Interface_2037
Banned
The majority of people in the UK are perfectly happy to accept immigration...controlled immigration for which we get to set the criteria, you know, just like all the other countries on the planet apart from 27.
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UK Parliament Vote to trigger Article 50 (498 - 144)
- Thread starter SirRattleBalls
- Start date
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The majority of people in the UK are perfectly happy to accept immigration...controlled immigration for which we get to set the criteria, you know, just like all the other countries on the planet apart from 27.
Firstly, no they're not. You're being naive if you believe that.
Secondly, our immigration is controlled. I don't know how many posters here have to put the data under your nose that definitively proves that not only do we explicitly consent to letting people in according to strict criteria, but that the immigrants we receive are a net benefit to this country and NOT a drain on public services, as the government and the press would like to have you believe.
Seriously, check your facts before posting. People can only correct you so many times.
Interface_2037
Banned
Brexit will see UKIP wither on the vine, it's purpose now accomplished.
From very low levels and remain at very low levels for a country of 65m and far fewer than other countries of comparable size in Europe.
Nobody is closing the UK's borders, immigration will continue in a controlled way that's all.
Scotland & NI are going nowhere, If I'm wrong on this I'll be the first to acknowledge that on here with a public mea culpa, but I just don't see it happening.
QuicheFontaine
Member
This feels a pointless to talk about now, but peoples' problems with EU immigration run deeper than just numbers. While non-EU immigration might be greater in numbers, it's still subject to rules that the UK govt can set, vary and control. Non-EU migrants have apply for a visa, they have to prove that they're able to speak English, they have to have a job / have a sponsor capable of supporting them, they don't have recourse to public funds, etc. None of these apply to EU migrants. I see the "Take Back Control" slogan being mocked quite often on GAF, but these are things that the UK public genuinely wants control over.
I think you're giving that too much credence, 'They' just want 'Foreigners" out.
EU immigration was an easy target, for all the reasons you mention, once people wake up and realise that coming out of the EU will not alter our immigration numbers, I wonder what people will be calling for next.
Just continuing to glance at the whitepaper, onto immigration now..
Seems a little wishy-washy and open to interpretation really. It does make clear that there will be controls on numbers of immigrants, and a vague allusion to "ensuring the best and brightest can come to this country". Whether you read that as accepting freedom of movement with limits, or full control, is up to you, but I think it's pretty clear that the government aren't going to accept freedom of movement without at least some sort of concession they can sell as a win, at the very least.
Most of the section is actually devoted to how freedom of movement currently works, rather than what they want to do.
Seems a little wishy-washy and open to interpretation really. It does make clear that there will be controls on numbers of immigrants, and a vague allusion to "ensuring the best and brightest can come to this country". Whether you read that as accepting freedom of movement with limits, or full control, is up to you, but I think it's pretty clear that the government aren't going to accept freedom of movement without at least some sort of concession they can sell as a win, at the very least.
Most of the section is actually devoted to how freedom of movement currently works, rather than what they want to do.
Being originally from the south, living in the north its a worry
That is because they have jack shit ideas on what they really want and how to get it. For them it is all about appearances because we all know that what they'll end up doing is pure sophistry.
Huw_Dawson
Member
UKIP's next move depends on if Nuttall wins the Stoke by-election.
If he does, UKIP will spend the next few years entrenching themselves as the hard-right alternative to the Tories and Labour.
If he doesn't, UKIP will spend the next few years turning into an alt-right movement, guaranteed.
UKIP are not going away. They're a symptom of how it's become acceptable to be a nationalist in the UK. Scotland has the SNP, Wales has Plaid, England has UKIP.
If he does, UKIP will spend the next few years entrenching themselves as the hard-right alternative to the Tories and Labour.
If he doesn't, UKIP will spend the next few years turning into an alt-right movement, guaranteed.
UKIP are not going away. They're a symptom of how it's become acceptable to be a nationalist in the UK. Scotland has the SNP, Wales has Plaid, England has UKIP.
