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[Hypereides]

I am not sure why are people even comparing Kinect to Move. There is no competition between Kinect and move.

MS is going after casual market for kinect as you can clearly see from Confrence. And that casual market is OWNED by wii.

As per sony conference was more for general variety with move including some casual games but not the main focus.

It seems sony knows it cant beat wii. BUt is giving its current base an option to also enjoy wiiHD titles.

Kinect it seems wants to challenge wii and the casual market.

There is no fight between Move and Kinect.

I completely agree. This is exactly my stance on the subject.

 

[Agent X]

Even the Wii, which is now an "old", simple and proofed technology, had troubles on stage... the fear of glitches is justified in any live demo, even if you think you have a good product.

Sure, and glitches happen occasionally. For products that haven't been released yet, we can only hope that the makers of the product will understand what caused the glitch, and work it out before release.

The fact that Microsoft was still doing canned demos on stage more than a year later is telling. Not merely the canned demos, mind you, but canned demos accompanied by actors pretending to play the game by pantomiming movements to try to imitate the onscreen action. This is a flagrant attempt to decieve the people watching the show into thinking that they were watching a live demonstration, and they really should be ashamed.

If they didn't want to perform a live demo, then they would have been better off rolling a sizzle reel on the video screen (without the stage actors mimicking the gestures) and stating that "the product is still in development". That shouldn't be a problem, since they (and some of their fans) seem to be fond of stating this every time some newfound flaw or limitation is brought to light.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Just out of interest, which demos were canned aside from the Cirque du nonsense?

I know the Forza one looked dodgy at the end, but most of it looked convincing.

 

[boiled goose]

Just out of interest, which demos were canned aside from the Cirque du nonsense?

I know the Forza one looked dodgy at the end, but most of it looked convincing.

everythign during the press conference was canned

 

[Graphics Horse]

everythign during the press conference was canned

Even Your Shape? I find that hard to believe. I should watch it again but I really can't be arsed.

 

[Integra]

But the question is: can they do all that soon enough? That is, before their customers figure out Kinect's shortcomings and (possibly) decide it 'doesn't work' for them. Fighting bad word of mouth can be hard even with the best marketing campaigns. Of course that depends on how many customers care for these issues, but if there aren't many, Microsoft shouldn't waste time trying to fix them, should they?

good question and a good point. the only way anyone will really know if they got cheated out of something like this would be if they went to the threads like this one here or the 360 forums (if they allow info like that to be posted o.o). if no one does, then it won't make any waves. if they do, then yeah you're gonna hear about an update and multiple patches to make it work like it was originally announced. lets not forget the other places that bring up the info about Kinect and its functions: Yahoo News, MSNBC, CNN, in those technology departments, maybe. even though we know most of their reporting is a joke when it comes to the gaming.

 

[Ninja-Matic]

Wow... it's just one bad thing after another with Kinect. WTH?

 

[JaggedSac]

everythign during the press conference was canned

Nope

 

[gcubed]

Even Your Shape? I find that hard to believe. I should watch it again but I really can't be arsed.

I couldn't imagine your shape was. That's one though

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Even Your Shape? I find that hard to believe. I should watch it again but I really can't be arsed.

Yeah, I can't see 'Your Shape' being faked; it was too accurate, and it was given the exact same demonstration at the Ubisoft conference with differences in movement. Kinect Sports and Kinect Adventures looked live too. I think Forza and Kinectimals are the obvious ones, but I don't see how it matters given that they've been demoed perfectly ever since. To say they should be "ashamed" is massively over exaggerating given that that it was simply pre-recorded versions of the working E3 demo's, not some fake CG demo that doesn't match what was actually shown on the show floor.

 

[beast786]

Yeah, I can't see 'Your Shape' being faked; it was too accurate, and it was given the exact same demonstration at the Ubisoft conference with differences in movement. Kinect Sports and Kinect Adventures looked live too. I think Forza and Kinectimals are the obvious ones, but I don't see how it matters given that they've been demoed perfectly ever since. To say they should be "ashamed" is massively over exaggerating given that that it was simply pre-recorded versions of the working E3 demo's, not some fake CG demo that doesn't match what was actually shown on the show floor.

