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[Alx]

Wait a minute I haven't been on GAf really since E3, so am I to believe you can't play with more than 2 people at a time and you can't even sit down!!??? Or are you guys just joking?...

Long story short :
- all the games demoed at E3 were played standing
- comments from developers unveiled that the current software has difficulties recognizing gestures from sitting users.
- MS acknowledged this situation but guaranteed that it will be "fixed" for launch.
- Primesense (who builds the sensor) said that the motion analysis chip they use in their own camera couldn't track the full body of more than 2 users at the same time. (It is important to know that kinect does not use this chip, but is software-based).
- from what we know, all games featuring full body tracking are 2 players max at the moment.

 

[AndyD]

My favorite future-moment is going to be when Kinectimals has a better first month on the NPDs than Killzone 3. Oh, the tears that day :lol

GAF will cry. But GAF knows that sometimes sales != quality.

 

[Kittonwy]

You can use Move in a similar fashion. Another point for Move.

AND it glows.

 

[Vinci]

My favorite future-moment is going to be when Kinectimals has a better first month on the NPDs than Killzone 3. Oh, the tears that day :lol

Hmm. I'm betting, at best, that they'll be similar.

 

[Kaako]

Version 2.0 let's go:

http://i45.tinypic.com/54r3l.png

:lol :lol :lol

You can also grow mushrooms on logs. <3 me some shiitakes!

 

[MirageDwarf]

http://i45.tinypic.com/4l3vi9.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ignis Fatuus]Version 2.0 let's go:

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/54r3l.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

:lol Just reserved one log to pick it up free. It's much better deal.

 

[SirButterstick]

GAF will cry. But GAF knows that sometimes sales != quality.

It's going to be hilarious. I bet we're going to get at least one post on the level of "Square shot themselves in the foot" righteous anger.

 

[Throwaway123456789]

Even more bad press:

A swedish site tried the Kinect and apparently it won't work well if you move your hands behind your back, the avatars will spasm if you duck down and the jumping is iffy. The input lag is also horrible according to the site.

http://blogg.aftonbladet.se/e3bloggen/2010/06/alfred-testar-kinect-like-no-other-man-before-him

Some quotes translated:

What did I think about Kinect? The software looks surprisingly good, and the hardware is surprisingly terrible.

Even though Kinect is supposed to be so advanced it works just like an Eyetoy. If you try to do more advanced moves, like holding your arms behind your back, the avatar spasms out. It's very embarrasing, and it looks horribly buggy.

 

[Agent X]

I doubt they are releasing it without much testing. They are releasing it with the knowledge that the software can be upgraded at any time. Any game that needs the update can package it on the disc, or download(since Natal requires 178mb of disc space anyway, users have to have at least some storage). Pretty much anything related to the processing of the depth map is a software issue, not a hardware one(unless more power is needed, but I bet optimizations are going to occur in the Kinect libraries and possibly the Kinect firmware).

MS will probably offer APIs that allow for a degradation of skeletal system fidelity in order to boost performance. Thus allowing 4 player play. They could also implement a completely different solution than a skeletal system at some point in the future(and who knows they haven't already) that can be used for other purposes. You don't need a complete skeleton to traverse a menu, so why do the processing. This would help with the sitting situation and would also help with processing. Certain games might could make use of that as well. MS has a VERY open system here in terms of what they can do in the future.

EDIT: Natal is the most upgradable solution out of all three of the motion control schemes. Hell, developers don't even have to use MS's APIs, take a look at Your Shape. Ubisoft is processing the depth map using their own tools.

You make some good points, but the problem here is that Kinect appears to have made very little progress in the last year. For example, they should not be showing canned demos on stage out of fear of hardware glitches. Kinect should be robust enough now that they should be able to do all of their stage demos live, with working hardware and working software.

Kinect might be upgradable, but most consumers want their equipment to work as advertised when it's taken out of the box. They don't have patience to "beta test" the device for another year or more while the APIs mature. How much time and how many upgrades would they need to "get it right"? Again, seeing their slow progress really does not inspire much confidence.

 

[Afrikan]

Even more bad press:

A swedish site tried the Kinect and apparently it won't work well if you move your hands behind your back, the avatars will spasm if you duck down and the jumping is iffy. The input lag is also horrible according to the site.

http://blogg.aftonbladet.se/e3bloggen/2010/06/alfred-testar-kinect-like-no-other-man-before-him

Some quotes translated:

what if a person only has one arm?...will it let him/her play in the first place?