Must have missed getting 14 weeks annual leave for my entire working life somehow
I think they mixed up the UK entitlement to holiday pay figure with the EU minimum entitlement to maternity leave one
Didn't I read that May had shelved this idea? German style works councils were always something from her leadership bid I agreed on.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I was responding to the OP. Second reading is barely more relevant than first, though. At the end of the day, the third reading is what counts and is where the opportunity to amend comes in, and the general point still stands - I've seen too many people who think that Article 50 has now been triggered or that Article 50 legislation has passed into law, when neither of those things is true.
People really need to be taught how parliament works.
Interface_2037
Banned
There is going to be a big rise in anti EU sentiment over the next decade in the ROI.
Now that it is a net contributor, whose payments are going to sky rocket to fill the gap left by the UK leaving, and being targeted by Brussels over dodgy tax arrangements for big companies, the appeal of the EU with its biggest single trading partner in Europe now gone, is bound to suffer.
Large enough for IRexit?, possibly not, but it is no longer out of the question.
Camp Freddie
Member
Here is a great article explaining the stage the bill is at and how it might go.
https://constitution-unit.com/2017/01/31/what-might-parliament-do-with-the-article-50-bill/
The interesting stuff will happen as amendments are considered and at the third reading.
It remains to be seen if Labour will allow a free vote on the third reading, or what they will whip if their proposed amendments fail to be included.
My facebook Corbynite propaganda updates claim the 3-line whip was needed so that Labour would have standing to propose amendments, but that is horseshit (Fake news! Left-wing media! Sad!) You can vote against and still propose amendments, as the Lib Dems and SNP have done. Still, it's interesting that the Corbynites will lie about easily-confirmed parliamentary processes and shows that they're terrified of upsetting the young metro-liberals that follow all the Corbynite facebook groups.
I suspect the bill won't get many amendments, except for some degree of "report back to parliament every x months on the progress" requirements. I've no idea what Labour will do though.
Looking at the white paper, it really just sums up how fucked we are and gives few hints on what the government's position will be (The proposals may as well be 1. Have cake 2. Eat it).
Still, there are some good facts in there and it's not written like a piece of Leave.EU campaign propaganda.
https://constitution-unit.com/2017/01/31/what-might-parliament-do-with-the-article-50-bill/
The interesting stuff will happen as amendments are considered and at the third reading.
It remains to be seen if Labour will allow a free vote on the third reading, or what they will whip if their proposed amendments fail to be included.
My facebook Corbynite propaganda updates claim the 3-line whip was needed so that Labour would have standing to propose amendments, but that is horseshit (Fake news! Left-wing media! Sad!) You can vote against and still propose amendments, as the Lib Dems and SNP have done. Still, it's interesting that the Corbynites will lie about easily-confirmed parliamentary processes and shows that they're terrified of upsetting the young metro-liberals that follow all the Corbynite facebook groups.
I suspect the bill won't get many amendments, except for some degree of "report back to parliament every x months on the progress" requirements. I've no idea what Labour will do though.
Looking at the white paper, it really just sums up how fucked we are and gives few hints on what the government's position will be (The proposals may as well be 1. Have cake 2. Eat it).
Still, there are some good facts in there and it's not written like a piece of Leave.EU campaign propaganda.
What is it with Brexiteers that they all have a fetish for EU disaster porn? It's not enough that they finally got Brexit, they seem obsessed with predictions and narratives of wider EU failure and other countries leaving.
It's almost as if part of them knows it's one of the most stupid fucking things we've ever done, and hopes that things fall apart elsewhere so we don't look so dumb.
Go peddle your masturbatory fantasies elsewhere.
Thats a pipe dream, Ireland would be crazy repeat crazy to leave the EU.
I think it tends to get mocked because it so rarely goes far past the slogan itself. Enquire as to which law they want to be changed, and, outside of freedom of movement, they so rarely come up with a good answer. Most often they can't name a single law, or rule they are concerned about. Second most often they name something that just isn't particularly significant. A lot of the time it feels like the argument boils down to: "We should take back control because we can't trust them to make (some) of our laws".
That white paper is basically a last minute crisis essay, the sort I occasionally shat out as an undergraduate when a deadline snuck up on me.