Question is why show it as a demo when it isnt. They never told during or before the demo that this is the concept. They made sure you and I believed that what we saw was real. With bull enthusiasim and what not.

People dont expect demo to be fake. Would it also be ok if the Gears of War 3 demo was also faked.

The whole point of live demo is to show what you have and how it is. Its simply lying to the consumer. No matter if the product works or not in real life. If you choose to perform fake acting demos then also tell your audiences that this is the represtation of our vision and our product.

 

[Particle Physicist]

2 people a party does not make

.... exactly my point.

 

[jaypah]

Question is why show it as a demo when it isnt. They never told during or before the demo that this is the concept. They made sure you and I believed that what we saw was real. With bull enthusiasim and what not.

People dont expect demo to be fake. Would it also be ok if the Gears of War 3 demo was also faked.

if people were free to immediately go and see the game themselves right after the "live" demo then yeah, i'd say it's ok. i'd say the only people making a big deal about that would be fanboys, but i know that's not the type of guy/gal that you are so it's not directed towards you.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Question is why show it as a demo when it isnt. They never told during or before the demo that this is the concept. They made sure you and I believed that what we saw was real. With bull enthusiasim and what not.

People dont expect demo to be fake. Would it also be ok if the Gears of War 3 demo was also faked.

The whole point of live demo is to show what you have and how it is. Its simply lying to the consumer. No matter if the product works or not in real life.

What do you mean "No matter if the product works or not in real life". Of course that matters. It's the difference between lying by showing something that isn't the case, and showing the actual game in it's current state, recorded earlier, but pretending that it is live to prevent a fuck up. Why? Because anything can mess up on stage, even Zelda, and they wanted to be 100% certain that Kinect looked good, and worked as well as it does off-stage for it's unveiling.

Would I care if the Gears of War 3 demo was recorded hours earlier and they were pretending to play on stage? No... why the fuck would I care about that? Seriously. I'd only care if they had done something to the footage to portray the gameplay as something it isn't. If they've simply played the game and recorded a perfect take, then I honestly couldn't give a shit. I'm sure a lot of games played on-stage are pre-recorded and pretended to be played.

if people were free to immediately go and see the game themselves right after the "live" demo then yeah, i'd say it's ok. i'd say the only people making a big deal about that would be fanboys, but i know that's not the type of guy/gal that you are so it's not directed towards you.

Yup, and that's exactly what happened. There is video footage of the press and public playing every single game demonstrated shown on stage.

 

[sykoex]

I really don't see what the big deal is about it only being 2 players, who needs 4 people standing side by side jumping and dancing in front of a TV in their living room? I think the demo reels we've see so far ring totally true, 4 people with 2 playing at a time and the other 2 cheering the players on. Kinect is all about YOU being the controller, why wouldn't you want an audience?


On the topic of "were the demos real?" Your Shape was real, everything else looked insultingly fake.

 

[beast786]

if people were free to immediately go and see the game themselves right after the "live" demo then yeah, i'd say it's ok. i'd say the only people making a big deal about that would be fanboys, but i know that's not the type of guy/gal that you are so it's not directed towards you.

Like i said. Its not about if it works or not. Because they did "NOT" demo there product.

Example.

Zelda demo reflected what the game is about. And you saw what happend. The issues of live demo are part of what shows the consumer the confidence in that product. Thats why we like live demos. Because it give us the confidence.

If you dont have the confidence for live demo, then its also a clear message about the product.

I wouldnt have had any problem if they did mention these fake demos to be the vision of Kinect. Why lie to your audience?

 

[Variable]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qlHoxPioM&feature=related

@ 2:52

Did you read the disclaimer at the start of the video?

 

[Unknown One]

Probably because the people watching at home will not even notice it's faked or will question it.

