Kinect is listed as supporting 2.

 

[The Faceless Master]

To see a concept, it would have to be literally fake. A rendition of what the game might be. What Microsoft showed WAS the game, just a recording of it. It's the equivelent of getting someones gameplay footage of Modern Warfare 2 off YouTube and pretending to play it. Anyone watching still see's how the game works.

There is a major difference. Sony presented complete CGI as gameplay. Microsoft presented gameplay as gameplay, they just pretending they were playing it. I'm not defending the fact that they did it, I'm defending what it means for Kinect. If people read about how "Microsoft should be ashamed because they pretended their demo's were live" they are obviously going to get the wrong impression that it was another Killzone 2-like incident.

a pre-recorded in-engine cutscene is gameplay?

 

[venne]

That's exactly the point people are making. You saw how the game looks, you have absolutely no idea of how it plays. Well, you have the theory (which is the least of people's preoccupations), but you don't know if it's responsive, prone to errors, etc etc. And for a new controller tech, that is a huge problem.
You really have to wonder why they have to pre-record and have a dude pretend playing for real. If it's just "to prevent accidents" well that means that the tech is still not ready.

Not to mention that at no point they said that it was what going on and they presented that as genuine gameplay demos. They did for the video reel last year, the problem is that the "final" product is nowhere near what they demo'd.

If only everyday people had the opportunity to use Kinect on the show floor.

That would have surely addressed these lingering questions and people would stop complaining.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

That's exactly the point people are making. You saw how the game looks, you have absolutely no idea of how it plays. Well, you have the theory (which is the least of people's preoccupations), but you don't know if it's responsive, prone to errors, etc etc. And for a new controller tech, that is a huge problem.

And how can I possibly know that until I play it myself? At best, I can read hands-on impressions, which I have done.

You really have to wonder why they have to pre-record and have a dude pretend playing for real. If it's just "to prevent accidents" well that means that the tech is still not ready.

Not to mention that at no point they said that it was what going on and they presented that as genuine gameplay demos. They did for the video reel last year, the problem is that the "final" product is nowhere near what they demo'd.

But we know that isn't the case this year. The working software used by thousands of people at E3 is exactly as it appeared at the conference. So, you can have your beef with Microsoft for pretending to play recorded footage, and that's fine, my argument isn't supporting that, but we know for a fact that Kinect works as it was advertised at this years conference, so if you're going to make an assumption as to why Microsoft faked those demos, that assumption shouldn't be "Because they were hiding something" or "The tech isn't that good yet". We know it is, the hands-on impressions support that, and the hours of video that surfaced after E3 look virtually the same as the gameplay Microsoft demoed.

But this debate has been going on for 2 pages now, it doesn't need brought back up. If you're against what Microsoft did, I'm cool with that. I just don't think it in any way reflects on Kinects quality given what we and the press saw and played after the conference.

a pre-recorded in-engine cutscene is gameplay?

They weren't pretending to play a cut-scene. They were pretending to play the game, as it actually looks and plays and exactly as we saw it played later that day by thousands of people. Here's how they presented Kinectimals, for example, and here is how people played it.,

 

[Clear]

One of the things that kinda bugs me about the way Kinect is being presented is the way hardware and software functionality are used interchangably. The reality I suspect is that Kinect as a piece of hardware is final, but the software libraries and back-end are going to be improved continuously over time.

The message from MS is that the level of functionality on show is "just the beginning", which is fair enough because that's the upside of a software-driven service, but who's to say expanding its abilities won't have a significant cost to general performance?

Given that so much of the processing back-end is actually run from the 360 that could be a major issue. Its like an engine developer saying they can run an infinite number of viewports/scenes concurrently, but only show 2 running at an acceptable framerate/latency.

Sure going to 4 panes is clearly possible, but is it going to be desirable if running a display formatted that way requires major sacrifices to scene complexity, framerate, etc?

Without deep insight who knows if adding extra skeletons increases costs trivially, linearly, or exponentially... those are 3 very different outcomes.

 

[venne]

One of the things that kinda bugs me about the way Kinect is being presented is the way hardware and software functionality are used interchangably. The reality I suspect is that Kinect as a piece of hardware is final, but the software libraries and back-end are going to be improved continuously over time.

