yep, that, or a shitty variety show.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!
- Thread starter I'm an expert
- Start date
yep, that, or a shitty variety show.
Hey now, しゃべくり007 and アメトーーク are great stuff!
Zeouterlimits
Member
I've been studying Japanese for years now and despite some hype moments that lasted only a few weeks each, I failed N4 last December. People say even a few minutes each day will take you to your goal, shortly but safely. That's bullshit. Believe me. How long do you want to stay at the beginner level only being able to use the most basic things. It's really frustrating. If you want to get somewhere, invest as much time as possible every single day in the Japanese language or you will end up like me
I'm not talking hours and hours, but 15 minutes will bring you nowhere.
...
I don't want to get scared off. I am going to proceed as best I can
I will at least pass N5 in December, I am going to make that happen!
Cloggerdude
Member
After convincing my wife that we should visit Japan in 2020, I've finally decided to take the plunge and start learning the language. I don't think I'll be anywhere near fluent by the time we take our trip, but I hope to have at least a solid baseline.
Started Thursday and I just now finished the Hiragana lessons on https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/. I really tried to take my time on it, so I actually feel pretty good about it right now. I'm still not super fast, but I can definitely recognize all the characters.
So my question now is, where to go from here? I've got Genki, so should I just start working on those lessons first? I had started to read the book, but then decided that I should really learn all the Hiragana first. Should I learn the Katakana first as well, before starting? I've tried reading through this thread some, but any advice for a complete beginner would be greatly appreciated.
Started Thursday and I just now finished the Hiragana lessons on https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/. I really tried to take my time on it, so I actually feel pretty good about it right now. I'm still not super fast, but I can definitely recognize all the characters.
So my question now is, where to go from here? I've got Genki, so should I just start working on those lessons first? I had started to read the book, but then decided that I should really learn all the Hiragana first. Should I learn the Katakana first as well, before starting? I've tried reading through this thread some, but any advice for a complete beginner would be greatly appreciated.
Got to go to work so don't have time to answer all your questions, but learn katakana, and now. You will instantly gain the ability to read thousands of words that Japanese (with some alterations to meaning) have adopted from English (and other languages).
Cloggerdude
Member
Will do! I tried to start the first lesson in Genki today, but was struggling pretty hard. I think I may have just overdone it a bit though. I was trying to translate all of the hiragana as I went and I think that might have done it. I'm going to take the rest of the day off and then start on Katakana tomorrow.
once you've really got the hiragana in your head you won't need to translate them. Where you want to be studying the vocabulary is a place where you're recognizing the Japanese word from kana and kanji. Even if you aren't studying Kanji separately yet, by lesson three when Genki drops romaji and instead gives you both kana and kanji for words, learn to recognize the kanji. Do the reading/writing exercises in the back if that helps. DEFINITELY do the reading/listening comprehension exercise for the chapter in the back. (I recommend trying to listen until you've got it, then go to the text and see how you did & answer the questions.)
ask questions here about what you're having trouble with.
3 months is more that enough yuuup, no worries
This wasn't intended to be a demotivation or something to scare you off....
I don't want to get scared off. I am going to proceed as best I can
I will at least pass N5 in December, I am going to make that happen!
More like the opposite and a reminder to myself, that I need to kick my ass more and get things done. Especially with a Japanese girlfriend and many of her Japanese friends around regularly, it should be easy for me to get good pretty fast.
Damn language anxiety...
Good luck to you and please keep us updated about your progress! It will be motivating for othes, too
Porcile
Member
Thing about Japanese is that you'll never improve unless you sit down and study it pretty hardcore at some point because of kanji being so essential to the language. The whole "get a Japanese girlfriend/boyfriend" thing only works if you put in the effort to actually to learn. In which case you don't actually need a girlfriend or boyfriend. Lots of people kidding themselves out there imo. Not aimed at anyone in particular, just a random thought.
Hard study doesn't help speaking so much, does it? You talk to significant others, their friends/family, etc.