I mean regardless of people's thoughts on brexit, I think most would agree it's an error strewn, badly written mess which contains absolutely no real information.
Edit: actually checking the pdf metadata it literally was put together in an allnighter.
Creation Date: 2/2/2017 4:26:39 AM
Modification Date: 2/2/2017 7:48:17 AM
I mean regardless of people's thoughts on brexit, I think most would agree it's an error strewn, badly written mess which contains absolutely no real information.
Edit: actually checking the pdf metadata it literally was put together in an allnighter.
Creation Date: 2/2/2017 4:26:39 AM
Modification Date: 2/2/2017 7:48:17 AM
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sure, that's possible. I think it's interesting (especially looking at GAF) how two people can look at the same information and come to two different conclusions. At the end of the day, I just don't think people are by-and-large racist.
Interface_2037
Banned
Come back in 5yrs shall we and see who's right about levels of support for the EU in the ROI.
Racist as in burning crosses and wearing hoods?, no of course not, I don't think most people are outwardly racist, in the traditional sense.
But there definitely is a lot of racist undertones bubbling under the surface
Huw_Dawson
Member
As expected, the white paper is just all of the previous announcements in one document.
1. We're not getting a magical deal with the EU that is better for Britain than us being in the EU.
2. We're still going to need lots of immigrants to fuel our economy after we leave, so it's unlikely immigration will go down all that much.
3. We're about to trigger Article 50 with a huge number of expats thrown under the bus - the paper clearly says that there's no deal yet for them.
It's a big pile of hopes, dreams, and deficit-fuelling bailouts. :|
1. We're not getting a magical deal with the EU that is better for Britain than us being in the EU.
2. We're still going to need lots of immigrants to fuel our economy after we leave, so it's unlikely immigration will go down all that much.
3. We're about to trigger Article 50 with a huge number of expats thrown under the bus - the paper clearly says that there's no deal yet for them.
It's a big pile of hopes, dreams, and deficit-fuelling bailouts. :|
It's got some reasonable figures, but it was clearly hastily put together
You can't really draw any conclusions that weren't in Mays speech, so no single market, controls on immigration, "freest possible trade"
Lol no. Keep living in lala land. The EU is our future and our biggest trading parter as a whol, and, even at the height of dislike for Germany with the crash there was never a doubt about the EU. Way way too many good things have happened because we are in the EU.
Brexit will cause us to shift our focus from UK trade to more EU trade - obviously depending on if you guys go full-moron and go for hard brexit.
I suppose as they say misery loves company, but you are on your own.
Interface_2037
Banned
Like I said, lets wait and see, Ireland is the one on it's own now.
If you think the likes of Germany, France and the others will cut you any slack any more over tax arrangements & increased contributions without the UK to block such moves, then you are deluding yourselves.
You're nothing to them.
I feel like a broken record, but the UK did have control over it. They could have restricted polish workers like Germany, France and many others did. They opened up the floodgates themselves, you can't blame the EU for this.
Yeah we needed big bad UK to save us poor paddys from the Krauts...
Interface_2037
Banned
It was a mutually beneficial arrangement during council meetings and you know it, which will no longer be there for you.
But good luck, time will tell, the odds aren't in your favour.
DarthMasta
Member
You might be right, but Ireland's economy is to a large extent (all?) built on being in the EU. All those multinationals aren't in Ireland due to it's huge internal market...
So, maybe the RoI sees an increase in "Brexit" sentiment, but I doubt the Irish suffer from the same "Britannia rules the waves" feelings to make them think being outside is actually better. It's the difference between a former Imperial power still not aware of it's new place in the world and a country aware just how powerful it really is.
But who knows, you might be right...
QuicheFontaine
Member
If the brakes on my car fail, but I can still vary the speed between 50mph and 70mph by taking my foot off the accelerator, I wouldn't say I'm in control of the vehicle.
Economic and Global realities make sure that you're never in control of the vehicle, your choices are always limited by that fact. It is nonsense to think that one has to freedom to do whatever they like without suffering horrible consequences.
