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Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn, Half Shadow cabinet expected to resign today (Labour)

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C

Condom

Member
darkace said:
Yea hard left policies like protectionism and subsidies. They're just wonderful for the working class. That's why they have the backing of exactly zero economists.

Hard left policies are much more about moral signalling than actual outcomes.

Even leaving aside the nuances of their policies, ideological purity is useless in governance. You need to temper it with pragmatism, or you get neither purity nor outcomes.
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So social democracy is not pragmatic now? I thought the whole point we had that instead of revolutionary socialism because it was pragmatic? No you don't know what you're talking about and act like you know something about governance. It's clear from someone who has studied governance and actual experience with governance that you don't.

Subsidies have no support by econonimists lmao

Again, go to your libdem friends. I don't understand why you're interested in labour.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Condom said:
So social democracy is not pragmatic now? I thought the whole point we had that instead of revolutionary socialism because it was pragmatic? No you don't know what you're talking about and act like you know something about governance. It's clear from someone who has studied governance and actual experience with governance that you don't.

Subsidies have no support by econonimists lmao

Again, go to your libdem friends. I don't understand why you're interested in labour.
Click to expand...

Why are you interested in Labour?
 
P

P44

Member
To be honest, all of Corbyn's competition in the first leadership election were pushovers. None of them would have done much better in terms of engaging people, except perhaps Andy Burnham.

Jarvis could pose a much more dangerous opposition, but he's relatively green as well, in terms of time.
 
D

darkace

Banned
Condom said:
So social democracy is not pragmatic now? I thought the whole point we had that instead of revolutionary socialism because it was pragmatic? No you don't know what you're talking about and act like you know something about governance. It's clear from someone who has studied governance and actual experience with governance that you don't.

Subsidies have no support by econonimists lmao

Again, go to your libdem friends. I don't understand why you're interested in labour.
Click to expand...

I studied governance. And econ. That's exactly what I did at uni.

I have no real interest in ideological foibles, just practical outcomes that help everyone. You need a functioning Labour party to temper the Tories, who are overly pro-privatisation and anti-welfare. Corbyn doesn't present that. Corbyn won't ever present that. And sticking with Corbyn is going to get you exactly 0% of what you want from your government, as opposed to a Blairite, who will get you most of it.
 
D

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
P44 said:
To be honest, all of Corbyn's competition in the first leadership election were pushovers. None of them would have done much better in terms of engaging people, except perhaps Andy Burnham.

Jarvis could pose a much more dangerous opposition, but he's relatively green as well, in terms of time.
Click to expand...

just having a military background will endear him to a lot of people in this country right now. of all the names I've seen people suggest so far I think he's the only one that could realistically win and command any sort of leadership. I don't really know most Labour MPs well enough to say so maybe it wouldn't work.
 
Jezbollah

Jezbollah

Member
Angela Eagle now gone. Followed soon after by John Healey

Cl9Cc5IWgAAJB-x.jpg
 
C

Condom

Member
darkace said:
I studied governance. And econ. That's exactly what I did at uni.

I have no real interest in ideological foibles, just practical outcomes that help everyone. You need a functioning Labour party to temper the Tories, who are overly pro-privatisation and anti-welfare. Corbyn doesn't present that. Corbyn won't ever present that. And sticking with Corbyn is going to get you exactly 0% of what you want from your government, as opposed to a Blairite, who will get you most of it.
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'Oh I'm just practical, it just happens to also be rightwing'

Continues to claim Blairite will get most of what you want all based on assumptions that ignore that the reason we have a non-blairite is because the Blairites failed.
 
J

Jackpot

Banned
For anyone who still likes Corbyn, do you actually still think the best thing for him to do is to press on with a Shadow Cabinet filled with nobodies? Do you honestly think he even has a chance at winning the election, or even just more seats?
 
D

darkace

Banned
Condom said:
'Oh I'm just practical, it just happens to also be rightwing'

Continues to claim Blairite will get most of what you want all based on assumptions that ignore that the reason we have a non-blairite is because the Blairites failed.
Click to expand...

Every political positioning test I've ever taken has put me as a centrist with a very slight left lean, but whatever you want to tell yourself.

And the Blairites failed, but the Blair coalition still exists in the UK. It's simply a matter of selecting the right people to seize it. That group doesn't include Corbyn.

You have two choices, pick the radical left and see exactly none of the left agenda implemented, or select the centrist candidates, compromise on your ideological positions, and see a majority implemented. Personally I know which one I'd choose.
 
30yearsofhurt

30yearsofhurt

Member
darkace said:
Every political positioning test I've ever taken has put me as a centrist with a very slight left lean, but whatever you want to tell yourself.

And the Blairites failed, but the Blair coalition still exists in the UK. It's simply a matter of selecting the right people to seize it. That group doesn't include Corbyn.
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Tell em all how you wanted to abolish corporate tax because you thought it was unethical.
Idiot.
 
C

Condom

Member
darkace said:
Every political positioning test I've ever taken has put me as a centrist with a very slight left lean, but whatever you want to tell yourself.

