Monocle
Member
Cops aren't infallible. You seem to have an unrealistic attitude about authority figures.
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LAPD Officer's Op-Ed: "Don't challenge us and we won't hurt you"
- Thread starter Angry Grimace
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I got pulled over once because I looked in the mirror and he saw me do it. Gave me a warning for a tail light that mysteriously began working again when I was able to get out of the car to check it.
They have their feelers out for "nervous" black men and if they think they got a nibble, it's no trouble for them to reel you in. They get a tick off their quota one way or the other.
They have their feelers out for "nervous" black men and if they think they got a nibble, it's no trouble for them to reel you in. They get a tick off their quota one way or the other.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Monocle
Member
Worst use of that image I've seen this year.
Civilians aren't infallible either though. You seem to have an unrealistic attitude about civilians.
If the USA is like the UK then citizens are legally expected to comply with the police, and the police themselves are expected to comply the "complex" rules they have. Where the USA isn't like the UK is that there is a potential for anyone including the police to have shooters which adds as far as I can see nothing but a clusterfuck of mistrust and fear to any situation.
I only takes one copper or civilian to be shot during a random stop gone wrong and the whole system goes to shit.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Notice that the burden of responsability always falls on the shoulders of bystanders and rarely on the cops, despite the fact that they are the ones who sworn to uphold the law and should be held to higher standards.
It's almost as if figures of authority has the least responsability.
Expecting to not get killed for walking or arguing is hardly unrealistic.
Same could be said for the police though, they are just people doing a difficult job who have families to think about. There is obviously bent cops, same as there are bent civilians but it won't be a majority as some in here suggest and not all of them will have had their mrs banged by a black guy the previous night as one poster here incredibly said.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
wat
Cops specifically signed up for a job that requires them to regularly deal with a) scum, b) upset people, c) drunk people and plenty more.
So if they can't handle being yelled at, walked towards "threatingly" or other things that aren't an outright assault without responding with lethal force immediately, they signed up for the wrong job and should be removed.
quantumnerd
Member
If a citizen uses excessive force on a cop, it won't make the news. If a cop uses excessive force on a citizen, suddenly we it's a wartime police state or something? I don't see it that way. For one, there are always a few assholes that make the rest of us look bad, the police force included. Secondly, I'm going to go against most people here and say the cop who wrote the article is mostly right-- most cops will not use excessive force and will only risk it when physically threatened. People are saying this guy is telling you "do what I say or I will beat you". He's not. He's saying that if someone looks like they could turn violent, he'll keep himself safe. Shooting someone for walking is a bit much, but he's not advocating that.
That said, it's a bit tonedeaf considering the issue at hand, and definitely doesn't justify harassment of journalists, racial profiling, and whatnot.
That said, it's a bit tonedeaf considering the issue at hand, and definitely doesn't justify harassment of journalists, racial profiling, and whatnot.
Shyakugaun
Banned
This article is Legendary, can't believe this is real 😩
So have we had the specifics of this shooting now? I don't tend to judge any situation until then.
The USA does amuse me. Their laws allow everyone to have guns then wonder why everyone has twitchy bums and trigger fingers and people get shot randomly. In the UK if a drunk guy is kicking off, chances are he hasn't got a gun in his pants, that can't be said in the US.
How many civilians kill police verses police killing civilians in the USA?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Hahahaha nice one! Almost seemed real! Wait...
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
If a citizen uses any form of force on a cop, he will either go to jail or develop a bad base of lead allergy.
If a cop uses excessive force on a citizen, he will most probably laugh it off or get a paid suspension while their police department laugh it off for a while.
Don't you see the actual issue here?
There are significant amounts of firearms in the hands of civilians in countries such as France, Spain, Germany and Finland, not to mention Switzerland, yet cops rarely pull their guns, let alone fire a shot. Not even in Spain, despite the fact that we went through decades of actual, society shattering terrorism. "Us vs. them" plays a much larger part than gun ownership when it comes to these things.
Cool post would read again
you don't have to be bent or crooked to be a bad cop. Or to deserve to not be on the force, or should really be in any other occupation that one as a civic authority with a gun.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
In theory I agree completely with the article. I mean that's the high and low of it; comply and largely you'll be fine.
My problem is what is defined as "comply"? Cops are easily offended, and are quick to escalate simple issues or requests for information as beliggerent acts. And if you're Black? Hoo boy.
There's a reason Black people in general do not trust cops, even when the cops themselves are Black.
My problem is what is defined as "comply"? Cops are easily offended, and are quick to escalate simple issues or requests for information as beliggerent acts. And if you're Black? Hoo boy.
There's a reason Black people in general do not trust cops, even when the cops themselves are Black.
There is a problem when your idea of aggression is different than his. Like he says in the article, you can't know what's in his head. He asks you to comply with his demands and expectations, but there is no way for you to gauge these minute-by-minute during a stop. There is no way for you to know if you match the description of a murderer he is on the lookout for. There is no way for you to know that he's had an especially stressful day and that your sneeze will be misconstrued as a violent action.
I understand the thrust of his argument: don't resist arrest. But he leaves room for corrupt cops etc that prevent your compliance from being a guarantee of safety, yet still insists that the responsibility for a safe encounter rests on you. He is talking as if he is an absolute, infallible authority, which cannot be the case. There can be clear differences between an intentional act of aggression (which a person is wise to avoid during an arrest) and an action police mistake for aggression (which cannot be avoided by anyone but the police).
His insistence that you are innocent until proven guilty is a big problem with his argument. If a cop arrests you, it is ostensibly because he believes you are guilty. He will treat you as if you have done something wrong. Otherwise there is no reason for the arrest. This starts him off with a bias against you, and he presumes your guilt without knowing all the facts.