 

[beast786]

What do you mean "No matter if the product works or not in real life". Of course that matters. It's the difference between lying by showing something that isn't the case, and showing the actual game in it's current state, recorded earlier, but pretending that it is live to prevent a fuck up. Why? Because anything can mess up on stage, even Zelda, and they wanted to be 100% certain that Kinect looked good, and worked as well as it does off-stage for it's unveiling.



Yup, and that's exactly what happened. There is video footage of the press and public playing every single game demonstrated shown on stage.

Because mess up are part of the product. And thats why when there is a live demo, people are more impress than a fake video that is fully choreographed.

There is no honesty in decieving your audience. If it works then do it live. Why "Lie " to your audience?

I am not sure why are you defending lying to costumers as OK.

There is a reason its called a "DEMO" not "Acting"

 

[Alucrid]

Anyone know where the link is to the "Xbox. Stop." video is?

 

[beast786]

Did you read the disclaimer at the start of the video?

And I had no problem with that at all. Why put a disclamer in that video and non during the presentation?

Both were faked and choreographed.

 

[jaypah]

Like i said. Its not about if it works or not. Because they did "NOT" demo there product.

Example.

Zelda demo reflected what the game is about. And you saw what happend. The issues of live demo are part of what shows the consumer the confidence in that product. Thats why we like live demos. Because it give us the confidence.

If you dont have the confidence for live demo, then its also a clear message about the product.

I wouldnt have had any problem if they did mention these fake demos to be the vision of Kinect. Why lie to your audience?

but i heard the Zelda fuck-ups didn't happen at all once people had hands on with it. i think i've even heard it from multiple sources. so it seems like MS did the right thing. and actually you're agreeing with me even though i know that you'd hate to. think about it; if the demo fucks up on stage but not in normal use isn't that actual live demo now the deception? :lol

anyway, just fucking with you. i don't have anything invested in this shit so if you feel that MS lied and fooled the public i don't see any harm in that.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

I wouldnt have had any problem if they did mention these fake demos to be the vision of Kinect. Why lie to your audience?

Because it's a stage show and it's not designed to be watched under such scrutiny. Regardless, the issue has been blown out of proportion. Think what you want about how Microsoft runs their stage show, but we know the games work as shown, so in the grand scheme of things their fake portrayal of it being live doesn't matter. At the end of the day, they didn't misrepresent what the products are and how they play, and that is the main thing.

 

[beast786]

but i heard the Zelda fuck-ups didn't happen at all once people had hands on with it. i think i've even heard it from multiple sources. so it seems like MS did the right thing. and actually you're agreeing with me even though i know that you'd hate to. think about it; if the demo fucks up on stage but not in normal use isn't that actual live demo now the deception? :lol

anyway, just fucking with you. i don't have anything invested in this shit so if you feel that MS lied and fooled the public i don't see any harm in that.

You are seeing this as a "white lie". Which is fine. If thats how you feel.

But there is some integrety when people who actually have the balls and have full confident in there product to do live demo. That itself does tell you alot about that product.

That is the reason I watch demos. I am not sure whats the point of showing "choregraphed acting". When you are telling the public that it WASNT fake.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Because it's a stage show and it's not designed to be watched under such scrutiny. Regardless, the issue has been blown out of proportion. Think what you want about how Microsoft runs their stage show, but we know the games work as shown, so in the grand scheme of things their fake portrayal of it being live doesn't matter. At the end of the day, they didn't misrepresent what the products are and how they play, and that is the main thing.

No they didn't misrepresent what their products did and I had no problem with it. But if faked demos become the norm then it does open up opportunities for deception in the future. For that reason alone I'd rather see legit demos.

 

[Unknown One]

Demos messing up on stage is understandable a lot of company usually rushed to get a demo out for E3. Lying is probably one of the worst things to do on E3. Nobody defended the blatant Sony CGI liefest 2005 and for that nobody should defend this blatant lie by MS. GAF seems to have no double standards on this issue unlike the gaming media.

