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she's going to have a lot of trouble with the lords now she's set fire to the 2015 manifesto and the salisbury convention doesn't apply

 

[BKK]

There's an element of that but most of it is that he was directly complicit in lying to justify the war in Iraq.

That's certainly an issue with some on the left. I always found his religiosity to be an issue in a mainly irreligious country.

she's going to have a lot of trouble with the lords now she's set fire to the 2015 manifesto and the salisbury convention doesn't apply

Unelected Lords versus democratic referendum? There's only going to be one winner there. About time that there was proper Lords reform anyway. Also, the referendum was in the manifesto, so legislation resulting from the result of that should probably be considered to fall under the Salisbury convention.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

I'm confused. Aren't neoliberal views more in line with Tory policies then labour policies?
Why's everyone using that term wrong?

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm confused. Aren't neoliberal views more in line with Tory policies then labour policies?
Why's everyone using that term wrong?

I bet I could define neoliberal to encompass basically any party in the world, from Labour to Zanu-PF.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Her majority is razor thin and she just pissed off most of the modernist Cameroon wing. Most of them are quiet for now but they won't be forever.

But her de facto majority is significantly larger due to the collapse of the opposition. If you can find an issue that unites the PLP in opposition then she will need to whip hard - but how many of those are there?

 

[Nicktendo86]

Unelected Lords versus democratic referendum? There's only going to be one winner there. About time that there was proper Lords reform anyway. Also, the referendum was in the manifesto, so legislation resulting from the result of that should probably be considered to fall under the Salisbury convention.

I don't mean to speak for Empty but I assume they were talking more about pushing things like grammar schools through rather than the EU stuff.

Regarding Brexit though I can't really see it having much trouble getting through Parliament. Triggering Article 50 is what will put us on the path of leaving, it clearly states that once formal notification of wanting to leave has been received a period of negotiation will begin for the exit terms and at the conclusion of that the treaties will no longer apply and thus we will no longer be in the EU, repealing the 1972 communities act isn't really necessary to leave.

However, they want to do that so that they can fold all EU law into British law and make the exit transition a smooth process. If the commons and or the lords vote against the great repeal act they will not be stopping Brexit, they will just make the exit worse and that I think is the context that the government will frame it.

This is all assuming of course that the government win the judicial review on whether or not they have the power to trigger Art 50 themselves without a commons vote which, after reading the arguments, I really can't see them lose.

Anyway this is all off topic now, sorry!

Edit:

But her de facto majority is significantly larger due to the collapse of the opposition. If you can find an issue that unites the PLP in opposition then she will need to whip hard - but how many of those are there?

I also read after the conference that they have a very informal agreement with the DUP which has effectively increased their majority to 32.

 

[darkace]

I'm confused. Aren't neoliberal views more in line with Tory policies then labour policies?
Why's everyone using that term wrong?

Nobody knows what neo-liberalism is. It's a boogieman the left uses to attack many policies that they don't like but they're not really sure why.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

We really need a strong labour party. Say what you will about the tories (and I'm no lover of them), but their horrible policies alluded to improving the economy and creating prosperity. Now the safe party -the party of business- is doing many things to activily kill off business in the U.K. (at least publicly).

A competant labour party could've swept the election, but with the tories allowed to run wild they are STILL perceived as the safer bet because, hey, at least they have a unified party.

 

[SteveWD40]

Nobody knows what neo-liberalism is. It's a boogieman the left uses to attack many policies that they don't like but they're not really sure why.

I always took it to be a sort of Atlas Shrugged approach, free market / capitalism > all, socially liberal but no public spending, survival of the fittest (born richest) etc...

I could be wrong, just how it seemed to me.

Osbourne struck me as one of these (never seemed to bother with social issues) and May is not one to my mind, she is a control freak who wants to know what porn you watch.

 

[darkace]

I always took it to be a sort of Atlas Shrugged approach, free market / capitalism > all, socially liberal but no public spending, survival of the fittest (born richest) etc...

Technically you're right, but only slightly. Originally it was a third-way between state control and classical liberals, but after the reforms of Pinochet and the Chicago boys it came to be associated with a Randian outlook. The only problem is that nobody self-identifies as a Randian neo-liberal, it's just a pejorative used on pro-market policies by the left.

I self-identify as an old-school neo-liberal, but I might be one of about a dozen on Earth that does so.

Crab did a really good post on how the term was essentially meaningless a while back.

 

[Bleepey]

We really need a strong labour party. Say what you will about the tories (and I'm no lover of them), but their horrible policies alluded to improving the economy and creating prosperity. Now the safe party -the party of business- is doing many things to activily kill off business in the U.K. (at least publicly).

A competant labour party could've swept the election, but with the tories allowed to run wild they are STILL perceived as the safer bet because, hey, at least they have a unified party.