Either way, body came are a good idea.
The vast majority of police will not be any of those though.
Is it a power trip? They have the power as part of their job to do things that you and I can't and they are judged under a different set of rules. Like or lump it I'm afraid.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Perhaps he is targeting this bit of information to the hostile criminals he is encountering, but it is written by itself as a general rule for everyone including innocent civilians.
He does not have this authority to go around telling ordinary people what to do. That "authority" does not exist. The police in Ferguson however, think they do. And It's a growing problem
the vast majority? How vast? How major? If 15% of the force is essentially unfit, is that too many? Not enough?
They have authority, the abuse of that authority is mistaken as power when really it's just force.
If their jobs came with "power", they wouldn't need million dollar lobbyists and union power to go to the political level. They get their power in other ways, except they use it.
The UK has had decades of dealing with the IRA too, I'm not sure what your point is?
I dunno, depends on how hyperbolic your mood is today I guess.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That fears of being shot at don't correlate that well with American cops being trigger happy or just plain violent when other nations don't have such problems despite a recent story of tremendous violence.
in other words, party and bullshit, and flowery sentiment. we hope that the vast majority of police are the good ones, we expect it, we'll just assume it and call it a night then.
and stay off of twitter. #ferguson #notallcops
CountAntonius
Member
Closest I can find
In 2013
Line of Duty Deaths: 105
The number has actually gone down a bit since 2010 where there was 127.
There is no real number for civilians since it isn't tracked but it is estimated to be nearly 500-1000 yearly on this site. Which falls in line with Wikepedia saying there is an average of nearly 400 "Justifiable homicides" a year alone.
And for total gun related deaths in the country
Could Only find Totals for 2011
All homicides
Number of deaths: 16,238
Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 11,068
Can't say how accurate this is as I just tried my best with Google.
You're right - being angry at a bullying, bracingly authoritarian op-ed is lame. All the cool kids really love articles written by reps of a militarized police force, in which they blame victims of police violence for their own abuse. Expressing rage over matters of social justice is really just passe posturing -- I really should have known better. My bad. Sorry for citing contemporary examples from the city I live in, written by a guy who shares my age, race, gender and profession, by the way -- I have no idea why I thought that was relevant.
Cool avatar, by the way. "Black Jesus" is among America's finest comedic efforts, much like the droll 'memes' you are delighting us with.
There's no "this shooting". The thread is for discussing the article posted in the OP and that's what I'm doing.
And I've seen enough specifics to realize that the article is a crock of shit and blames civilians for the fact that the US has established a police culture in which cops regularly get away with literal murder with no repurcussions whatsoever, due to an attitude that is in no way justifiable. Things need to change on the side of the law, both as an institution and as individuals. To blame the civilians for it just makes you look like an out-of-touch asshole.
quantumnerd
Member
I do, although I probably didn't express myself well. It's not right for cops to get paid vacation for costly cases of excessive force. My point is that most cops treat situations reasonably, but you don't hear about those thousands of instances of everyday good policing, you hear about those vacations after things go wrong. And that at a surface level, the cop's article is correct, even though it omits discussion of my "real issues", like militarization of the police, discrimination/race dynamics, treatment of the press, crowd control, bad PR, poor evidence procedures. I think the recent shooting is likely unjust, and that other police PR has bordered on lies lately, but there are plenty of cases where cops get their guns grabbed and have to shoot or risk being shot -- that's all the cop wanted to say. That's not onion-worthy.
I guess I'm being a bit nitpicky about the argument, but I don't like it when people decide to hate on anyone because of a few bad apples or because it's popular to, especially when it interferes with proper debate.
Well in isolation from the raw emotions of the shooting the guy in the article does not say at lot wrong.
If the police need to ask you a few questions in order for them to do their job, just answer them and talk to them in a civilised manner and all will be well. Their job is to ask the questions others won't some just need to deal with that.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
When it comes to guns the USA is not even playing the in the same league as any of those countries you mention, its so not even close it is ridiculous to try to compare.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I lived through the so called Years of Lead. No, it's not ridiculous at all, and it's certainly not an excuse.
The article says that the cop is not responsible for killing someone, if he simply perceives them as a threat. Aside the fact that this is simply laughable and wouldn't find defenders anywhere but the US, it also ignores the decades of systemic corruption, racism and abuse of power within the entirety of the police.
Thanks to technological advancement we're at a point where those incidents can actually be documented and that's why there's actual need for LEOs like this one to defend themselves via articles like this one. He's victim-blaming and quite frankly I don't know why you're arguing that.
Under the common law of the UK, no, there is no legal duty to comply with police. Only moral. Some statutes require you to divulge name and address but that's it.
Any copper has a split second usually to decide whether someone is a threat. The sheer amount of guns in the USA must make a police a touch more jumpy than the average police person when making that decision. Now, I'm not saying that is right or wrong but I can see why shit happens.
"You don't have to say anything, but this can and will be used against you in a court of law."
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
Just Wow man....hey what did the guy in NYC who got strangled and left for dead challenge after he stopped a fight on the street? Geezus
The bolded is just not true.
They are not abiding by those rules though. They are breaking the rules (either by malice or more often plain old incompetence) and then using the blue code of silence to protect themselves. So you should probably be telling them to like it or lump it as far as rules are concerned.
Indeed. I've been considering moving back, but the law enforcement situation gives me pause, and I am the whitest white guy around.
Are you in the situations they get in often then?
Do the Police have satisfaction ratings in the US?
I fail to see how that's relevant.
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