 

[beast786]

Because it's a stage show and it's not designed to be watched under such scrutiny. Regardless, the issue has been blown out of proportion. Think what you want about how Microsoft runs their stage show, but we know the games work as shown, so in the grand scheme of things their fake portrayal of it being live doesn't matter. At the end of the day, they didn't misrepresent what the products are and how they play, and that is the main thing.

Well, I guess we agree to disagree.

Lets keep one thing in mind. You never saw how gamed worked if you saw the conference. You just saw the concept.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

Lets keep one thing in mind. You never saw how gamed worked if you saw the conference. You just saw the concept.

To see a concept, it would have to be literally fake. A rendition of what the game might be. What Microsoft showed WAS the game, just a recording of it. It's the equivelent of getting someones gameplay footage of Modern Warfare 2 off YouTube and pretending to play it. Anyone watching still see's how the game works.

Demos messing up on stage is understandable a lot of company usually rushed to get a demo out for E3. Lying is probably one of the worst things to do on E3. Nobody defended the blatant Sony CGI liefest 2005 and for that nobody should defend this blatant lie by MS. GAF seems to have no double standards on this issue unlike the gaming media.

There is a major difference. Sony presented complete CGI as gameplay. Microsoft presented gameplay as gameplay, they just pretending they were playing it. I'm not defending the fact that they did it, I'm defending what it means for Kinect. If people read about how "Microsoft should be ashamed because they pretended their demo's were live" they are obviously going to get the wrong impression that it was another Killzone 2-like incident.

 

[Fourth Stooge]

Apparently the cowards at Micro$oft restricted the live demos to the 45,000 people on the show floor.

In other news, Major Nelson is not a "Major." Or even in the military.

 

[beast786]

To see a concept, it would have to be literally fake. A rendition of what the game might be. What Microsoft showed WAS the game, just a recording of it. It's the equivelent of getting someones gameplay footage of Modern Warfare 2 off YouTube and pretending to play it. Anyone watching still see's how the game works.

.

I Dont think thats a correct example at all.

The whole point of Controler free gaming raised questions were based on lag issues and accuracy. How would you be able to tell that from the demo?

In your mind as a general public, there was no lag at all. Because what was shown was not how it is. Hence it was a lie.

No one question about the controls of MW2 or input lage or whatever because we know thats not people cared about when seing footage of MW2.

But for kinect the biggest question was the 1:1 motion or lag or accurate does it pick up those quick moment. And all of that in the name of "REAL" demo was staged and faked to mass audience. What any warning of being fake.

What you saw again, was a concept and Nothing at all real about it.

 

[PoliceCop]

Because it's a stage show and it's not designed to be watched under such scrutiny. Regardless, the issue has been blown out of proportion. Think what you want about how Microsoft runs their stage show, but we know the games work as shown, so in the grand scheme of things their fake portrayal of it being live doesn't matter. At the end of the day, they didn't misrepresent what the products are and how they play, and that is the main thing.

If you sent Kinect a card on Valentine's Day would it bring you a rose in return?

 

[Unknown One]

None of these acts should be defended at all. If you got live booths you should have an actual live demonstration. No ifs and buts about it. Nintendo demoed Zelda with that mishap and it worked fine in the booths from what I read on GAF.

 

[beast786]

Apparently the cowards at Micro$oft restricted the live demos to the 45,000 people on the show floor.

In other news, Major Nelson is not a "Major." Or even in the military.

Edit.

Not worth it.

 

[InaudibleWhispa]

I Dont think thats a correct example at all.

The whole point of Control free gaming and questions were based on lag issues and accuracy. How would you be able to tell that from the demo?

In your mind as a general public, there was no lag at all. Because what was shown was not how it is. Hence it was a lie.

No one question about the controls of MW2 or input lage or whatever because we know thats not people cared about when seing footage of MW2.