The message from MS is that the level of functionality on show is "just the beginning", which is fair enough because that's the upside of a software-driven service, but who's to say expanding its abilities won't have a significant cost to general performance?

Given that so much of the processing back-end is actually run from the 360 that could be a major issue. Its like an engine developer saying they can run an infinite number of viewports/scenes concurrently, but only show 2 running at an acceptable framerate/latency.

Sure going to 4 panes is clearly possible, but is it going to be desirable if running a display formatted that way requires major sacrifices to scene complexity, framerate, etc?

Without deep insight who knows if adding extra skeletons increases costs trivially, linearly, or exponentially... those are 3 very different outcomes.

My guess is they are using the 360 as an entry point and they are positioning Kinect to perform much better in the next generation. That's probably why they opted to leave out the hardware in the unit and do the processing in the system. That way, you can still use the same Kinect hardware from this generation and get better performance in the next.

The novelty of the experience alone can carry it today.

 

[ITA84]

But we know that isn't the case this year. The working software used by thousands of people at E3 is exactly as it appeared at the conference.

I'm pretty sure they accomodated for the lag at the conference, so it's not exactly.

 

[Clear]

That's probably why they opted to leave out the hardware in the unit and do the processing in the system. That way, you can still use the same Kinect hardware from this generation and get better performance in the next.

Excellent point. Ultimately Kinect's hardware is just a sensor array after all.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

I'm pretty sure they accomodated for the lag at the conference, so it's not exactly.

If they did, they didn't do a very good job. I think lag looked worse at the conference. As I said earlier though, the giant screens probably have an awful delay -- Lag isn't something that should be judged under such circumstances.

 

[JaggedSac]

Actually they were speaking about PrimeSense's hardware and that's been known for a while now. The same issue in the OP is actually the issue being discussed now, except we are left to speculate on how much of a problem it is for the 360 processor and whether or not there exists the capacity to support more players in the future (it definitely does not right now).

People were talking about the comments made by PrimeSense about a 2 user limit on their middle ware, the NITE / Perception Middleware. MS is not using this. At the onset of this thread, people were claiming these statements were in direct relation to Kinect. They were not, and I said such.

That's probably why they opted to leave out the hardware in the unit and do the processing in the system. That way, you can still use the same Kinect hardware from this generation and get better performance in the next.

MS might also license their solution to any vendors who need to process depth images, audio, and rgb images. Separating the hardware from the software has many advantages.

 

[Integra]

I spoke too soon :lol :lol :lol

http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/...n-new-gaming-hardware-headed-your-way/1402922

Wii 2? Xbox 720? PS4? Sorry folks -- we're not getting brand new versions of the current crop of consoles any time soon. But while the next game revolution might be a few years off, the console war is about to heat up again as the big three release competing new tech in the months ahead.

How's it stacking up? We're glad you asked. Fresh off our firsthand experiences with the big three's upcoming new devices at the E3 2010 convention, here's a quick look at what to expect from the hardware soon to be tempting you on store shelves.

Microsoft Kinect
Kinect
Preorder from Amazon
Release Date: November 4
Price: Unannounced

The motion-sensing machine formerly known as Project Natal enjoyed a massive presence at E3 2010. In addition to a number of Microsoft's own games, several third-party publishers unveiled Kinect titles due out later this year.

Pros:

The good news is that Kinect mostly works as advertised. Simply standing in front of the camera triggers a quick calibration period, and from there, it's hands-free controller bliss. Whether you're striking yoga poses, driving a car with an imaginary wheel or busting out sweet dance moves, the system is up to the task. Coolest of all? Navigating menus with a flick of the wrist and controlling movie playback with your voice alone. "Xbox, pause!" Awesome.

Cons:

Despite the impressive technology under its hood, Kinetic doesn't always flawlessly copy your movement. We noticed a slight lag while playing several Kinect titles, just enough to temporarily suspend the sense of immersion. It's no dealbreaker, but we're hoping Microsoft spend the next few months ironing out the lag kinks.

Then there's the pricing issue. It's a bit unusual for a company to announce a firm release date for a new piece of hardware while withholding its price, but that's exactly how Microsoft played its hand at E3. Rumors of a $150 price tag could push this out of the comfort zone of its target family demographic. And while that demographic will undoubtedly be pleased with Kinetic's casual game lineup, the more hardcore gamers -- also the ones more willing to plunk down money on fancy new tech -- might be a little miffed at the lack of variety.

