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Kinect now recognizes upper torso while sitting. Lower torso, not so much.

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
Alx said:
You'll have to define "work perfectly well sitting down".
There are probably things that it will do, and others that it won't. As mentioned before, full body tracking of a sitting person may be too difficult (and also kind of pointless).
But they clearly stated "if you want to control the front end, control the dashboard - seated is fine".
Being able to control the dashboard means that gesture detection/recognition is possible, it's not limited to voice recognition. And if it can handle gestures to browse the dashboard, it should be able to do similar things ingame.
That makes sense, but an RTS like Ruse should only require motions similar to those used to navigate the dashboard, and its developers decided against supporting Kinect because users would have to play "standing up".
The kinks may well get ironed out between now and the release, maybe even later, but for now it doesn't seem like seated gesture recognition is ready.
 

Shred0r

Banned
O shit, and now somones reporting that you would have to care what to wear in order to make Kinect to be able to interact with you "accurately".

http://www.gamerzines.com/xbox-360/news/kinect-long-skirt-incompatible.html

No skirts for ladies it seems.

Just read it over at N4G, there is a very informative comment regarding this issue or lets name it "requirement" to make the device funtion properly (i bet MS will try hard to bend it and sell it as a "feature" ^^):

Is this really surprising ?

This is an image of how Kinect sees you, a vague point cloud (and just below how the still image is transcribed by a computer to a 3D model). If there's a little distortion in the perception of the human form (like in this case because of a long dress), the software will not be able to translate your movements properly and your avatar will have strange seizures and jerking limbs like we've seen it countless times in the Ricochet videos.

That's also why it is difficult to make a game work while seated, the movements will have to be mapped to your arms and head (the only parts of your body that the software will be able to distinguish). Although it is not a problem for navigating a dashboard which requires only few simple arms gestures, it is way more difficult to do it with a game that requires numerous complicated control schemes.

3953083-1_0.jpg


I guess, this guy is in for some hyper-inaccurate Kinect treatment...

2lbbyp1.jpg


Shit, this pic will give me nightmares..
 

cgcg

Member
It's pretty obvious. Normally your arms will be above your sofa when raised and dashboard navigation doesn't require you to aim your arm all over the place like an RTS game would. It's lame that Rare's trying to mislead.
 
Shred0r said:
O shit, and now somones reporting that you would have to care what to wear in order to make Kinect to be able to interact with you "accurately".

To track legs, the camera needs to see legs. No shit, Sherlock.


Shred0r said:
Gabe N. won't be happy. Or has he already adopted a form that more likely resembles a human being regarding the silhouette?

Funnay.
 

Alphahawk

Member
So I went to the MS store and had an intresting experience. I was waiting to play the demo unit and they had some chairs, I sat down and watched someone else play the player veered off the course (it was Joyride) the MS employee noticing this looks around and tells me to stand up. Not only does Kinect not work when the player is seated but no one around them can sit down either...
 

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
Alphahawk said:
So I went to the MS store and had an intresting experience. I was waiting to play the demo unit and they had some chairs, I sat down and watched someone else play the player veered off the course (it was Joyride) the MS employee noticing this looks around and tells me to stand up. Not only does Kinect not work when the player is seated but no one around them can sit down either...
This can't be true. No way.

Need video evidence.
 
Shred0r said:
O shit, and now somones reporting that you would have to care what to wear in order to make Kinect to be able to interact with you "accurately".

http://www.gamerzines.com/xbox-360/news/kinect-long-skirt-incompatible.html

No skirts for ladies it seems.

Just read it over at N4G, there is a very informative comment regarding this issue or lets name it "requirement" to make the device funtion properly (i bet MS will try hard to bend it and sell it as a "feature" ^^):



3953083-1_0.jpg


I guess, this guy is in for some hyper-inaccurate Kinect treatment...

2lbbyp1.jpg


Shit, this pic will give me nightmares..

Why is the dwarf on top naked with his balls against the other dudes neck?
 

Jeels

Member
odhiex said:
Oh shiii.. now my mom cannot play Kinect :( she wear long dresses @ home

My mom wears traditional south asian clothing. I wonder if Kinect was built with international clothing in mind. :lol (My mom does play Wii Fit and Wii Sports, the first and only games she's ever played).

Also wtf at no one allowed to sit down. Lot's of people in my family have arthritis and can't be standing for long periods of time, but I guess they wouldn't be interested in Kinect anyway.
 

