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Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn refuses to say he would defend NATO ally being attacked.

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Capitalism works.


Yeah, and so does my 1975 Ford Cortina. And like my Ford Cortina just because it works doesn't mean it won't cause irreparable damage to the environment and potentially kill people in a crash if I keep driving it without changing its parts. Liberalism is like driving my Ford Cortina constantly over the legal speed limit and never getting my tyres checked.
 

kirblar

Member
Yeah, and so does my 1975 Ford Cortina. And like my Ford Cortina just because it works doesn't mean it won't cause irreparable damage to the environment and potentially kill people in a crash if I keep driving it without changing its parts. Liberalism is like driving my Ford Cortina constantly over the legal speed limit and never getting my tyres checked.
That's still better than mass genocide and starvation every time people try the other option.
 
That's still better than mass genocide and starvation every time people try the other option.


What are you on about? The other option is 60-70s UK where people went to university for free, social housing was being rapidly built to help people, wages were high, social cohesion was good and corporate profits were low. (guess which point might have led to this being considered a bad point in modern history.)
 

kirblar

Member
What are you on about? The other option is 60-70s UK where people went to university for free, social housing was being rapidly built to help people, wages were high, social cohesion was good and corporate profits were low. (guess which point might have led to this being considered a bad point in modern history.)
Yes.

That was capitalism.
 
What is with all this NATO hate recently? I consider myself a pacifist too, but come on, NATO is important.

Anyway, the big power of NATO is in its threat, not necessarily its action. So even if in your heart you wanted to avoid war as much as possible, I don't see any benefit in undermining the threat. That's just silly.
 

Joezie

Member
What is with all this NATO hate recently?

US is bad
NATO is led by the US

Therefore NATO is bad....or at least this is what I've been able to distill from most people tip toing that line(Not necessarily on GAF. Mostly other sites).

It's either that or "It's Insert Current Year here, NATO is a relic".
 

pigeon

Banned
What is with all this NATO hate recently? I consider myself a pacifist too, but come on, NATO is important.

Anyway, the big power of NATO is in its threat, not necessarily its action. So even if in your heart you wanted to avoid war as much as possible, I don't see any benefit in undermining the threat. That's just silly.

Putin hates NATO, and Putin controls many agencies that can be used to disseminate and promote ideas he wants people to think about.
 

Kathian

Banned
You don't really get a choice. You are obliged to. What he should be saying is if he wishes to leave the alliance and is against alliances.

But whilst a member he should support action even if he is opposed to membership.

Honestly he's not a fanatic. He's just dim.
 
that is a bold strategy cotton

seriously, WTF is up with the Far-Left and the Far-Right drinking Putin's Kool-Aid lately?

seriously WTF?

Trump, Corbyn, Stein, Le Pen ect

I'm convinced that Corbyn wanted Brexit to win, because that certainly weakens Europe and strengthens Russia
 
Dunno why people are upset about this. Corbyn would not do anything because he will never, ever be Prime minster. I'm sure he knows this privately and probably embraces it.
 

kirblar

Member
Dunno why people are upset about this. Corbyn would not do anything because he will never, ever be Prime minster. I'm sure he knows this privately and probably embraces it.
He refused to step down after a no-confidence vote.

The issue isn't him being a protest figure eternally doomed to the outside, it's him dooming the party with him.
 
He refused to step down after a no-confidence vote.

The issue isn't him being a protest figure eternally doomed to the outside, it's him dooming the party with him.

He doesn't consider what he is doing as dooming the party and neither do the loons that vote for him.

At this point they can't be reasoned with. Just ignored.

Likewise it's pointless asking corybn about anything that doesn't involve baying from the backbenches as the leader of the party with the 3rd most MPs in parliament. Cus thats The only future for corybnism.
 

pa22word

Member
What is with all this NATO hate recently? I consider myself a pacifist too, but come on, NATO is important.

Everyone's got something to gripe about with it recently.

Europe's irritated over Afghanistan giving everyone a 15 year headache, US is irritated over getting drug into Libya by a France and UK that promptly bailed once the going got tough, Russia being an ass is getting everyone edgy, Turkey going through madness, etc. Also, European countries not footing the full bill is a really sore spot for the US public, while US unilateralism in Iraq soured public opinion in most of the other member states.

Just a tense time. Doesn't help that everyone's economy is performing like hot ass at the moment.
 
Brits who oppose the Tories should simply abandon the Labour Party and just vote Lib-Dem

Corbyn has gone down the Putin path; for sure he is a loser in waiting in the next election
 

Xe4

Banned
Neoiberal is a definition of the times we are in. This period in Western countries will go down in the history books as neoliberal, I can't see it any other way? It's an economic and political period that replicates 19th century liberalist attitudes to roles of the individual, capital and the state.
No, it doesn't. The 19th century was far more economically conservative than even the most conservative liberals advocate. To say they were simmilar is rediculous. The truth is the US left is the most progressive it has been sins the 1930s, and perhaps more.

