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Kojima was too expensive apparently
- Thread starter Jindrax
- Start date
Sales numbers are available, yes.
But as was mentioned in this thread a few times already- That really isn't enough information. Infinite was considered a financial failure, as was Tomb Raider... How many copies did that game sell?
For a studio to get paid 10 years to make 2 games, the games would have to sell gangbusters... And apparently the development costs are out of control too.
Again, if they were making money off the man he wouldn't be looking for a job.
. Seemed like he's always been a perfectionist. I really wonder how much money he blew into the Fox Engine and MGS5 for Konami to finally say "enough's enough, get out" since didn't MGS4 take nearly as long a development time to do?
Most Nintendo games dont cost that much to make, and even there biggest games are low end of AAA, he would be a poor fit for them
MegamanXZero
Member
I can understand that Konami has a budget and certain milestones when developing games, but if these rumors are true about Kojima I still wouldn't think badly of him. The way Konami handled things in terms of kicking Kojima out, that's just disrespectful and overshadows Kojima's way of doing things. He's a perfectionist, so what?
This was supposed to be the last game of a big series and it's understandable that Kojima wanted it to be perfect and how he imagines the final game of his legacy would be.
Firing him after MGSV would've been enough, but removing his name associated with the games he has produced is just one step too far. You got rid of him after all, why kick him into the ground?
This was supposed to be the last game of a big series and it's understandable that Kojima wanted it to be perfect and how he imagines the final game of his legacy would be.
Firing him after MGSV would've been enough, but removing his name associated with the games he has produced is just one step too far. You got rid of him after all, why kick him into the ground?
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
Business wise, I agree 100% with Konami. Konami doesn't care about console gaming anymore and is simply moving away from it completely so why keep Kojima, his high salary, never ending expenses and delays?
In the end, it was simply time for Konami and Kojima to go their separate ways.
In the end, it was simply time for Konami and Kojima to go their separate ways.
Imru al-Qays
Banned
Wouldn't surprise me if they sold the engine to someone even if they don't go bankrupt. No point in holding on to a state of the art game development engine if you basically don't develop games.
Retail video games aren't really their main business anymore though.
Mobile is the flagship, and even beyond that, they run lots of businesses that are unrelated to video games like pachinko machines and health clubs.
The cost base on Metal Gear is also very high compared to their other projects, especially now.
If they thought that Metal Gear was critical to their business operations, they wouldn't be doing this, so they obviously don't.
It would. I do think the motorcycle and puma's are a bit much but I can't fault them for making clothes and toys. The MGS community eats that shit up.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Last gen is dead for new big AAA games.
Check any big AAA that game came out this year and you will see that .
I would be surprised if he turned to Kickstarter. Unless he gets a Star Citizen style turnout then I don't think he could execute on any sort of vision with the 4-5 million dollars you'd expect from KS.
For Konami I imagine that wasn't exactly something they wanted to hear either. Almost certainly IF they would have kept funding Kojima it's doubtful they would have let him make anything else unless it was assumed he would continue MGS at the same time. Highly doubtful they were willing to risk budgets of the size Kojima requires on a new IP.
I don't know for sure, but an educated guess on MGS4's profit (profit = revenue - cost) based on public sales figures would be anywhere between $50m - $100m.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Not surprising in the slightest.
Actually him not getting a profit share is pretty surprising, considering his name has been on the series boxes for so long.
Actually him not getting a profit share is pretty surprising, considering his name has been on the series boxes for so long.
Not being a "perfectionist" === shitting it out?Konami exec: "Kojima why aren't you shitting out this game?"
Kojima: "I want it to be the best product imaginable."
Konami exec:
RustyNails
Member
So I guess we can assume they will run MGS IP to the ground? Fuck
Is it possible Kojima pulled a "you guys are nobodies without me" line during their falling out so Konami are trying to 1up him?
For shareholders at least.So, Kojima is now bad guy?
My guess is that Kojima's expense requires CoD/GTA sales to recover costs and make a healthy profit and that's not happening.
They already said they'll release more MGS titles after MGSV.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
What happens if he gets to the end of those 3 years and uses up that X million without having a finished product? While I'm sure it's possible to reign him in, I don't know if it's as easy as some people in this thread may think.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
When you work with Kojima your mind, body, and soul belongs to him. It is a worthy sacrafice.
I have no clue whatsoever.
AstroNut325
Member
We need more people like Kojima, not less.
TheJollyCorner
Member
Yeeeeeah... I know a lot of people are excited to see "who will pick Kojima up?!" after he's officially gone from Konami, but I can't really see any of the 'big boys' (MS, Sony, Nintendo) allowing Kojima to run fast & loose with a big budget production if stories like these are accurate.