C.Dark.DN

Banned
Alphahawk said:
So I went to the MS store and had an intresting experience. I was waiting to play the demo unit and they had some chairs, I sat down and watched someone else play the player veered off the course (it was Joyride) the MS employee noticing this looks around and tells me to stand up. Not only does Kinect not work when the player is seated but no one around them can sit down either...
wow if true. so many small living rooms with people sitting around out there.
 
gwiz210 said:
Kinect will flop, calling it now.
I'd still wager it still sells more units than Move on hype alone. Like the Wii's launch line-up, people will buy it on the promise of the experience even if the reality is kinda crap.
 

ITA84

Member
Alphahawk said:
So I went to the MS store and had an intresting experience. I was waiting to play the demo unit and they had some chairs, I sat down and watched someone else play the player veered off the course (it was Joyride) the MS employee noticing this looks around and tells me to stand up. Not only does Kinect not work when the player is seated but no one around them can sit down either...
I wouldn't take this too seriously, it was probably just an overzealous (or clueless, or both) employee. It would confirm they're still covering up the issue though.
 

Alphahawk

Member
DeathNote said:
wow if true. so many small living rooms with people sitting around out there.

Yup also the space they had reserved for the Kinect demo (without any other objects) seemed alarmingly huge, like I-don't-think-I-could-play-this-in-my-dorm huge...

To be fair though there was a woman sitting to the side of me that didn't cause any problems, so if you're not in the camer's direct line of vision you should be allright, but yeah the tecnology seems less than ideal at present.
 

Alx

Member
Alphahawk said:
Yup also the space they had reserved for the Kinect demo (without any other objects) seemed alarmingly huge, like I-don't-think-I-could-play-this-in-my-dorm huge...

To be fair though there was a woman sitting to the side of me that didn't cause any problems, so if you're not in the camer's direct line of vision you should be allright, but yeah the tecnology seems less than ideal at present.

The room needed is in the official description of Kinect, you need to be 6 feet away from the camera to be entirely visible.
As for sitting persons disturbing the sensor, I can't see how it could happen. Don't forget that the sensor is based on distance, if you're further away than the main user, there is no reason that the game will confuse both of you, sitting or not.
 

Razgreez

Member
Alx said:
The room needed is in the official description of Kinect, you need to be 6 feet away from the camera to be entirely visible.
As for sitting persons disturbing the sensor, I can't see how it could happen. Don't forget that the sensor is based on distance, if you're further away than the main user, there is no reason that the game will confuse both of you, sitting or not.

Precision does not appear to be kinect's thing. I wouldnt brush such issues aside so easily
 

Alx

Member
There are all sorts of precisions involved... from the official data about the Primesense sensor and what has been displayed of the raw measurement, the depthmap precision is more than enough to separate people from the background (that's the least you would expect from it, actually), and it doesn't depend on their sitting or standing position.
The lack of precision usually observed is in the skeleton matching, but that's another level of processing, that is applied after the user segmentation.
 
Alphahawk said:
So I went to the MS store and had an intresting experience. I was waiting to play the demo unit and they had some chairs, I sat down and watched someone else play the player veered off the course (it was Joyride) the MS employee noticing this looks around and tells me to stand up. Not only does Kinect not work when the player is seated but no one around them can sit down either...

Just a clueless employee. You can see in this video that it works without issues when people are sitting directly behind the person playing or even just passing by (most noticeable at 3:26 when the camera rotates and shows that there are people sitting behind the kid who's been playing it the whole time). It also shoots down the "it can't track kids" nonsense.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
god microsoft. Say this please

'if you want to navigate your media from the couch, yes it will work perfectly.

then I might buy it. Vague statements = -1 sale.
 

Afrikan

Member
catfish said:
god microsoft. Say this please

'if you want to navigate your media from the couch, yes it will work perfectly.

then I might buy it. Vague statements = -1 sale.

wait.....are there people out there that are really going to spend $150, to mainly use it as a media remote???

I thought folks were joking....

catfish, what other reasons do you want to get it for?
 
catfish said:
god microsoft. Say this please

'if you want to navigate your media from the couch, yes it will work perfectly.

then I might buy it. Vague statements = -1 sale.

plus you want them to announce some good games for it, right?
 
catfish said:
god microsoft. Say this please

'if you want to navigate your media from the couch, yes it will work perfectly.

then I might buy it. Vague statements = -1 sale.