But for kinect the biggest question was the 1:1 motion or lag or accurate does it pick up those quick moment. And all of that in the name of "REAL" demo was staged and faked to mass audience. What any warning of being fake.

What you saw again, was a concept and Nothing at all real about it.

How does faking it benefit them in any way with regards to lag performance? You think it looked lagless at the conference? Watching the Giant Bomb footage after the show, Jeff's first comment was how laggy it looked on stage. A lot of the hands-on impressions say that it plays better than it looked on stage. People shouldn't be judging lag and such on the stage demo anyhow, given that the giant screens probably have a pretty bad delay.

 

[jaypah]

Demos messing up on stage is understandable a lot of company usually rushed to get a demo out for E3. Lying is probably one of the worst things to do on E3. Nobody defended the blatant Sony CGI liefest 2005 and for that nobody should defend this blatant lie by MS. GAF seems to have no double standards on this issue unlike the gaming media.

those are 2 completely different things considering you couldn't walk out of the Sony conference and play KZ2 in 2005 but just for the sake of humor; 1) at the time people absolutely defended the KZ2 demo and Motorstorm. 2) when KZ2 came out people came out of the woodworks just to defend it saying that Sony were vindicated because the final product looked better. just because you'd like to rewrite history doesn't mean that you can.

 

[a Master Ninja]

I don't think Kinect only allowing 2 simultaneous players is a big deal compared to it's apparent inability to recognize seated players. Have you ever played Wii Sports Tennis or Just Dance four player? It's hazardous.

 

[Agent X]

Zelda demo reflected what the game is about. And you saw what happend. The issues of live demo are part of what shows the consumer the confidence in that product. Thats why we like live demos. Because it give us the confidence.

If you dont have the confidence for live demo, then its also a clear message about the product.

Exactly!

Because it's a stage show and it's not designed to be watched under such scrutiny. Regardless, the issue has been blown out of proportion. Think what you want about how Microsoft runs their stage show, but we know the games work as shown, so in the grand scheme of things their fake portrayal of it being live doesn't matter.

I'm sorry, but you're being way too forgiving of this.

Maybe it wasn't intended to be watched under such scrutiny, but these things happen. In this day and age of pocket-sized camcorder and camera phones, you figured some guy was going to get some footage for people to "frame count". When that happened, and people noticed the movement of the on-screen character didn't match what the "player" was doing (in some cases, moving before the "player" as seen in the Star Wars and Forza demos), they questioned it, and rightfully so.

Occurrences like this cast a lot of doubt on what Kinect can do, and how the product will (or won't) live up to the way it's being represented. The brief history of Kinect has been fraught with all sorts of mishaps: the obviously faked "concept video" from last year's unveiling; "BAM!"; the hyping up of the bleeding-edge skeletal tracking chipset and subsequent "downgrade" by having the chipset removed. Here we are a year later and we're still questioning whether more than two people can play, or whether they can remain seated...having staged demos with choreographed motion actors serves to add more fuel to the fire.

If so much is already known to have been faked or downgraded compared to the vision of the product that was presented at E3 '09, then what else are they hiding?

At the end of the day, they didn't misrepresent what the products are and how they play, and that is the main thing.

Sorry, but it's not the main thing. It shows a lack of confidence in the product if they couldn't manage to give even five minutes of live demo time while the mainstream media cameras were rolling.

If having some actor on stage mimic the motions really wasn't important, then why have the actor on stage at all? It was an attempt at deception, pure and simple. Pay no attention to what the frame counters have noticed.

Or, I suppose "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught." Problem is, they got caught.

 

[jaypah]

fine. MS committed the ultimate sin. burn them alive. etc.

honestly there's bigger problem with Kinect besides faking demos that were shown to work on the show floor.

 

[beast786]

How does faking it benefit them in any way with regards to lag performance? You think it looked lagless at the conference? Watching the Giant Bomb footage after the show, Jeff's first comment was how laggy it looked on stage. A lot of the hands-on impressions say that it plays better than it looked on stage. People shouldn't be judging lag and such on the stage demo anyhow, given that the giant screens probably have a pretty bad delay.