Sony has tolerated Ueda and his design-eccentric ways (mostly referencing TLG), but his dev teams are small.
Can Kojima remember how to handle a tight, restrained development without Konami's previous 'golden ticket' philosophy? It'll be interesting to see.
Sony has tolerated Ueda and his design-eccentric ways (mostly referencing TLG), but his dev teams are small.
Can Kojima remember how to handle a tight, restrained development without Konami's previous 'golden ticket' philosophy? It'll be interesting to see.
Kojima's a perfectionist. Konami is a Japanese company. Makes sense.
I'm very glad that he worked with them for to make Metal Gear, but considering all the tech advances, they probably should've realized Koji was going to want to go over the top with his final title (as he does with literally everything) and reign him in if necessary, which they clearly did not do (at least, effectively). I know everyone says "Fuck Konami", and for the part of them that took out his name of the game and KojiPro, yeah, absolutely. But this is more of a business decision for them. Kojima is better of being his own boss, this much is clear. I hope he goes on to do fantastic things with another studio, or, even better start his own and be independent, like Platinum.
Hell, this is like the best example I can think of of video game companies needing to rethink their development structure. People have talked Hollywood style, and honestly, this whole Kojima affair seems like a great argument for it.
I'm very glad that he worked with them for to make Metal Gear, but considering all the tech advances, they probably should've realized Koji was going to want to go over the top with his final title (as he does with literally everything) and reign him in if necessary, which they clearly did not do (at least, effectively). I know everyone says "Fuck Konami", and for the part of them that took out his name of the game and KojiPro, yeah, absolutely. But this is more of a business decision for them. Kojima is better of being his own boss, this much is clear. I hope he goes on to do fantastic things with another studio, or, even better start his own and be independent, like Platinum.
Hell, this is like the best example I can think of of video game companies needing to rethink their development structure. People have talked Hollywood style, and honestly, this whole Kojima affair seems like a great argument for it.
people like to act that he made the game all by him self
He does everything, Kojima is the one who makes his team work, without him there probably wouldn't be a MGSV or at least not as revolutionary as TPP looks because as we all have seen as talented as his team is they can't do anything without their leader, just look at Metal Gear Rising and therefore it's his game and he deserves all the credit he gets.
gundamkyoukai
Member
No we don't .
I like Kojima but that sort of stuff can cost hundreds of people there jobs.
hahahahahaha
Again it's possible. He's given us ZOE which wasn't a big budget production and didn't he have a hand in Golden Sun as well?
He's stated for a long time he's been wanting to move away from MGS. I could actually see him doing a smaller scale game if anything.
Yup. Directors deserve unlimited company money and development time so they can make the perfect game, otherwise it's shit.
Unfortjnately, this isn't how it actually works in the real world. Money isn't infinite. Disney sends an executive producer to keep JJ Abrams and every facet of Star Wars Eoisode 7 on a leash, so they don't get super wasteful, waste time and burn money they don't want to be burning. This is how big projects are managed, because time is valuable, money is finite, and there is an opportunity cost to devoting time on 10 year project A vs 2 year projects B and C that are more profitable and still good. There are diminishing returns in quality/dollar spent, and it tends to dive once you've reached the "bush textures need to be perfect" stage.
SkylineRKR
Member
I figure MGS doesn't make Konami that much. I think Ryan Payton said that MGS4 would have to debut with 1 million sales on day one in order to be succesful. He said he was misquoted later on, but seeing the scope of the project I wouldn't be surprised if it had to. It may have totaled 6 million, but how many of those were out of the bargain bin? MGS4 was no doubt making money, but probably not as much as lower risk, lower dev time, cheaper projects do.
I figure that with all the Fox engine stuff, Kiefer, Gregson and all that MGSV is an extremely expensive project. Perhaps one of the most expensive games out there. Its also a series that rears its head like once in many years (MGS4 happened 7 years ago). The fate of Konami does not depend on this franchise, such a thing almost cannot be.
I figure that with all the Fox engine stuff, Kiefer, Gregson and all that MGSV is an extremely expensive project. Perhaps one of the most expensive games out there. Its also a series that rears its head like once in many years (MGS4 happened 7 years ago). The fate of Konami does not depend on this franchise, such a thing almost cannot be.
This is it. You need an absolutely massive, mainstream audience for such insanely expensive projects, to the point that 5-6 million copies sold doesn't cut it. It's not enough to be a good game maker, you also need to be great at planning and optimizing resources.
JadedWriter
Member
I'm imagining Konami wanted this game finished or at the very least out a good amount of time ago for maximum profit, not tied up in a long development cycle costing more money. I would like to think that either way the game is going to make money. With business people being like, "But I want the money now."