Truly shocking. Labour shat the bed, a united Labour could have been like:

The govt had no plan
We will call for a parliamentary vote and make it policy to stay in Europe
Etc etc.

 

[Jezbollah]

Truly shocking. Labour shat the bed, a united Labour could have been like:

The govt had no plan
We will call for a parliamentary vote and make it policy to stay in Europe
Etc etc.

The problem with that being the 67% of Labour constituencies that voted for Leave. How much of that can be offset by Remainers defecting from other parties?

 

[Bleepey]

The problem with that being the 67% of Labour constituencies that voted for Leave. How much of that can be offset by Remainers defecting from other parties?

I'd tout the benefits of the EU. For example Wales, tell them the EU subsidies they get, the amount they'd lose in subsidies. You old ladies may lose your winter subsidies, your bus passes and for what? Nothing. I'd cite the Cornish gov't pleading for their funding to be protected despite the councillor campaigning to leave.

 

[FlammableD]

I'd tout the benefits of the EU. For example Wales, tell them the EU subsidies they get, the amount they'd lose in subsidies. You old ladies may lose your winter subsidies, your bus passes and for what? Nothing. I'd cite the Cornish gov't pleading for their funding to be protected despite the councillor campaigning to leave.

I mean we tried that

 

[Oregano]

I'd tout the benefits of the EU. For example Wales, tell them the EU subsidies they get, the amount they'd lose in subsidies. You old ladies may lose your winter subsidies, your bus passes and for what? Nothing. I'd cite the Cornish gov't pleading for their funding to be protected despite the councillor campaigning to leave.

It's too late for that. That's the kind of thing the Remain campaign should have been doing pre-referendum.

 

[Uzzy]

I'd tout the benefits of the EU. For example Wales, tell them the EU subsidies they get, the amount they'd lose in subsidies. You old ladies may lose your winter subsidies, your bus passes and for what? Nothing. I'd cite the Cornish gov't pleading for their funding to be protected despite the councillor campaigning to leave.

Telling people in economic insecurity that economic insecurity beckons if they do X isn't the smartest of political arguments.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I'd tout the benefits of the EU. For example Wales, tell them the EU subsidies they get, the amount they'd lose in subsidies. You old ladies may lose your winter subsidies, your bus passes and for what? Nothing. I'd cite the Cornish gov't pleading for their funding to be protected despite the councillor campaigning to leave.

Haha yeah project fear 2.0 great plan lol

 

[Uzzy]

Haha yeah project fear 2.0 great plan lol

Besides, Osborne tried that with his special emergency budget proposal. It fell apart the moment Corbyn and a mass of Tory MPs said they wouldn't vote for massive cuts.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

The problem with that being the 67% of Labour constituencies that voted for Leave. How much of that can be offset by Remainers defecting from other parties?

Not much, but you'd hope a united, actually-good-at-their-job Labour party would be able to campaign in their constituencies for the EU and convert angry leave voters to their cause. Except the hard Left of Labour doesn't care about the EU, or voters outside of urban areas...

 

[Maledict]

Haha yeah project fear 2.0 great plan lol

I am so sick of the "project fear" label. It's fucking shameful and embarressing that trying to have a realistic and honest conversation about making a difficult choice gets hand waved away by "you're just trying to scare us" and " we don't listen to experts".

It is the height of idiocy that morons don't want to hear about the bad shit coming when they make their fucked up decisions.

 

[Bleepey]

Haha yeah project fear 2.0 great plan lol

They are seeing project fear come true. Look at how many subsidies are at risk of being lost, the UK is at risk of breaking up. People are seeing the tangible effects. Boris and Co admitted they lied. Show that shit everywhere should people still doubt.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

I am so sick of the "project fear" label. It's fucking shameful and embarressing that trying to have a realistic and honest conversation about making a difficult choice gets hand waved away by "you're just trying to scare us" and " we don't listen to experts".

It is the height of idiocy that morons don't want to hear about the bad shit coming when they make their fucked up decisions.

It's just rhetoric used by loud voices - it's been used for thousands of years. The audience is the most important person in any debate, and playing to them with this sort of line is very effective - especially if your audience is best convinced by simple ideological arguments.

 

[CyclopsRock]

It's just rhetoric used by loud voices - it's been used for thousands of years. The audience is the most important person in any debate, and playing to them with this sort of line is very effective - especially if your audience is best convinced by simple ideological arguments.

But it didn't work... ?

 

[Cerium]

I am so sick of the "project fear" label. It's fucking shameful and embarressing that trying to have a realistic and honest conversation about making a difficult choice gets hand waved away by "you're just trying to scare us" and " we don't listen to experts".

It is the height of idiocy that morons don't want to hear about the bad shit coming when they make their fucked up decisions.

This is why I think that hard Brexit might serve as a beneficial example of how facts, experts, and reason still matter when considering policy. When the predicted consequences become real and start affecting everyday lives, perhaps then a valuable lesson might be learned.