So you are saying is that Microsoft intentionally choose to make it worse? By acting out a larger fake lag?

There were alot of people who watched the E3 MS press conference without listening to Giant Bomb or other gaming site.

Why do people have to go to giant bomb for real story? When they believe what they saw was live and real.

Again, You are missing the point.

Even during late night infra commercials they put a little line on the bottom as " Its being acted and not real" :lol

I am not dicussing the acurracy of kinect. I am a tech freak. I would pick it up just like i did my 3DTV.

But I cant believe its ok to defend fake choreographed as real life demos. Because then I feel sorry for all the honest people who work there bud out to make sure everything is ok at the time of the show.

 

[SolidusDave]

How does faking it benefit them in any way with regards to lag performance?

This simply doesn't matter because you can't know how it would perform if they only show fake demos.

 

[freddy]

If you sent Kinect a card on Valentine's Day would it bring you a rose in return?

I can't believe he has the inability to take a step back and look at what he appears to be doing.

 

[Unknown One]

those are 2 completely different things considering you couldn't walk out of the Sony conference and play KZ2 in 2005 but just for the sake of humor; 1) at the time people absolutely defended the KZ2 demo and Motorstorm. 2) when KZ2 came out people came out of the woodworks just to defend it saying that Sony were vindicated because the final product looked better. just because you'd like to rewrite history doesn't mean that you can.

I don't really care if both are completely different. In both cases lies were spread around.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Dozens of videos and impressions on the internet pre- and post-MS conference detail how the very same games demoed play. The conference was staged to avoid a Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword technical mishap that is common with unfinished titles. Saying that it's pre-alpha code doesn't make a difference to people you're targeting with the demo if they don't understand what that means. And, certainly, taking and cutting up demo footage of a technical issue, even if it's only one-hundredth of second out ninety-nine of during a demo can make all the stuff that does work go down the drain. It may be some element of dishonesty to some, but they were all playable by thousands of people free to film and post to the internet and post impressions during the whole convention. Does this mean that we go beyond questioning the actuality of unplayable trailers and game footage shown at conferences and posted to the internet (because you cannot play them to see how they work for yourself) by making out the publishers and developers to be dishonest enough to whine about in a thread like you are doing, Beast? There's a fine line, sure. I think you are making something out of nothing, Beast. But, really, go on and continue to look quite suspiciously selective in your outrage. If MS and third parties had not allowed anyone to play, film, and talk about the very same games demoed at the conference before and afterward, you'd have a point about some level of real deception.

 

[beast786]

Dozens of videos and impressions on the internet pre- and post-MS conference detail how the very same games demoed play. The conference was staged to avoid a Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword technical mishap that is common with unfinished titles. Saying that it's pre-alpha code doesn't make a difference to people you're targeting with the demo if they don't understand what that means. And, certainly, taking and cutting up demo footage of a technical issue, even if it's only one-hundredth of second out ninety-nine of during a demo can make all the stuff that does work go down the drain. It may be some element of dishonesty to some, but they were all playable by thousands of people free to film and post to the internet and post impressions during the whole convention. Does this mean that we go beyond questioning the actuality of unplayable trailers and game footage shown at conferences and posted to the internet (because you cannot play them to see how they work for yourself) by making out the publishers and developers to be dishonest enough to whine about in a thread like you are doing, Beast? There's a fine line, sure. I think you are making something out of nothing, Beast. But, really, go on and continue to look quite suspiciously selective in your outrage. If MS and third parties had not allowed anyone to play, film, and talk about the very same games demoed at the conference before and afterward, you'd have a point about some level of real deception.

Here is a new idea.

If you dont think its ready then dont show it.

I wonder why we have live demo anyways.? Because every live demo has an inherent risk with it. BUt that risk is based on confidence in your product and your work.

Mixing people who work there ass off till the last secound to optimize there code so they can show without issues. Versus lying to your audience to gain there confidence.