Porcile
Member
True, but having speaking ability is the result of sitting down with some materials and learning from them. With Japanese I just think there's a limit to how much you can do with the language if you don't get that base knowledge. The majority of materials which will take your overall ability to a higher level are off limits if you don't have that kanji ability, and kanji can't simply be learnt just through exposure.
I'd think it would greatly depend on what you're spending those 15 minutes on.I've been studying Japanese for years now and despite some hype moments that lasted only a few weeks each, I failed N4 last December. People say even a few minutes each day will take you to your goal, shortly but safely. That's bullshit. Believe me. How long do you want to stay at the beginner level only being able to use the most basic things. It's really frustrating. If you want to get somewhere, invest as much time as possible every single day in the Japanese language or you will end up like me
I'm not talking hours and hours, but 15 minutes will bring you nowhere.
Consistently spending 15 minutes a day reading and/or spaced repetition would let you achieve decent process. (If you're reading something you enjoy it would probably end up being rather difficult to force yourself to spending only 15 minutes a day.)
Let's say I would spend my time on Anki or WaniKani. In the beginning, 15 minutes are enough. But things keep adding up and sooner or later you won't be able to finish your reviews in those 15 minutes. And then, when will you study grammar?
15 minutes really isn't enough. Maybe if you already have a great foundation and spend those 15 minutes with just reading to solidify your knowledge, just like you said.
marimorimo
Member
If you put in the effort I think it's possible. The problem is understanding their reply to your question.
100℅
Valkerionseven
Member
Yup.
If you don't have a native speaker talking to you expect to be really confused with most things said to you lol. Shit after a year of living here its still a problem for me except for the people I talk to/listen to regularly. So many ways of speaking, voices, slang, proper speech. Just like any language.
Just try your best listening to key words and you will be fine -thumbsup-
I've taken Spork's advice to heart about talking more to myself in Japanese. For now, I'm writing out note cards with topic ideas (mostly taken from Genki II pair exercises) and I tape that to the dash of my car and practice conversations on my morning commute. I like practicing in the car because it's more "without a net" since I can't stop and look up something I've forgotten.
It's immediately revealed the big gap between what I "know" versus what I can actually deploy in a conversation. I think it's going to help and hopefully after a while I can ditch the planned topics idea.
It's immediately revealed the big gap between what I "know" versus what I can actually deploy in a conversation. I think it's going to help and hopefully after a while I can ditch the planned topics idea.
Cloggerdude
Member
Per KtSlime's advice, I began studying Katakana and just finished up this morning. I'm still not as fast as I know I probably should be, but I can successfully recognize all of the characters (?) in both Hiragana and Katakana now. RealKana really stresses you at first, but I think going through it helped me more than anything.
So....what now? Should I continue practicing with Hiragana/Katakana, or should I go ahead and start Genki I now? Also, has anyone tried TextFugu?
So....what now? Should I continue practicing with Hiragana/Katakana, or should I go ahead and start Genki I now? Also, has anyone tried TextFugu?
Yeah, I agree. It's the difference between being a walking phrasebook and an actual speaker of the language. You'll pick up bits and pieces through osmosis, but there's a difference between knowing "Say SOUDESUNE whenever someone says this" versus being able to parse that into (そう
(です(ね, understanding what each part does, and seeing how you can string them into other sentences.I'd recommend jumping straight into Genki while reviewing the kana on the side. The books have kana in the example sentences, so you'll get practice just by going through the book.
As for TextFugu, my time with the free trial was alright, but I wasn't that amazed by it. I have been eying a lifetime subscription just because it comes with one to EtoEto, which looks much more robust, but it's been in development for so long that I don't know when/if it's coming.
It's possible to fiddle with the amount of new cards a day and the total amount of cards given a day in order to force your anki routines to always stay below 15 minutes.
Grammar-wise you could try to cover the basic grammar By spending those 15 minutes reading 1-2 articles a day, and learning the rest as part of your reading sessions.
While I agree with you that only spending 15 minutes isn't really very recommendable for people who lack time making sure to consistently spend those 15 minutes a day would mean they still can get somewhere over time.