Do you mean voice recognition features?
Because I don't get anyway why waving the arm to go to the next menu should be an improvement over pressing left or right on the d-pad. Maybe I'm missing something...
 
catfish said:
god microsoft. Say this please

'if you want to navigate your media from the couch, yes it will work perfectly.

then I might buy it. Vague statements = -1 sale.

Surely that will still be a little vague, because they could presumably allow you to "navigate your media from the couch" using only your voice ("Xbox pause! Xbox fast forward! Xbox play!"), and this would satisfy your requirement.

Perhaps the statement should be more along the lines of:

"Kinect can reliably track the arm joints and head position of any seated user within view of the camera, provided that neither the content of the room nor the orientation of their body cause occlusion".

Then the discussion could finally move onto "Kinect can't detect you if you're sitting next to anybody" :D
 
Crakatak187 said:
A video demonstration is all that is needed to clear this mess up. Words mean nothing.

Fair enough. Let's see someone having their arm movements reliably detected whilst they sit in a typical chair. Like this one, for example:

octochair.jpg


I don't envy Microsoft's engineers the task of trying to compensate for even the most generic selection of furniture choices. Perhaps they'll be an official Kinnect Chair!
 
I know the accuracy of these kinds of comments is debatable, but these are the kinds of reports that should be expected. Kinect as a whole hinges on this person/object recognition, so some issues are to be expected. Just like I refuse to believe the Kinect is as good as some of the really overblown impression have said, there's no way it's as buggy as some of these reports suggest. I'll judge it when I finally get a chance to play it; which to be fair might be never.
 
Cesar said:
What does that have to do with sitting down? We really need a proper Kinect thread, this shouldn't be where just anything is posted. Anyway, as has been pointed out, that's likely due to the insane amount of flashes messing with the IR reading given that the game doesn't have that issue in any other video I've seen.

Funny (though not surprising) that Kinect threads are always bumped with a "still doesn't work" video, yet this week alone hundreds of Kinect vids have been uploaded to YouTube, most of which show it working a lot better. But those are typically ignored. It's a shame that only that video alone is the one with over a hundred thousands hits.
 
InaudibleWhispa said:
What does that have to do with sitting down? We really need a proper Kinect thread, this shouldn't be where just anything is posted. Anyway, as has been pointed out, that's likely due to the insane amount of flashes messing with the IR reading given that the game doesn't have that issue in any other video I've seen.

Funny (though not surprising) that Kinect threads are always bumped with a "still doesn't work" video, yet this week alone hundreds of Kinect vids have been uploaded to YouTube, most of which show it working a lot better. But those are typically ignored. It's a shame that only that video alone is the one with over a hundred thousands hits.
Videos of car crashes tend to get more hits then videos of cars stopping safely at a light. Nobody cares at all why this might work, it should work all the time if it's built right. Kinect is new tech so of course the only thing people care about is the possible failure; that's what will keep them from buying it.
 

Hugbot

Member
InaudibleWhispa said:
What does that have to do with sitting down? We really need a proper Kinect thread, this shouldn't be where just anything is posted. Anyway, as has been pointed out, that's likely due to the insane amount of flashes messing with the IR reading given that the game doesn't have that issue in any other video I've seen.

Funny (though not surprising) that Kinect threads are always bumped with a "still doesn't work" video, yet this week alone hundreds of Kinect vids have been uploaded to YouTube, most of which show it working a lot better. But those are typically ignored. It's a shame that only that video alone is the one with over a hundred thousands hits.
Strangely "expensive piece of consumer electronics not functioning as it should" is more interesting than "hey this thing works."

Judging by the number of times different issues have come up I'm still pretty skeptical, and definitely going to wait for in-the-wild reviews and a price drop before I think about picking it up.
 
BobTheFork said:
Videos of car crashes tend to get more hits then videos of cars stopping safely at a light. Nobody cares at all why this might work, it should work all the time if it's built right. Kinect is new tech so of course the only thing people care about is the possible failure; that's what will keep them from buying it.
Oh I fully understand. "Here is another video of Kinect working" isn't a good headline. I just thinks it's a shame. And I understand that it should work all of the time, and if it fails under normal conditions I get frustrated too. But under a barrage of flashes, or if something is blocking the cameras view like, say, a long dress, then I don't think there is anything they can do really.
 
Funnily enough I've just read this article, which is perhaps better suited to this thread

Kinect "gets confused" when its users sit on the floor - but most other issues caused by non-standing players have been ironed out.