The least of my worries in 30-40 years time are going to be what I posted on GAF back in 2017.
...or do you have some enlightening evidence to suggest that everything's going to be A-OK for my generation and the people who voted for Brexit are, in fact, just doing us a favour?
EDIT: I also "like" that euthanasia jab, as if calling out old people who vote against their own sons and daughter's interests out of selfishness means that I want it. Young brexit voters are bad as well.
Skellig Gra
Member
You are mental. The Irish don't have a false superiority complex like 52%+ of the British apparently do. Ireland has benefited immensely from the EU.
The first time I realized something really weird was going on in the UK was when Dutch PM Mark Rutte made an effort to ask Cameron in 2013 how he wanted to change the EU. Rutte is ideologically similar to Cameron and wanted to work with him trying to move some responsibilities back to the member states. But instead he was gently rebuked.
It seems like nobody in the UK knows what to do, they just have some fantasies about returning to the British Empire, somehow. That's probably why Brexiteers never stop trying to drag the Commonwealth into this, as if trade with Australia could possibly replace the EU.
I should have been more clear. The UK could have banned Polish workers until 2011 like Germany and Austria did. It was entirely up to them and they decided to do nothing. In those 7 years of the trasitional period they could have tried to negotiate adjustments, but they made no such effort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_for_workers_in_the_European_Union
Orniletter
Banned
One of the most outspoken Brexiters on Gaf, criticizing a Remainer for lacking facts .
Edit: Who...on literally the same page....criticizes someone for supposedly polemic posts while talking about euthanasia in his very next reply.
I just can't.
Interface_2037
Banned
Yes it has, past tense.
The years going forward for Ireland in the EU will not be nearly so beneficial, what with being an ever increasing net contributor and it's single biggest trading partner in Europe gone.
The idea that the Irish people will always support the EU, come what may, is just as mental, not to mention arrogant.
The UK was the main proponent for the enlargement.
Skellig Gra
Member
Nothing is forever I'll give you that but there is currently 0 reason for them to even entertain the idea.
Interface_2037
Banned
The only people that bring up the British Empire are foreigners with no clue about UK politics.
The British Empire plays no part in the political discourse of the UK, none whatsoever.
It's just a lazy cliche dragged out from time to time, similar to the way that modern day Germany and it's people are tagged with being Nazi's.
I particularly love the chart 9.3 of the white paper
One of the countries doesn't even exist anymore. Anyone guess which one?
Serbia and Montenegro?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Of course we can't do whatever we like and face no consequences, but there's really nothing unreasonable about what Brexiters are asking for. There's people on this page saying that Leaver sentiment is borne from some British supreriority complex, when all we're really asking for is the same freedom of choice available to any sovereign nation. South Korea? New Zealand? These countries set their own immigration policy. They trade with the world. They have cordial international relationships. Take all the emotion out of this leaving the EU thing and all we're really asking for is to be treated like any other country. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man!
Skellig Gra
Member
Seems fairly obvious, I mean its definitely not China.
See, I always said this when arguing with my mainland European friends. And in some respects it's true - unless you are an older person (who do still talk about it, and there's numerous quotes and interviews from the referendum that show that).
HOWEVER - whilst I don't think people of my generation below think directly of 'empire', I *do* think there is a very specific 'we're great we should go it alone' mentality that isn't present in anywhere near the same degree in mainland Europe. The notion of being stronger as part of a union, and that we give up somethings to get more in return, is far more alien to a lot of British people than it should be.
A better game would be, which of those countries will still be around in 20 years time.
Yeah, no. There's no similarity there.
The British Empire jabs are just mocking the very real problem of British Exceptionalism which is probably the single most important issue we need to tackle as a nation (and largely the reason I think Brexit, or at least something like Brexit, needs to happen and get over with).
Sephiroth503
Member
On what basis is this statement made? As someone who lives in Ireland we are very much aware of how great the EU has been for our country. You can't swing a cat here without touching an EU funded project and we know it.
As noted before, Brexiters don't need a basis for spouting their bullshit with utter conviction.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.
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