I recently found out about the series 「けものフレンズ」 and the huge (somewhat scarily cultish) following it has, and it turns out that saying some combination of「たのしー！」, 「すごーい！」、「わーい！」 and 「きみは[insert descriptive subclause here]フレンズなんだね！」 is a meme that's pretty much everywhere now.
Which would explain him seemingly randomly saying that out of nowhere.
I started a new job at a university, and as employees we can take classes for free. There's a Japanese minor and I'm planning on starting in the fall. It has three years of language classes, using Genki I and II for the two years, and Tobira for third year, but that's as far as it goes. I still think it will be a good foundation, and I'm working through Genki I on my own right now because I don't want to twiddle my thumbs until the fall.
Are you taking up Japanese as a hobby or with an end goal in mind?
3 years for 3 books is quite drawn out. You could do those 3 books solo in 3-12 months time, assuming you have a full time work schedule
Do you have any background Japanese knowledge (grammar) or have you only been studying vocabulary?
I don't want to push you or anything, but...
Bought a whiteboard and markers and my body is ready.
the-pi-guy
Member
What is the best way to memorize vocabulary?
Something other than Anki.
Something other than Anki.
lol. I'm feeling much better about not "getting" that sentence now.
Sakura
Member
Eh, I dunno about that.
I studied Japanese on my own, without ever speaking it to anyone, and was able to speak it well enough when I want to Japan to get a job doing customer service. The effort you put in is the biggest factor to your success. There are many people with Japanese SO who still have terrible Japanese years later.
Anki
:/
What's wrong with Anki
Cloggerdude
Member
I kept hearing about I'm an expert and his "whiteboard method" in here, so I finally looked it up. Here's the post I found.
I've seen you all talking about it some in this thread, but is this something that I should consider doing as a beginner? Due to the nature of my current job, I could actually probably pull this off if I just stayed dedicated enough. If you do recommend it, does anyone have any tips for getting started?
I've seen you all talking about it some in this thread, but is this something that I should consider doing as a beginner? Due to the nature of my current job, I could actually probably pull this off if I just stayed dedicated enough. If you do recommend it, does anyone have any tips for getting started?
Maybe it's not a big surprise since this is a gaming forum, but there are a lot of Japanese games I wish I could play, both current and historical. I also like manga and anime and would like to read/watch in the native language. My wife and I want to take a trip there as well, and some indeterminate point in the future. We met in Seoul and both love traveling and visiting Asia.
The courses cover six lessons of Genki a semester for the first two years. I'm not sure about the pace of the third book though.
the-pi-guy
Member
It's great.
I want something more involved I guess, is how I would describe it.
TheSporkWithin
Member
"Anki + notebook and pen" was my method, but whiteboards are a very popular choice 'round these parts.
TheSporkWithin
Member
That's typical speed for a college course, but it's glacially slow in the grand scheme of things. That said, there are some aspects of classroom learning that are really helpful, especially at a foundation-building stage. I'd suggest taking the course, but study ahead if you have the time. Depending on how receptive your teacher is you can likely go to them with questions about more advanced grammar or see about getting paired up with a more advanced student for tutoring or conversation practice.
E: whoops, meant to do that as one post.
For people who did the JLPT test, how did it take you to get from N_ to N_?
I want to have a crack at N4 in Dec (Already did N5), though some of my friends reckon I should tryN3 instead.
Even if the tests only care about writing and reading skills, I want to make sure speaking ability doesn't lag behind this time.
My wanikani statistics reckon if I hold my current progress rate steady for the whole year, I should leave 95% of N3 kanji by mid-Sep.
I'm just unaware on the duration it would take to learn grammar for N4/3.
I don't mind sacrificing weekends every now and then to study, but I just want to make sure it's plausible to pass within a set time frame. If I'm going to do N3, better start now than 5 months later.
I want to have a crack at N4 in Dec (Already did N5), though some of my friends reckon I should tryN3 instead.
Even if the tests only care about writing and reading skills, I want to make sure speaking ability doesn't lag behind this time.
My wanikani statistics reckon if I hold my current progress rate steady for the whole year, I should leave 95% of N3 kanji by mid-Sep.
I'm just unaware on the duration it would take to learn grammar for N4/3.