The large difference is since WWII THE US has been far more militaristic than it has ever been, bit that was unavoidable after what happened to Europ someone needed to fill the power vacuum.
 

Dead Man

Member
No one calls themselves neolberals. It is a slur to insult liberals you disagree with. It has a dozen definitions and is useless outside of discussing the politics of 1980's Chile.

It's a pretty well agreed upon term everywhere except America, really. The conflation of the left with liberalism is pretty much American, the rest of the world doesn't have it, so it creates confusion when people use it in a European sense. Not sure where you are from, but the discussion previous to the post I've quoted feels like that sort of miscommunication.

Edit: Nobody calls themselves neocons either, but everyone agrees it has descriptive value. Well, I presume they do, I am open to being corrected.
 

kmag

Member
What are you on about? The other option is 60-70s UK where people went to university for free, social housing was being rapidly built to help people, wages were high, social cohesion was good and corporate profits were low. (guess which point might have led to this being considered a bad point in modern history.)

It was also a time during which the above coupled with inadequate growth in domestic production led to the dead not getting buried, trash piling up on the streets, an inability to power the country adequately leading to a 4 day work week.The work force continually was on strike mostly for what seem like petty grievances now. Inflation was running in the high 20% while wage inflation was capped.

Halcyon days, my friend. Halcyon days.
 
Who even really knows what a Corbyn government's (lol) policies would be. He - as leader of the Labour party - has gone on rallies to campaign against his own party's policies.

Plus everyone would need two jobs to fill all the ministries, lest there be mergers and job losses. God, it's like Cameron's Britain all over again!
 
NATO is basically the US and its bully boys. So, yeah, would need a decent pretext to get involved. This isn't even news though, Corbyn wants us to leave NATO. As do I.
 

Maledict

Member
It's a pretty well agreed upon term everywhere except America, really. The conflation of the left with liberalism is pretty much American, the rest of the world doesn't have it, so it creates confusion when people use it in a European sense. Not sure where you are from, but the discussion previous to the post I've quoted feels like that sort of miscommunication.

Edit: Nobody calls themselves neocons either, but everyone agrees it has descriptive value. Well, I presume they do, I am open to being corrected.

No it isn't. Crab did a fantastic post outlining it, but the term literally has no meaning outside of being used as an insult by the left against the centre left. It meant exactly the opposite of what some people think it means when created, and has been bandied around so much now it's laughable. Like 'Blairite', its become the bogeyman.
 
It's quite worrying that so many people don't take Russia seriously and believe they would never invade a NATO member if they had a chance.

Idiots like this one just give them reasons. Newsflash, your pacifism ain't stopping Russian tanks.
 
It was also a time during which the above coupled with inadequate growth in domestic production led to the dead not getting buried, trash piling up on the streets, an inability to power the country adequately leading to a 4 day work week.The work force continually was on strike mostly for what seem like petty grievances now. Inflation was running in the high 20% while wage inflation was capped.

Halcyon days, my friend. Halcyon days.


It was called the winter of discontent. Right now, we've probably had 6 years of general malaise since the financial crisis with riots, deaths of elderly, poor and disabled due to restrictions to welfare, poor treatment of workers and out of control rent, rail, electric and gas prices.
 

Maledict

Member
It was called the winter of discontent. Right now, we've probably had 6 years of general malaise since the financial crisis with riots, deaths of elderly, poor and disabled due to restrictions to welfare, poor treatment of workers and out of control rent, rail, electric and gas prices.

And yet by a large number of measures people are better off. Better access to education, better quality of healthcare, lower numbers of children in poverty, more equality of opportunity and outcome. There are many things wrong with our country currently, but let's not pretend things were fab in the 60s and 70s. Hell, there's a reason the generation that grew up through those years still votes Conservative in large numbers.
 

Baybars

Banned
It could be worse. Imagine if Corbyn was the leader of United States during the cold war. Imagine that!

Labour is finished so corbyn can say what he likes.
 
And yet by a large number of measures people are better off. Better access to education, better quality of healthcare, lower numbers of children in poverty, more equality of opportunity and outcome. There are many things wrong with our country currently, but let's not pretend things were fab in the 60s and 70s. Hell, there's a reason the generation that grew up through those years still votes Conservative in large numbers.

It's pretty easy to see the actual, general opinion of the 70's - when was the last time an actually Left wing leader was elected?

Socialism - so good, they never went back.
 
Ah the old it's the wests fault for antangising Russia to justify Russian military agreesion never gets old.