That's according to Blitz Games chief Andrew Oliver, who told the latest issue of Edge Magazine that Microsoft's device previously had problems reading the movements of those slumped on the sofa.

However, he revealed that these had since been fixed via improved software libraries.


"It's a very clever system [Microsoft has] got," he said. "They look at the depth data, they work out fairly quickly if it's a human, and then they apply the algorithms to give you all the bones or whatever.

He added: "Okay, so one big thing that people were asking was whether you could sit on the sofa. The new libraries work, but there are certain things, like in our fitness game, where you sit on the floor and it gets confused."

However, Oliver suggested that most reading issues with Kinect can be fixed with "just a bit of image processing" on the development side.

"So they've given [studios] a generic piece, which is actually pretty impressive and covers most cases - certainly all the standing up, and now sitting down," he said. "[If developers] want to go further than that, then do it yourself in software."
 

JaggedSac

Member
InaudibleWhispa said:
Funnily enough I've just read this article, which is perhaps better suited to this thread

Well, that is great to hear. I was wondering if they were going to be using their depth map for couch sitting people or use RGB. Looks like they got it working with the depth map. Good news.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
JaggedSac said:
Here is a great interview about Kinect. There is talk about Kinect now being able to see sofas, developers using the GPU to do their own processing of the depth maps when necessary, etc.

Having to use the GPU... that does not sound good.
How much of the system processing is required to process kinnect after all?
 
Suikoguy said:
Having to use the GPU... that does not sound good.
How much of the system processing is required to process kinnect after all?

Varies from title to title. Ubisoft reckon that in certain games its about 1%. Microsoft (or someone in the know) had previously said about 15%.
 

Sydle

Member
JaggedSac said:
Here is a great interview about Kinect. There is talk about Kinect now being able to see sofas, developers using the GPU to do their own processing of the depth maps when necessary, etc.

Motion tracking is never completely clean – how good is Kinect?
It's a very clever system that they've got. They look at the depth data, they work out fairly quickly if it's a human, and then they apply their algorithms to give you all the bones or whatever. And if you're standing up in front of it, it kind of works, and now with the new software libraries, if you're sitting down on the sofa, it works. OK, so one big thing that people were questioning was whether you could sit on the sofa. The new libraries work, but there are certain things, like in our fitness game, where you sit on the floor where it kind of gets confused. But the most expensive motion capture systems you can get out there, probably Vicon, it's like: you can break those as well, and that's why you employ clean up animators to go an fill in all the little gaps and stuff like that. So, we don't have the luxury of having that offline clean up ability, we have to do it live.

But then, what is it that you're doing live? For example, in Biggest Loser the skeleton doesn't work when you're lying on the floor, but what we had to do was say look at it in another way. They've given us the software library, and it can't cover all cases, but we can look at the silhouette and see that the player is currently doing a press up. You can actually see that their bum's lagging, and they're bending their back. Then I would need to do a software algorithm that kind of works that out. It's just a bit of image processing. So they've given you a generic piece, which is actually pretty impressive and covers most cases - certainly all the standing up, and now sitting down. If you want to go further than that, then do it yourself in software.

There are floor moves in that game though, which Kinect might struggle with...
No. Because some will use skeletal tracking and if floor moves are important - which you can argue in that, they are - it's possible. We've proved it's possible - Kinect knows when the skeleton hits the floor. So what you have to do is jump to your own routines that work out what's now happening on the floor. It's absolutely possible. You just have to look at what your game design needs, and then work out what you have to write. These things are definitely coming, it just hasn't been done yet. Games programmers aren't used to image analysis, so that's what we're all learning, which is why we have a lot of programmers working in completely new areas. But interesting areas.

/thread

Shut it down.
 
If that guy thinks I'm going to roll around on the floor to play UFC he's wrong. If he seriously thinks 'core' games will want to do that. . .well. . what the hell.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Galvanise_ said:
Varies from title to title. Ubisoft reckon that in certain games its about 1%. Microsoft (or someone in the know) had previously said about 15%.

Correct, it varies on what the game needs. If it needs full body skeletal tracking, it is going to use more than if they are just using some voice recognition. Also, developers don't have to even use MS's solutions at all. Some of the launch titles are doing their own processing on the depth maps. So putting a certain amount of processing power on Kinect usage is too general.

Having to use the GPU... that does not sound good.

It does not have to use the GPU, but it is more suited to processing this sort of thing than a general purpose CPU.
 
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