I don't mind sacrificing weekends every now and then to study, but I just want to make sure it's plausible to pass within a set time frame. If I'm going to do N3, better start now than 5 months later.
I don't want to push you or anything, but...
Bought a whiteboard and markers and my body is ready.
Sorry mate. Busy weeks for me. I'm gonna write a new post and explain all my shit seeing as the only other person who finished it is banned. Figure it needs a new take on it.
You're a beginner right? If you can finish genki 1 and 2 in less than 2 months you're ready for whiteboard. But if not, nah I wouldn't consider it yet.
Genki + tobira won't have you playing games and understanding them (and anime and manga), especially If that's all you do for 3 years.
Long answer: I'm not giving one
Short answer: if you start studying seriously now you'll be ready for The n3 mid year
Only vocab atm, what would you suggest?
Cloggerdude
Member
Most definitely a beginner. I had pretty much decided to go with Genki anyway, but hearing it from someone else makes me feel better about the decision.
You mentioned 2 months for both books: is that a pretty good pace? I'm all about it if so, but I didn't know what kind of pace I should be shooting for.
日本語チャレンジ series starting from n4 for grammar and then working to n1 , while using WebKit, Jgram and the three grammar dictionaries
The textbooks just give you information and a little bit of teaching. You get 2 things from this method:
1. You learn Japanese grammar
2. You learn to find information yourself.
IMO that makes sure you retain it. If you go this way let me know. If not, everybody and their dad starts at genki. Not my cuppa.
Most beginner text books can be finished within a month if you studied them hard and committed time. Eg I "finished" (front to back page) the 日本語チャレンジ books at about 2/3 weeks a piece. I revisited them but I covered the content quickly. Reckon you are up for that?
FYI there will be people here who suggest going slower - would be good to hear from them so that yhr new posters can pick which way they want to go.
I have gone slower (glacially slower, like a college pace) largely because work and family commitments limit what I can do.* But I started with the view that this time I was going to study every day, no matter what, and keep making forward progress. Sometimes work keeps me travelling for long stretches of all day meetings that go deep into the night and start again first thing the am, so there are long periods where all I can do is review what I have learned (I make my own grammar anki cards so that I do not ever forget grammar points).
My goal was to learn, without a time horizon for when. I suspect most people have specific time horizons they want to meet. And as evidenced by some of my recent posts, my frustrations with my pace are creeping up, so I'm making some changes to what I do.
Anyway, research all the resources and methods out there, and just start learning. Once you dive in you'll have a better sense of what you want and how to get there. And then you apply Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kun Do to everything everyone says here: "Take what is useful, and discard the rest."
Edit: my own bit of advice that you can use or discard as you see fit: whatever you do, incorporate learning kanji from day 1. It's pointless not to do this.
My goal was to learn, without a time horizon for when. I suspect most people have specific time horizons they want to meet. And as evidenced by some of my recent posts, my frustrations with my pace are creeping up, so I'm making some changes to what I do.
Anyway, research all the resources and methods out there, and just start learning. Once you dive in you'll have a better sense of what you want and how to get there. And then you apply Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kun Do to everything everyone says here: "Take what is useful, and discard the rest."
Edit: my own bit of advice that you can use or discard as you see fit: whatever you do, incorporate learning kanji from day 1. It's pointless not to do this.
Porcile
Member
Thing about textbooks, is that they're okay for learning grammar points in their most basic and obvious use, but the minute you venture out there in the wild you'll see sentences constructed and grammar used in ways that you never get taught.
Take this opening paragraph from NHK News Web Easy. I would say this is super basic, but it reads nothing like the type of sentence a textbook would ever really teach. It's really easy to read if you're used to seeing sentences written this way, but maybe really confusing if you've just stuck with the textbook. I've never used Genki or Tobira though so I don't know how far they go in terms of giving you the ability to read natural style text.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/k10010879911000/k10010879911000.html
アメリカで１６日、「移民がいない日」という名前のストライキがありました。トランプ大統領が出した中東など７つの国の人をしばらくアメリカに入れない命令に反対するためです。
If I was to start learning a new language from scratch, then I would just use a textbook at first to get a basic idea of how a sentence is typically constructed in that language like SVO, SOV whatever. Once I understood the basic rules then I would extract the basic grammar point only, learn words (alongside the writing system) and just read a lot, even if the things I'm reading were way above my current understanding.