And the Blairites failed, but the Blair coalition still exists in the UK. It's simply a matter of selecting the right people to seize it. That group doesn't include Corbyn.
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Like I said, that means you are to the right of Labour in any sense of the word. You are more like a liberal. Thanks for confirming that at least.
 
P

Par Score

Member
darkace said:
Hard left policies are much more about moral signalling than actual outcomes.

Even leaving aside the nuances of their policies, ideological purity is useless in governance. You need to temper it with pragmatism, or you get neither purity nor outcomes.
Click to expand...

Take your alt-right buzzwords and stuff them up your... sorry, what I mean to say is:

If you're a member of the Labour party, then maybe take some extra time to consider what the party is meant to stand for, comrade.

If you're not a member of the Labour party then we thank you for your valuable input, and I'm sure the membership will give it all due consideration.

Jackpot said:
For anyone who still likes Corbyn, do you actually still think the best thing for him to do is to press on with a Shadow Cabinet filled with nobodies? Do you honestly think he even has a chance at winning the election, or even just more seats?
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Jeremy is the democratically elected leader of the party, and with a larger personal mandate than any other party leader in the UK. He has the right and the responsibility to lead Labour as best he is able, until such time as he wishes to stand down or is democratically replaced.

As a Corbyn supporter, I believe he has a better chance in any future GE than any of the shower of shite that stood against him in the last leadership contest. Until I see who (if anyone) plans to stand against him in any future leadership contest I still consider him the best man for the job.
 
O

Omikaru

Member
Jackpot said:
For anyone who still likes Corbyn, do you actually still think the best thing for him to do is to press on with a Shadow Cabinet filled with nobodies? Do you honestly think he even has a chance at winning the election, or even just more seats?
Click to expand...

I like Corbyn and his platform. I also think he doesn't have a hope in hell. I don't think it's necessarily all the policies that are the problem (though some indeed are), but his leadership.

At this point I think the left needs a strong leader who is anti-austerity and isn't interested in pursuing pet projects at the expense of national mindshare.

The UK is falling apart because of the current government and Corbyn can't even present a straightforward narrative relating to that. If there's someone in the party who can do a better job while campaigning on a left wing platform, then he must go. I don't think any of the people who he beat out for leadership are better than him, however.
 
D

darkace

Banned
30yearsofhurt said:
Tell em all how you wanted to abolish corporate tax because you thought it was unethical.
Idiot.
Click to expand...

Or because it has a very high marginal excess burden, is majority paid by labour over the long-run, and it's simple to enact better taxes that achieve the same outcomes without the massive deadweight losses.

But that's hardly relevant to the discussion. Although the personal attacks are fun.

Condom said:
Like I said, that means you are to the right of Labour in any sense of the word. You are more like a liberal. Thanks for confirming that at least.
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Is Blair to the right of Labour? And how is it relevant at all? Do you want to see any of your policies implemented if it means compromising, or would you rather stick around for moral signalling and ideological purity?
 
A

Arnie7

Banned
If they want to oust him then they should have to go through the voting procedure. Go ahead and try. Nobody can beat Corbyn. Get out and form a new party if you don't like it.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
darkace said:
Or because it has a very high marginal excess burden, is majority paid by labour over the long-run, and it's simple to enact better taxes that achieve the same outcomes without the massive deadweight losses.

But that's hardly relevant to the discussion.
Click to expand...

Corporation tax in the UK is only deadweight loss because it is badly structured and considers accounting profits not economic profits. A tax on economic profits is an optimal tax because there is no deadweight loss - firms are profit-maximising regardless. This is an argument for reform, not abolition.
 
30yearsofhurt

30yearsofhurt

Member
darkace said:
Or because it has a very high marginal excess burden, is majority paid by labour over the long-run, and it's simple to enact better taxes that achieve the same outcomes without the massive deadweight losses.

But that's hardly relevant to the discussion. Although the personal attacks are fun.



Is Blair to the right of Labour? And how is it relevant at all? Do you want to see any of your policies implemented if it means compromising, or would you rather stick around for moral signalling and ideological purity?
Click to expand...

Stop talking shite and I'll stop calling you out on it.
 
T

ThoughtsOfSpeaking

Banned
nelsonroyale said:
Labour are such a disaster...I mean the Tories are in a genuine crisis for the time being, and Labour some how come out looking even more clownish. And gthen they blame it all on the one guy who many tried to sabotage from the start. What a shit show. I do hope the split, it would be the only intellectually honest thing to do. Personally, I would espouse the party playing the long game and building a meaningful, alternative political platform to the Tories. Which means they might not get in the next election, but give the Tories more time and they will inevitably fuck up even more, and people will be ready for change. We need less pyrric victories...
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We simply do not have time for this.
 
D

disco

Member
I'm sorry Corbyn, you are crap.