So you are saying that its a requirement of the consumer to think what they saw was fake. And hence assume that they should fly to LA to witness what the real game is like?

Can you give me example of other great developers who act fake demos on stage during E3. Since its just a normal practice , right?

I never knew lying to your audience was so OK. :lol

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Here is a new idea.

If you dont think its ready then dont show it.

I wonder why we have live demo anyways.? Because every live demo has an inherent risk with it. BUt that risk is based on confidence in your product and your work.

Mixing people who work there ass off till the last secound to optimize there code so they can show without issues. Versus lying to your audience to gain there confidence.

So you are saying that its a requirement of the consumer to think what they saw was fake. And hence assume that they should fly to LA to witness what the real game is like?

Can you give me example of other great developers who act fake demos on stage during E3. Since its just a normal practive , right?

I never know lying to your audience was so OK. :lol

Get down with your bad self, man. Like I said, if they didn't let anyone play, talk about, and fucking film their playthroughs of the same fucking games online for hundreds of thousands if not millions of others across the world with access to the internet (more than those that would probably sit through any of the MS conference clips or the whole damned thing, I'm sure) to read and see, I'm sure you'd have some kind of real point. The impressions (relayed in numerous podcasts and writeups) and videos independently taken by hundreds of sources have far more reach than MS' own conference does.

 

[beast786]

Get down with your bad self, man. Like I said, if they didn't let anyone play, talk about, and fucking film their playthroughs of the same fucking games online for hundreds of thousands if not millions of others across the world with access to the internet (more than those that would probably sit through any of the MS conference clips or the whole damned thing, I'm sure) to read and see, I'm sure you'd have some kind of real point. The impressions (relayed in numerous podcasts and writeups) and videos independently taken by hundreds of sources have far more reach than MS' own conference does.

I was at E3. There were few times where it refuse to pick up the player when you stand infront of the camera. Again, it was few times. Not majority.

Thats what people like to sese from live demos. E3 Press confrencees are the most memoriable of all the E3 event. I have been to atleast 6 of them and I can gurantee you , that people remember more of what happend during conferencfes than on the floor.

So saying that it has little or know effect is B.S.

I asked you to present to me other great developers who choose to act fake demos during E3? THere is a reason people dont do that type of practice.

But please go on, defend the corporate for staging a demo and telling you it was all real time.

I guess there is no reason to discuss, since we both cant come to a common ground. I just find blunt lying on stage appauling and a hideous new way of fooling your audience.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I am not sure why are people even comparing Kinect to Move. There is no competition between Kinect and move.

MS is going after casual market for kinect as you can clearly see from Confrence. And that casual market is OWNED by wii.

As per sony conference was more for general variety with move including some casual games but not the main focus.

It seems sony knows it cant beat wii. BUt is giving its current base an option to also enjoy wiiHD titles.

Kinect it seems wants to challenge wii and the casual market.

There is no fight between Move and Kinect.

Well said.

 

[Fourth Stooge]

Hell hath no fury like a man-child after E3...

A videogame trade show attended by 45,000 people is a helluva place to try to hide a videogame. Apparently Micro$oft went for the strategy of "hide in plain sight" to cover their shame.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I was at E3. There were few times where it refuse to pick up the player when you stand infront of the camera. Again, it was few times. Not majority.

Thats what people like to sese from live demos. E3 Press confrencees are the most memoriable of all the E3 event. I have been to atleast 6 of them and I can gurantee you , that people remember more of what happend during conferencfes than on the floor.

So saying that it has little or know effect is B.S.

I asked you to present to me other great developers who choose to act fake demos during E3? THere is a reason people dont do that type of practice.

But please go on, defend the corporate for staging a demo and telling you it was all real time.

I guess there is no reason to discuss, since we both cant come to a common ground. I just find blunt lying on stage appauling and a hideous new way of fooling your audience.