These days, when I'm reading something and I see a grammar point I haven't come across, I try to make connections as to how that piece of grammar might be effecting the words around it, and you can piece it together through common sense. Grammar is just glue for words really. You can't always do this of course, but after a while reading things becomes a fairly natural process.
I think a difficult part of learning Japanese is how words can be changed in different ways and how they then then get used. On a really basic level something like 楽しい、おいしく，かわいそう、高さ etc and then how words can be further modified after that. Especially adding extra grammar to already conjugated verbs and shit, which can then also be be further changed. English to me feels like word, word, word, word and so on like you're just brute forcing out words. Japanese feels more mathematical or something, like you start with something really small and then build on top of it. I guess English has this too though. Hard to explain but only something you begin to realise once you free yourself from the shackles of textbook pages.
Take this opening paragraph from NHK News Web Easy. I would say this is super basic, but it reads nothing like the type of sentence a textbook would ever really teach. It's really easy to read if you're used to seeing sentences written this way, but maybe really confusing if you've just stuck with the textbook. I've never used Genki or Tobira though so I don't know how far they go in terms of giving you the ability to read natural style text.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/easy/k10010879911000/k10010879911000.html
アメリカで１６日、「移民がいない日」という名前のストライキがありました。トランプ大統領が出した中東など７つの国の人をしばらくアメリカに入れない命令に反対するためです。
If I was to start learning a new language from scratch, then I would just use a textbook at first to get a basic idea of how a sentence is typically constructed in that language like SVO, SOV whatever. Once I understood the basic rules then I would extract the basic grammar point only, learn words (alongside the writing system) and just read a lot, even if the things I'm reading were way above my current understanding.
These days, when I'm reading something and I see a grammar point I haven't come across, I try to make connections as to how that piece of grammar might be effecting the words around it, and you can piece it together through common sense. Grammar is just glue for words really. You can't always do this of course, but after a while reading things becomes a fairly natural process.
I think a difficult part of learning Japanese is how words can be changed in different ways and how they then then get used. On a really basic level something like 楽しい、おいしく，かわいそう、高さ etc and then how words can be further modified after that. Especially adding extra grammar to already conjugated verbs and shit, which can then also be be further changed. English to me feels like word, word, word, word and so on like you're just brute forcing out words. Japanese feels more mathematical or something, like you start with something really small and then build on top of it. I guess English has this too though. Hard to explain but only something you begin to realise once you free yourself from the shackles of textbook pages.
I've looked through the grammar section of N3 the other night and was surprised a knew a fair amount than I had originally expected (Thank you games and manga).
Another cool thing I found was a spreadsheet listing the words that don't appear in Wanikani's vocab. So, I can learn those on the side while doing all the kanji testing.
I kinda share the same feelings as Porcile with grammar books. They're are helpful, but you need dive into the meatier stuff.
That's the worst part of the language for me. When talking to friends, it takes me forever to try and sum up non-basic sentences in my head.
Another cool thing I found was a spreadsheet listing the words that don't appear in Wanikani's vocab. So, I can learn those on the side while doing all the kanji testing.
I kinda share the same feelings as Porcile with grammar books. They're are helpful, but you need dive into the meatier stuff.
That's the worst part of the language for me. When talking to friends, it takes me forever to try and sum up non-basic sentences in my head.
That's very interesting. Can you PM it to me?
I'm interested too!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...qet4cIitvLRvsjxF7ArmCU6Rik/edit#gid=945062219
The guy is still working on it I believe, so there's still kaniwani's kanji which haven't been correctly labelled to appear on LJPT test yet. Thou, all in all, you get a good idea on what to focus on.
The guy is still working on it I believe, so there's still kaniwani's kanji which haven't been correctly labelled to appear on LJPT test yet. Thou, all in all, you get a good idea on what to focus on.