Top games:
Dance Central
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved
Kinectimals
Child of Eden


Playstation Move
Playstation Move
Preorder from Amazon
Release date: September 19

Price: $49.99 - $99.99

Though plenty was already known about Sony's motion-sensing system, E3 2010 provided a venue for thousands to get their hands on the hardware and loads of games. Providing notably better accuracy than the Nintendo Wii remote, the Move hopes to lure in gamers growing tired of the Wii's limited technical capabilities.

Pros:

Give credit where credit is due: the Move is indeed far better at following your motions than the Wii remote. The tracking is tight and responsive, closer to the 1:1 dream consumers initially expected from Nintendo. Combined with the Playstation Eye camera, this allows for some unique applications like Eyepet, which places a cuddly virtual creature in the middle of the living room and turns your controller into a variety of pet rearing tools.

But Sony also went out of its way to show Move support in more robust titles, such as upcoming firefight SOCOM 4, light gun game Time Crisis: Razing Storm, golf king Tiger Woods 11 and recent adventure hit Heavy Rain. We're not sure Move will make traditional games better, but we're certainly glad Sony's giving it a shot.

Cons:

Yes, it's more accurate. Yes, it's more colorful. And yes, the camera opens up new possibilities. But no matter how hard Sony tried to make Move out to be a game changer at E3, we couldn't waggle away the feeling that they're just chasing Nintendo rather than blazing their own path. Until we see a Move game that truly pops off the screen, this feels more like a "could have" accessory than a "must-have" purchase.

Speaking of which, Sony's smoke and mirror act regarding the pricing isn’t helping. You can buy the motion-sensing wand for $49.99, but that's only useful if you already happen to own the Playstation Eye camera. If not, you'll need one of those, too ($39.99). Then there's the "navigator" (think Wii nunchuck), which costs an extra $29.99. Alternately, you can buy a bundle that includes one wand, the Playstation Eye and Sports Champions for $99.99. Confusing? You betcha, and that's not the word you want associated with the launch of your new hardware.

Top games:
Sorcery
SOCOM 4
Eyepet
Sports Champions


Nintendo 3DS
3DS
Release Date: Early 2011
Price: Unannounced

Nintendo turned E3 2010 into a coming out party for its ambitious 3DS portable, and what a party it was. The 3D-enabled handheld wowed showgoers with its amazing visuals, stealing the thunder from Microsoft and Sony's motion-sensing devices.

Pros:

All the 3D, none of the glasses! Or cost, really. While Sony showed off visually stunning but financially troubling games requiring 3D televisions and special specs, Nintendo blew everyone away with a flick of a switch. We tinkered with a few games and films during our brief hands on time with the prototype unit at E3, and suffice to say, the 3D effect works like a charm.

The system is more than just 3D, however. It's got all the features of the DSi -- Wifi, touch screen, clamshell design -- but throws in a few nice new ones, including an analog stick, a wider top screen running at 800 x 240 resolution, a front facing camera and cool dual outside cameras to allow for 3D picture taking.

Cons:

How many DS machines is too many DS machines? While the 3DS is designed from the ground up to play new 3D titles, it also plays the entire DS library. Of course, you might have just bought a DSi XL. Or a standard DSi. Or a DS Lite. Demand for new handhelds isn’t as great as demand for a new, HD-enabled Wii, yet this is where Nintendo has chosen to focus its attention.

We're also curious as to how, exactly, Nintendo plans on distributing 3D movies. Sony had loads of problems convincing consumers to buy UMD-based flicks for the PSP, and we'd expect the same pushback from 3DS owners if they're asked to purchase movies on cartridge. Presumably they'll just add movies to the DSiWare digital store, but until we learn more about the 3DS' storage capabilities, consider us skeptical.

Top games:
Kid Icarus Uprising
Pilotwings
Star Fox
Metal Gear Solid: Snake Eater

-points up to Yahoo- reports like this will be what makes this a big deal due to how many go to Yahoo for news. and this was on one of the main article highlights of the day too.

 

[iamaustrian]

what's that "input lag"-thing i read here?

How is the input lag for kinect?

i thought you "don't even recognize it"