I get it, you're not an attack politician, you're principles and fair. But Christ, have you seen the competition?! Get some sodding balls!! I like you like I like Socialist Realist art and own a few Verso books but yes, step down, you're ruining everything! We need a united country, we need someone that everyone can get behind and to the majority you're all Leninist woodcuts, French political theory and appear to many as though you don't believe in a dynamic economy, merely subjugated workers and academics. You are too existential but the reality is, the UK's specialised economic is a service hub full of marketing/media/finance/PR people, you need to see that rather than turning your nose up that they're capitalist shills.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Condom said:
'Oh I'm just practical, it just happens to also be rightwing'

Continues to claim Blairite will get most of what you want all based on assumptions that ignore that the reason we have a non-blairite is because the Blairites failed.
Click to expand...

Please stop with this purity test bullshit. Do you think Corbyn can ever get enough seats for a majority in the house of commons? If he can't, who gives a shit what he thinks about anything.
 
C

Condom

Member
darkace said:
Maybe you should take an econ class so you know what shite is.
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Yea because economics class is an amazing oppertunity on learning stuff that benefits working class people

Especially the one in the Uni you went to. The biggest lesson you learned was 'to help working people you should do exactly that that does not help them at all'. Amazed where you that you can just help poor people by doing nothing to help them, it's like magic.
 
D

darkace

Banned
Condom said:
Yea because economics class is an amazing oppertunity on learning stuff that benefits working class people

Especially the one in the Uni you went to. The biggest lesson you learned was 'to help working people you should do exactly that that does not help them at all'. Amazed where you that you can just help poor people by doing nothing to help them, it's like magic.
Click to expand...

Yea remember how I went on about practical outcomes rather than ideology and moral signalling.

Socialism doesn't help the working class. Nor does consigning Labour to opposition forever. But boy does it scratch my ideological priors.

Also I'm not really sure you think economists do, but the entire point is to study scarcity and incentives. Why this wouldn't involve finding ways to help the working class is beyond me.
 
K

klonere

Banned
Straight out of a The Thick of It writers meeting

John Woodcock, the pro-Trident Labour MP who is a fierce critic of Jeremy Corbyn’s, has told Corbyn that if Clive Lewis, the new shadow defence secretary, does not make it back from Glastonbury in time for today’s defence questions (see 11.28am), he will take over himself. Woodcock is chair of the backbench defence committee and Labour rules allow this, he says.
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Amazing
 
M

Maledict

Member
I really don't understand why people think that Blair was the reason labour lost the working class.

Blair won the working class. He persuaded a large amount of Tory, working class voters who supported thatcher to vote labour. We lost those voters in 3010 and 2015, but the research done showed that those voters *still* think Blair was the best leader.

People need to stop thinking they know better and the working class votes as a solid block.
 
B

Bony Manifesto

Member
SuperGamer said:
That poll was from over a month ago. A lot has changed since then. Now that the Tory party is in disarray, Corbyn has a much better chance now than he did back then.
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Really? If anything, I think it would be worse for him. He's alienated the remain camp with his ineptitude/sabotage (delete as appropriate), yet he's not looked upon favourably by leave voters either. He's got the worst of both worlds.
 
M

Maledict

Member
SuperGamer said:
That poll was from over a month ago. A lot has changed since then. Now that the Tory party is in disarray, Corbyn has a much better chance now than he did back then.
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Yes, a lot has changed. He'll do even worse now. Or do you think his base will somehow be more likely to support him after he deliberately fucked up the EU remain campaign, going against the vast majority of what his supporters wanted?

I mean, there are enough former Corbyn voters on Haf alone to show you that a lot of people regret their decision last year.
 
K

klonere

Banned
SuperGamer said:
That poll was from over a month ago. A lot has changed since then. Now that the Tory party is in disarray, Corbyn has a much better chance now than he did back then.
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You mean the referendum that was held where huge swathes of Labour heartland voted against Corbyn's and a majority of his colleagues own stand on the issue. Where people were unsure what Corbyn actually thought of the whole thing because he was so milquetoast about the most important referendums in UK and perhaps European history.

Yeah he'd be doing even better now I'm sure.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Maledict said:
Yes, a lot has changed. He'll do even worse now. Or do you think his base will somehow be more likely to support him after he deliberately fucked up the EU remain campaign, going against the vast majority of what his supporters wanted?

I mean, there are enough former Corbyn voters on Haf alone to show you that a lot of people regret their decision last year.
Click to expand...

Yes, I voted for Corbyn. I am honestly ashamed that I did at this point but I couldn't bring myself to vote for any of the other leadership candidates who were admittedly also dire. Still, it was a self indulgent choice and the country has suffered as a result.
 
S

SuperEpicMan

Banned
As much as I respect Corbyn as a person, he really should step down. What is done is done, he can't reunite a divided labour party, and they need someone who can asap.
 
C

Condom

Member
darkace said:
Yea remember how I went on about practical outcomes rather than ideology and moral signalling.

Socialism doesn't help the working class. Nor does consigning Labour to opposition forever. But boy does it scratch my ideological priors.

Also I'm not really sure you think economists do, but the entire point is to study scarcity and incentives. Why this wouldn't involve finding ways to help the working class is beyond me.
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm out.
N4feLCu.jpg
 
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