Sectorseven
Member
Is he really though? I've seen him take lots of shortcuts, like codec conversations between people in the same room, or enemy patrols who all wear balaclavas so they don't have to design and animate faces.
Could have saved a bit of coin by hiring hayter instead of keifer
On one hand it sucks that the desire to make a polished product is means to be fired these days. But at the same time sometimes you can't be the perfectionist you are because it doesn't make business sense. Its finding a balance. And it seems kojima couldn't
On one hand it sucks that the desire to make a polished product is means to be fired these days. But at the same time sometimes you can't be the perfectionist you are because it doesn't make business sense. Its finding a balance. And it seems kojima couldn't
Maybe we would know if Konami actually let him work on something new.
It will probably be a good change of pace for him to work on something brand new and less demanding.
eso76
Member
We'll see about that.
I mean, from a gamer's perspective, of course you'd think so.
From a business perspective though, I can understand Konami thinking that cutting a few corners (and a few millions in polishing) wouldn't have impacted sales in a significant way.
There's not much you can do.
Companies aren't willing to give up on profits.
Designers are not willing to give up on their vision.
Ultimately though, it's often the designers who succumb. There's no place for them in today's AAA market. They don't get paid to produce some work of art or make their vision come true, they are supposed to make money.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
You think people have been joking with that? Maybe some, but I'm sure that some people want him to go to KS if it means that he won't go to Sony.
The point is: Do they get fixed payment when MGSV ships? I doubt all of them got the same deal as Kojima did, which means that if people boycott the game, the rest of developers will suffer.
EDIT: Also let me get this on record: If MGSV does terribly, what does that say to publishers who are thinking on hiring him? Food for thought.
Ninja Scooter
Member
IF these allegations are true, then I can see why Konami would have cut him loose. Kojima is talented, and his games and name sell, but at some point he could become more trouble than he's worth, especially for a company that is seemingly trying to get out of AAA gaming (and the costs that go along with it) anyway. Like, whatever money Kojima's games bring in, Konami's probably thinking "We could try and put that money elsewhere and make that much with more mobile games or pachinko games at a fraction of the investment."
Some of the stuff being alleged here is pretty bad. Like, if this were, say, Randy Pitchford being accused of some of this stuff, people would trash him for incompetence and mismanagement and side with the publisher, but it seems like Kojima really plays up his eccentric genius image and can sort of slide on a lot of it.
Kojima will be fine, and quite frankly, his fans should be happy that Konami is cutting him loose if they really aren't all that interested in the kind of games he makes anymore. Let him go somewhere that believes more in his vision rather than clashing with it. I doubt we'll see him on Kickstarter. He's still got far too much clout for that. He's going t ship a (probably) successful AAA game in 2015. He is probably much more likely IMO to get a similar deal to what Mikami/Tango got with Bethesda.
Some of the stuff being alleged here is pretty bad. Like, if this were, say, Randy Pitchford being accused of some of this stuff, people would trash him for incompetence and mismanagement and side with the publisher, but it seems like Kojima really plays up his eccentric genius image and can sort of slide on a lot of it.
Kojima will be fine, and quite frankly, his fans should be happy that Konami is cutting him loose if they really aren't all that interested in the kind of games he makes anymore. Let him go somewhere that believes more in his vision rather than clashing with it. I doubt we'll see him on Kickstarter. He's still got far too much clout for that. He's going t ship a (probably) successful AAA game in 2015. He is probably much more likely IMO to get a similar deal to what Mikami/Tango got with Bethesda.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I have to wonder how much Miyamoto wastes on his artistic deviations, or if he wastes money at all.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Aren't limits known as / thought of as one of the greatest sources of inspiration / success?
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Kojima helps out with the creation of his games from top to bottom. Randy just talks and talks and......well yeah.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Because Kojima has an excellent track record. Pitchford has Aliens: CM. EDIT: Also what ElBoxy said.
Fuck the business perspective, especially when it comes to Konami. Look at what they did to Silent Hill and the Hudson IPs.
Kojima would have had to leave either way considering the direction the company is going. Haven't most of Konami's other prominent devs already left?
On top of that, Nintendo's modus operandi is to come up with a fun gameplay idea and then build everything else around that. Kojima's more known for his stories, heavy use of cutscenes, high production values, and absurd details. Metal Gear Solid and Zone of the Enders have strong gameplay, but some of Kojima's earlier titles (Snatcher and Policenauts) have fairly minimal gameplay.
Anything can happen, I guess, but Kojima and Nintendo seem like oil and water.