Russia is responsible for itself. It makes those choices and could easily not invade. It's Russia's problem that they are obsessed with the past and still have that paranoia from stalins days. NATO is not going to invade Russia and would not even benefit from a war or invasion.

Countries near russian are fucking scared because they can't even act independently by joining international organisations such as nato or the eu without Russia starting some shit, can you blame them wanting protection?

Georgia invaded
Crimea stolen
Ukraine indirectly invaded
Who's next?
 

kmag

Member
It was called the winter of discontent. Right now, we've probably had 6 years of general malaise since the financial crisis with riots, deaths of elderly, poor and disabled due to restrictions to welfare, poor treatment of workers and out of control rent, rail, electric and gas prices.

It lasted a lot longer than the winter 1978. It basically built up the entire way through the 70's. The breakdown of the Heath and Wilson governments, the oil crisis in 73 and the three day week, the calm bought by the social contract which kept wages rising well below inflation fueled resentment which exploded in 1978. Inflation was so high during the 70's we had to go cap in hand to those lovely chaps in the IMF in 76 for a multi-billion pound loan to literally keep the lights on.

If it wasn't for the the lucky find of North Sea Oil (which was largely squandered paying for rising national debt and for welfare payments due the unemployment level which had risen from 1.5% at the start of the 70's to 5.5% by the Callagan government to 12.5% by Thatcher) we'd have been completely fucked.
 

hodgy100

Member
Jesus christ the venom in here.

This isnt a good look for corbyn. He should've at least conceded that if diplomatic relations failed he would defend NATO allies. I get that he's trying to show that he would first exhaust all other avenues, but he really jsut needed to get to the point and have a clear view on this :/

THere are a bunch of problems surrounding the labour party right now. Corbyn gets voted again, he won't win the election and potentially the party splits. Smith wins he won't win the election either :/ literally stuck between a rock and a hard place here.
 
Jesus christ the venom in here.

This isnt a good look for corbyn. He should've at least conceded that if diplomatic relations failed he would defend NATO allies. I get that he's trying to show that he would first exhaust all other avenues, but he really jsut needed to get to the point and have a clear view on this :/

The crazy thing is that saying "We will defend an invaded ally" isn't even mutually exclusive with "We'll exhaust all other channels" because by the time it's gotten to the point where a country has been invaded, bullets have already started being fired. At that point, you can't not take a side, because not defending your ally is a de facto sign of support to the person invading them.

Interesting fact: Article 5 explicitly applies only in North America and Europe. Which makes sense you say - that's where all the members are! But it's also the reason why we got no help during the Falklands. Similarly, if North Korea (Or, hell, Japan) attacked Okinawa, Article 5 couldn't be invoked.
 

hodgy100

Member
The crazy thing is that saying "We will defend an invaded ally" isn't even mutually exclusive with "We'll exhaust all other channels" because by the time it's gotten to the point where a country has been invaded, bullets have already started being fired. At that point, you can't not take a side, because not defending your ally is a de facto sign of support to the person invading them.

Yeah :/ Seems he didn't realise that. UK politics stress the fuck out of me. I see my peers all around me feeling the pinch from our current government policies. Yet the opposition is in a mess. I dont know where to look right now. I'm saying this as someone who is very enthusiastic towards corbyn, but he just didn't do anything.
 

Goodlife

Member
Ah the old it's the wests fault for antangising Russia to justify Russian military agreesion never gets old.

Russia is responsible for itself. It makes those choices and could easily not invade. It's Russia's problem that they are obsessed with the past and still have that paranoia from stalins days. NATO is not going to invade Russia and would not even benefit from a war or invasion.

Countries near russian are fucking scared because they can't even act independently by joining international organisations such as nato or the eu without Russia starting some shit, can you blame them wanting protection?

Georgia invaded
Crimea stolen
Ukraine indirectly invaded
Who's next?

I know it's in the past, but the Soviets put a couple of missiles close to America, WW3 nearly started.

I can understand why Russia is nervous of NATO expansion
 
I know it's in the past, but the Soviets put a couple of missiles close to America, WW3 nearly started.

I can understand why Russia is nervous of NATO expansion

But NATO isn't some empire. Countries have to choose to join. That Poland et al joined at the first opportunity they had tells you everything you need to know about how nervous those countries were, and it ain't the US they're nervous about.
 

Goodlife

Member
But NATO isn't some empire. Countries have to choose to join. That Poland et al joined at the first opportunity they had tells you everything you need to know about how nervous those countries were, and it ain't the US they're nervous about.

Depends on your pov I guess

There is a lot of shit written about Russian in the West.
You can bet there is a lot of shit written about the West in Russia.
You say countries "choose to join", Russian will probably have a very different view on that
 
It's pretty easy to see the actual, general opinion of the 70's - when was the last time an actually Left wing leader was elected?