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

A swedish site tried the Kinect and apparently it won't work well if you move your hands behind your back

Oh please, say it ain't so! Will it at least work well with my hands in my pockets?

 

[Graphics Horse]

what if a person only has one arm?...will it let him/her play in the first place?

Well... I'd be surprised if it showed them with one arm, so it's hard to predict where it would put it.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Well... I'd be surprised if it showed them with one arm, so it's hard to predict where it would put it.

Maybe Kinect supports four one-armed and one-legged people at once?

 

[Vizion28]

Really, how many people have enough living room space for 4 people to be jumping, gyrating, kicking, swinging, squating, flailing etc.? Even if a home does have enough space for 4 people I reckon there will be a lot of injuries with so much vigorous motion going on.

Seriously, some blowing this way out of proportion.

To many it is just as fun to speculate as to participate. I don't see how a 2 simulatenous player limit will make it a less family fun tool.

 

[noah111]

what if a person only has one arm?...will it let him/her play in the first place?

Doubtful, not even sure if it'll work if someone is wearing a dress, or any type of close that doesn't make your limbs and joints clearly visible (baggy shirt perhaps)?

 

[SovanJedi]

Seriously, I mean, Log

• Rolls down stairs (alone or in pairs) over your neighbour's dog
• Fits on your back
• Is great for a snack
• Is big
• Is heavy
• Is wood
• Is better than bad, it's good

Fixed.

 

[JesseZao]

Even more bad press:

A swedish site tried the Kinect and apparently it won't work well if you move your hands behind your back, the avatars will spasm if you duck down and the jumping is iffy. The input lag is also horrible according to the site.

http://blogg.aftonbladet.se/e3bloggen/2010/06/alfred-testar-kinect-like-no-other-man-before-him

Some quotes translated:

Need a new thread.

Kinect not compatible with shy people.

 

[KaYotiX]

Gaf is about 1% of the gaming community, the rest of the ppl dont care if its 2 players only. Once again Gaf explodes and nobody cares.....

 

[Afrikan]

Really, how many people have enough living room space for 4 people to be jumping, gyrating, kicking, swinging, squating, flailing etc.? Even if a home does have enough space for 4 people I reckon there will be a lot of injuries with so much vigorous motion going on.

Seriously, some blowing this way out of proportion.

To many it is just as fun to speculate as to participate. I don't see how a 2 simulatenous player limit will make it a less family fun tool.

well that is why I expect MS to at-least have these types of games....but if the Kinect can't even support this, then wow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOXohr4XE-4&feature=related

that's 4 people next to each other having fun.....on the PS2.

 

[CozMick]

Gaf is about 1% of the gaming community, the rest of the ppl dont care if its 2 players only. Once again Gaf explodes and nobody cares.....

But when 99% of the gaming community spend $150 on it, get home, sit on there nice couch and find that it doesn't work properly..........that's where the problems begin for MS.

 

[KaYotiX]

But when 99% of the gaming community spend $150 on it, get home, sit on there nice couch and find that it doesn't work properly..........that's where the problems begin for MS.

What problem? They will either a) add 4 player support by launch or b) say it only supports 2 players. Its not like this thing is launching next week. They have alot of time still to work on it.

 

[kittens]

Wow. How much more can they screw this up?

 

[TL4E]

A lot of the Kinect-bashing is premature. Do you really believe MS would make Kinect/Natal a cornerstone of two consecutive E3 presentations and then proceed to launch a "half-baked" product? They still have a) about five months until launch and b) can delay it if necessary.

I'm not particularly fond of Kinect however. One of the promotional videos has a family playing while sitting down--not to mention multiple people in the room making it seem anything but 2-player limited. But in reality no one gives a shit for such nuances except perhaps a unique few. :lol

 

[Raide]

What problem? They will either a) add 4 player support by launch or b) say it only supports 2 players. Its not like this thing is launching next week. They have alot of time still to work on it.

I think the reply was more to do with the "Kinect only works standing!!!" Could be wrong though!

 

[CozMick]

I think the reply was more to do with the "Kinect only works standing!!!" Could be wrong though!

Yeah, My post was about the whole Kinect debate in general, not just the 4 player false advertising.