Well, dude, you go right ahead and believe what you want. It's not like I've never been to E3 or trade shows or a press conference, man. I know that the corporations behind them spend serious money to have themselves and their product seen in the best possible light. They wouldn't spend the money if they couldn't ensure that for their messaging. They'll show you trailers and footage that beg no questions about authenticity if presented right. Those same people could also choose to not let anyone play those games anywhere on the floor nor in private meeting rooms or hotel rooms offsite. Does anyone's flag go off about that? Maybe, but because there's no way to compare personal experience with what they show you, there's little momentum to go on. So, something gobsmackingly amazing might be shown in trailer form at E3, like The Last Guardian. Are you questioning the veracity of the claims made by such a showing? Are you calling Team ICO and Sony full of shit for deceiving people because they offer no way to play or view this title otherwise? No, probably not. And why? Because you extend them credibility for whatever reason. You believe them to be honest despite it quite possibly not being real footage running on a PS3. Even given Sony's past with claiming certain CG trailers were realtime footage running off of a PS3. You extend them your trust. It's implicit in the way you decide not to get all up in arms about it online on some gaming forum.

Now, for MS, they also wouldn't commit a true act of deception if they were going to allow any of tens of thousands to freely film, demo, and talk about their own experiences with those same pieces of software and hardware. In isolation, you have a point about dishonesty if those staged demos were the only way someone could have tried and seen them played...the reality, however, is that they were available to any showgoer and those same folks can and did post their impressions and footage to the internet where millions of people (more than who watched the conference) read, listen, and view those unvarnished experiences and opinions and that is going to directly compare to what the MS conference showed. Would MS spend all of that money on a really long and boring conference to fool some people for a day if forever after they have hundreds and thousands of contradictory impressions and footage show them up? What did they gain from that except a PR disaster of exposed and true deception? So, you're free to believe as you do just as I take a pragmatic approach to the reality of the situation.

 

[beast786]

Well, dude, you go right ahead and believe what you want. It's not like I've never been to E3 or trade shows or a press conference, man. I know that the corporations behind them spend serious money to have themselves and their product seen in the best possible light. They wouldn't spend the money if they couldn't ensure that for their messaging. They'll show you trailers and footage that beg no questions about authenticity if presented right. Those same people could also choose to not let anyone play those games anywhere on the floor nor in private meeting rooms or hotel rooms offsite. Does anyone's flag go off about that? Maybe, but because there's no way to compare personal experience with what they show you, there's little momentum to go on. So, something gobsmackingly amazing might be shown in trailer form at E3, like The Last Guardian. Are you questioning the veracity of the claims made by such a showing? Are you calling Team ICO and Sony full of shit for deceiving people because they offer no way to play or view this title otherwise? No, probably not. And why? Because you extend them credibility for whatever reason. You believe them to be honest despite it quite possibly not being real footage running on a PS3. Even given Sony's past with claiming certain CG trailers were realtime footage running off of a PS3. You extend them your trust. It's implicit in the way you decide not to get all up in arms about it online on some gaming forum.

Now, for MS, they also wouldn't commit a true act of deception if they were going to allow any of tens of thousands to freely film, demo, and talk about their own experiences with those same pieces of software and hardware. In isolation, you have a point about dishonesty if those staged demos were the only way someone could have tried and seen them played...the reality, however, is that they were available to any showgoer and those same folks can and did post their impressions and footage to the internet where millions of people (more than who watched the conference) read, listen, and view those unvarnished experiences and opinions and that is going to directly compare to what the MS conference showed. Would MS spend all of that money on a really long and boring conference to fool some people for a day if forever after they have hundreds and thousands of contradictory impressions and footage show them up? What did they gain from that except a PR disaster of exposed and true deception? So, you're free to believe as you do just as I take a pragmatic approach to the reality of the situation.

Very well said.

But I guess we have different in opinions. To me lying is lying. But I can also see your point. There are times when I can see how an end can justify the means.

Like I said, there is no point in going back and fourth since we both clearly can see each other positions.

Nice discussing.