Socialism - so good, they never went back.

How are education and healthcare in the UK not socialist institutions?

There's lots of things run publicly that people enjoy, like the state school system and health service. And lots of things run privately that people don't, like the energy companies, and other things tendered out to private contract that people hate, like rail networks and fucking G4S. The issue is does voting for a particular political party do anything to change the trajectory we are on? The Tories are finding it difficult to change anything about health and education, would a left-wing party be able to reign in energy companies or even stop giving contracts to G4S because they keep losing prisoners and generally fucking up.

This to me is why people keep talking about "neoliberalism". It's as though neither traditional labour or traditional conservatives are getting anything out of voting. We're going one way and both parties can tinker with the edges but that's it.
 
it might just be me, but "a person from a notoriously repressive and autocratic country will have a different view from Posters From The West on a forum that is likely being monitored by said country" isn't a particularly compelling counter to a "russia is bad"
 
Depends on your pov I guess

There is a lot of shit written about Russian in the West.
You can bet there is a lot of shit written about the West in Russia.
You say countries "choose to join", Russian will probably have a very different view on that


Russia can 'think' what they like, Nato is an opt-in agreement. Some of those countries had a long period of russification, they rejected it because Russian hegemony is wank.
 

Orbis

Member
THere are a bunch of problems surrounding the labour party right now. Corbyn gets voted again, he won't win the election and potentially the party splits. Smith wins he won't win the election either :/ literally stuck between a rock and a hard place here.
Yep. It's sad that it has reached this, but it's very unlikely I'll vote Labour at the next election. It's a small reassurance that Theresa May became Tory leader as she was probably the least bad option to be PM for the next 9 years. Hopefully we have an electable opposition by then.
 
Depends on your pov I guess

There is a lot of shit written about Russian in the West.
You can bet there is a lot of shit written about the West in Russia.
You say countries "choose to join", Russian will probably have a very different view on that

What is this truth is in the middle nonsense?
 
Depends on your pov I guess

There is a lot of shit written about Russian in the West.
You can bet there is a lot of shit written about the West in Russia.
You say countries "choose to join", Russian will probably have a very different view on that

The existing members of NATO had very little to gain, geopolitically, from accepting the Eastern bloc into the treaty other than keeping them out of Russia's hands. Which suggests that they might have been in Russia's hands (as opposed to being non-aligned countries).

How are education and healthcare in the UK not socialist institutions?

There's lots of things run publicly that people enjoy, like the state school system and health service. And lots of things run privately that people don't, like the energy companies, and other things tendered out to private contract that people hate, like rail networks and fucking G4S. The issue is does voting for a particular political party do anything to change the trajectory we are on? The Tories are finding it difficult to change anything about health and education, would a left-wing party be able to reign in energy companies or even stop giving contracts to G4S because they keep losing prisoners and generally fucking up.

Schools and the NHS are very popular and all major parties support them. It's the other bits, the bits that have been left behind, that people didn't support (and, given we still have the NHS and still have nationally funded schools, I assume it's those other bits that you're pining fort). That's why, when they could have voted for Michael Foot in 83 they didn't, when they could have voted for Kinnock in 87 they didn't, when they could have voted for Kinnock (again) in 92 they didn't. The only time the people have elected a PM who wasn't a Tory since the 70's was Tony Blair, who had to get up on stage and say "GUYS, WE'RE CUTTING THAT NATIONALISING SHIT OUT, OK?" before they'd vote for him. He turned into a messianic warmonger and left, and since then it's back to business as usual - the boys in blue for us, please! We had 5 years of coalition cuts and austerity and, given the opportunity to vote for a softish-left candidate in Miliband, the people said "Nope, we want the Tories - and this time, sack off the Lib Dems, too". I mean, OK, FPTP makes this caricature more complicated than
I'm making out, but not dramatically so. The upshot is that people have had plenty of opportunity to move the country back towards the sort of society we had in the 70's - ie, a shit one - and they'd opted not to each and every time.

This to me is why people keep talking about "neoliberalism". It's as though neither traditional labour or traditional conservatives are getting anything out of voting. We're going one way and both parties can tinker with the edges but that's it.

Well, it's called the center ground. The people don't like Kinnock (let alone Foot), and they don't like Howard either. We had our big ideological battle in the 70's, and the glorious Hegelian dialectic result was that we have a largely pro-market government who feeds and heals people without the need for direct payment. It is, to some extent, a result of taking popular parts of both the left and the right and melding them together. Blair was the epitome of that, with Cameron being a descendent who dragged the Tories to the left socially somewhat. We are where we are because people like it, and they don't want another big ideological war.
 
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