 

[Vinci]

A lot of the Kinect-bashing is premature. Do you really believe MS would make Kinect/Natal a cornerstone of two consecutive E3 presentations and then proceed to launch a "half-baked" product? They still have a) about five months until launch and b) can delay it if necessary.

The delay isn't feasible, honestly. This thing needs to hit during this Christmas holiday if they want to have a chance of any sort of mainstream adoption.

 

[KaYotiX]

I think the reply was more to do with the "Kinect only works standing!!!" Could be wrong though!

There still have been conflicting reports on that also, its still way to early to know how Kinect will perform. It does look more interesting than Move though, at least to me. I already have a Wii with 4 remotes and nunchucks. I dont want anymore controller clutter from Sony's product and as with Kinect, Move looks like its just doing the same thing as the Wii did.

 

[spiderman123]

You make some good points, but the problem here is that Kinect appears to have made very little progress in the last year. For example, they should not be showing canned demos on stage out of fear of hardware glitches. Kinect should be robust enough now that they should be able to do all of their stage demos live, with working hardware and working software.

Kinect might be upgradable, but most consumers want their equipment to work as advertised when it's taken out of the box. They don't have patience to "beta test" the device for another year or more while the APIs mature. How much time and how many upgrades would they need to "get it right"? Again, seeing their slow progress really does not inspire much confidence.

that's what i\m fearing too given the time they had to improve till e3 and now the time they have to further improve till launch date. Personally I don't have a problem with the 4 player compatibility. The standing issue is my main concern.

 

[Raide]

The delay isn't feasible, honestly. This thing needs to hit during this Christmas holiday if they want to have a chance of any sort of mainstream adoption.

Absolutely. If they miss out on that chance, they could give Move way more time to gain traction. They could possibly delay it for Easter and still do well but Christmas time is the best time to shoot for.

that's what i\m fearing too given the time they had to improve till e3 and now the time they have to further improve till launch date. Personally I don't have a problem with the 4 player compatibility. The standing issue is my main concern.

If the standing thing is not resolved for launch, it would be a major issue. Sure they could patch it later but its really one of those things to sort Day 1.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

well that is why I expect MS to at-least have these types of games....but if the Kinect can't even support this, then wow...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOXohr4XE-4&feature=related

that's 4 people next to each other having fun.....on the PS2.

Kinect can support that, it's just a camera game. Your webcam can do that. The problem is when the 360 has to use Kinect's depth sensor to fully track a human body -- the more things it has to track the more CPU usage it needs. The "2 persons only" limit discussed in this thread is for PrimeSense's camera hardware CPU though, not the 360 which undoubtedly has more horsepower to share (and is running Microsoft's software, which should be better at handling system resources and tracking in general).

I'm going to guess that it isn't a case of whether it broadly can or can't support 4 players simultaneously, but it'll depend on each individual game. It'll depend on if it needs to track whole bodies, or just the head or just the hands. Also the game engine itself will have to be taken into consideration.

 

[spiderman123]

Absolutely. If they miss out on that chance, they could give Move way more time to gain traction. They could possibly delay it for Easter and still do well but Christmas time is the best time to shoot for.

take more time to improve it absolutely, new technology gets me. But new gaming tech that doesn't work for gaming comfort..............another story.

 

[freddy]

A lot of the Kinect-bashing is premature. Do you really believe MS would make Kinect/Natal a cornerstone of two consecutive E3 presentations and then proceed to launch a "half-baked" product? They still have a) about five months until launch and b) can delay it if necessary.

a) they had a year since E3 2009
b)Delaying isn't an option now the date has been set. That would say to the world "we have problems"

 

[goomba]

So what about that gif with the mum, dad and two kids playing river rush??

 

[TL4E]

I was going to argue that Wii MotionPlus was adopted relatively well despite being released in June but I realized:

a) It was substantially cheaper
b) It was packed in with an extremely popular game's sequel (and we know how well that works... see: Wii Play)
c) Far different player base

 

[Vinci]

Absolutely. If they miss out on that chance, they could give Move way more time to gain traction. They could possibly delay it for Easter and still do well but Christmas time is the best time to shoot for.

As much as people like to talk about this, I don't think Move is really the competition for Kinect. Indifference is.

 

[Yoshi256]

Oh please, say it ain't so! Will it at least work well with my hands in my pockets?

That's the command for deleting your gamertag, why you wanna do this?

Nobody I know is excited about Kinect and I only asked Non-gamers.

Who will buy this? The people that also bought the PSP GO and Virtual Boy? ;-)

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I was going to argue that Wii MotionPlus was adopted relatively well despite being released in June but I realized:

a) It was substantially cheaper
b) It was packed in with an extremely popular game's sequel (and we know how well that works... see: Wii Play)
c) Far different player base

d) It fucking worked.

 

[Vinci]

I was going to argue that Wii MotionPlus was adopted relatively well despite being released in June but I realized:

a) It was substantially cheaper
b) It was packed in with an extremely popular game's sequel (and we know how well that works... see: Wii Play)
c) Far different player base

d) It was on a system that the audience was already paying a helluva lot of attention to.

 

[spiderman123]

i wonder if Microsoft is reading this thread right now and hopefully understand the "outrage"

 

[Afrikan]

Kinect can support that, it's just a camera game. Your webcam can do that. The problem is when the 360 has to use Kinect's depth sensor to fully track a human body -- the more things it has to track the more CPU usage it needs. The "2 persons only" limit discussed in this thread is for PrimeSense's camera hardware CPU though, not the 360 which undoubtedly has more horsepower to share (and is running Microsoft's software, which should be better at handling system resources and tracking in general).

I'm going to guess that it isn't a case of whether it broadly can or can't support 4 players simultaneously, but it'll depend on each individual game. It'll depend on if it needs to track whole bodies, or just the head or just the hands. Also the game engine itself will have to be taken into consideration.

yeah that is what I would believe, but is there an option for it to go into just a "webcam" mode...if that makes sense.....and not have to automatically render an entire human body for these types of games.

 

[Haunted]

To be fair, logs are pretty fucking sweet.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Wow, keep 'em coming, Kinect never stops on giving!
And all those awesome games... can't wait!

Spoiler

fuck this shit :/

 

[Vinci]

i wonder if Microsoft is reading this thread right now and hopefully understand the "outrage"

This assumes that Microsoft is woefully stupid when it comes to product design, testing, or marketing to the audience this product is meant to appeal to. I don't see how this would be a 'hopeful' thought.

 

[freddy]

i wonder if Microsoft is reading this thread right now and hopefully understand the "outrage"

 

[Raide]

i wonder if Microsoft is reading this thread right now and hopefully understand the "outrage"

Even if they did, the might be thinking "WTF GAF??" since they may have already patched the Standing thing and the only 2 player issue depends on what game you play.

I am sure this will be going into some huge E3 report as we speak.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

yeah that is what I would believe, but is there an option for it to go into just a "webcam" mode...if that makes sense.....and not have to automatically render an entire human body for these types of games.

Yeah, the dev's will have access to each of Kinect's capabilities individually. There's no use in having it tracking you if a game just wants to make use of the mic, for example, or when you're in a video chat.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

what if a person only has one arm?...will it let him/her play in the first place?

Spoiler

he really wanted to play the star wars game

 

[Alx]

For example, they should not be showing canned demos on stage out of fear of hardware glitches. Kinect should be robust enough now that they should be able to do all of their stage demos live, with working hardware and working software.

Even the Wii, which is now an "old", simple and proofed technology, had troubles on stage... the fear of glitches is justified in any live demo, even if you think you have a good product.

 

[beast786]

I am not sure why are people even comparing Kinect to Move. There is no competition between Kinect and move.

MS is going after casual market for kinect as you can clearly see from Confrence. And that casual market is OWNED by wii.

As per sony conference was more for general variety with move including some casual games but not the main focus.

It seems sony knows it cant beat wii. BUt is giving its current base an option to also enjoy wiiHD titles.

Kinect it seems wants to challenge wii and the casual market.

There is no fight between Move and Kinect.

 

[SolidusDave]

Oh please, say it ain't so! Will it at least work well with my hands in my pockets?

uhm, they announced Kinect would be able to do that.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/08/ms-developer-talks-tech-natal-correctly-positions-your-hand-ev/

Because of this the system can predict your hand position, even if it's obscured, based on the location of other parts of your body.

So they have a right to say it (currently) can't do it.




btw. does Kinect work now with dark skinned people or was that only a theoretical problem/does not affect the gameplay in the end?