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Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!

Yeah, the main issue with manga and most video games is that they're going to be nearly entirely dialogue, and usually dialogue broken into very short sentences to fit into text bubbles and boxes (exceptions, of course, exist). Being able to understand dialogue is very important! It's how we communicate, after all. But when you read anything else in Japanese, be it a novel, a cell phone contract, a newspaper, or a blog, you're going to find that the sentences can be extremely long a great deal of the time, stacking relative clauses and conditionals in ways that are going to leave your head spinning as you try to figure out how to hold them all in your head and fit them together into something coherent.

That said, the simple act of reading, that is, scanning your eyes over Japanese writing and processing that into sounds and information, is of value, no matter what it is you're reading. Relying on furigana can have a lessening effect on that value, to be sure, but it's still worth something. It's not something that I'd ever consider to be study time, but the time that I've logged playing, say, Final Fantasy 14 in Japanese made an enormous difference in my reading ability, even if they're speaking purely fantasy crap. Things like Persona 5 are much more useful, objectively, due to the fact that so much of the dialogue is actually stuff that's used in real life, but the information density of the quest text and dialogue in FF14 is a valuable challenge too.
 

Resilient

Member
It will lead to it though.
Learning to read isn't something that magically just limits itself to only just the thing you're reading at moment. Rather, everything you read further builds onto your ability to do so.
Sure, one is not as likely to come across much financial and political terminology when reading shounen manga, but in that case you can just use the reading skills you've built up and go and gather those by reading something like jp.reuters.com and looking up a lot in a dictionary.
For practicing speaking you're indeed going to have to speak but I don't really think that that's particularly related to whether or not you decide to read manga for practice. (one can also always just start practicing that later when their sense of Japanese sentence structure is better)

OK, I don't want this to sound mean, but you're being a bit pedantic here. Of course it will lead to it. It's just not very effective. That's why I said "at best it will expand your vocab". I read J-news, and read manga/play games in Japanese. You're pretty fluent (from what I understand anyway), so you and I both know very well that it does not translate well at all. In fact, I'd go as far to say that they're both completely different styles of reading and the only thing that translates is they both have particles in them. Reading something like My Hero Academia is totally different to reading anything of importance on yahoo.jp. Except the comments.

Like I said. If it's your goal, go for it. Just don't kid yourself; cause you'll be in for a rude awakening later.

Yeah, the main issue with manga and most video games is that they're going to be nearly entirely dialogue, and usually dialogue broken into very short sentences to fit into text bubbles and boxes (exceptions, of course, exist). Being able to understand dialogue is very important! It's how we communicate, after all. But when you read anything else in Japanese, be it a novel, a cell phone contract, a newspaper, or a blog, you're going to find that the sentences can be extremely long a great deal of the time, stacking relative clauses and conditionals in ways that are going to leave your head spinning as you try to figure out how to hold them all in your head and fit them together into something coherent.

That said, the simple act of reading, that is, scanning your eyes over Japanese writing and processing that into sounds and information, is of value, no matter what it is you're reading. Relying on furigana can have a lessening effect on that value, to be sure, but it's still worth something. It's not something that I'd ever consider to be study time, but the time that I've logged playing, say, Final Fantasy 14 in Japanese made an enormous difference in my reading ability, even if they're speaking purely fantasy crap. Things like Persona 5 are much more useful, objectively, due to the fact that so much of the dialogue is actually stuff that's used in real life, but the information density of the quest text and dialogue in FF14 is a valuable challenge too.

OK, this is another great point and anybody who is studying Japanese seriously, or plans to, should take note. The bolded here, Alanae kinda touched on, but Spork articulated better (sorry Alanae, don't be mad). HOWEVER - Alanae and Spork will back me here - the benefit from this comes only after you've got a moderate degree of grammar knowledge under your belt. I assure you (again, speaking from experience here), it will just fall straight out of your head otherwise. Because it's garbage. Do yourself a massive favour. Stick to the books for just a little bit more. Tough it out. Finish the Genki 1 and 2 or something, I don't know. Then buy an N4 study book, absorb the grammar. Then try reading One Piece. Otherwise you'll waste your time, time you could use more effectively.

Having said all of that, you can do whatever you want, I'm just giving advice, from experience.
 

faridmon

Member
DQ VII for the 3DS was a very fun game! I think the game was fun to play, while also being challenging to read. There's a lot of vocabulary words that are weird because it's in a fantasy setting, but the furigana really helps with all of that. There is also scripts online as well as videos on youtube if you ever get stuck and don't know where to go, etc.

Thanks!

Yeah I am looking forward to that point.
 
I agree that there's a different value in reading educational, language stuff, and reading stuff that's just made for entertainment. Obviously the latter is way more interesting but it's pretty pointless to jump in without an understanding of the fundamentals. The best approach is probably to have a good study textbook (such as Genki) and indulge in manga or whatever as a supplement.

In university my study schedule went:
Semester 1 - Complete Genki 1
Semester 2 - Complete Genki 2
Semester 3/4 - Complete Tobira (Content and Multimedia book and Kanji book simultaneously)
Semester 5/6 - Exchange program (Waseda University) used advanced level textbooks

I'd say only after this point was I really comfortable reading pure entertainment products, and still I struggle with vocabulary! Memrise is my best friend right now.
Also in my experience talking to young Japanese people is quite eye opening, in that you have to throw out a lot of the rules you'd been taught, but I do believe you got to learn them to be able to play around with the language. Also keigo will never not suck.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
The most important point from Resilient's posts is that, if you're gonna be reading manga/games, know what you're getting into, and know enough Japanese that you're able to tell what's useful and what's not. If you don't already have a solid grasp of grammar, style and basic vocabulary, you'll have a hard time and/or acquire bad habits.

I mean, it's just like when people say you should learn to speak in -masu form before learning the neutral form.

Also, manga and games should not be your only form of 'practice' obviously... But they help, and they're always better than not practicing at all. What will give you the most practice are very text-heavy works. Reading Naruto is garbage because it's shounen, and shounen has the worst dialogue filled with the same clichés. Death Note might be contrived, but you'll get your money's worth when it comes to complex paragraphs and logical reasoning. Likewise, play the more clever RPGs and visual novels, not moe shit for babies and weebs. All of that requires a decent knowledge of the language obviously. Don't start reading anything until you can at least pass N2 of the JLPT.

Reading actual novels and news will obviously be best.
 
Don't start reading anything until you can at least pass N2 of the JLPT.

I agree with everything you said except for this. I played Professor Layton vs. Ace Attorney a few months after passing the N4, and while it was really tough and I had to look up a ton of words and grammar points, I managed to make my way through it and seeing those new grammar points used repeatedly really helped to lock that stuff in to the point where I knew some N2 constructs before I finished studying for the N3.

Start reading whenever you feel like challenging yourself, but do so knowing that it's going to be a hell of a slog at first, and that even though it may be taxing and exhausting, it's not actually "studying," it's just practicing what you've studied while banging your head against new stuff at the same time. If you catalogue the new stuff you can make flash cards or anki decks out of them and use those to study, but without doing something active like that, the reading is only going to passively refresh things you already know or which you take the time to look up in depth.
 

Alanae

Member
Problem with manga is that as opposed to being a test of your reading ability, it's actually going to be a test of your understanding of spoken Japanese in a ridiculously stylish form. Personally, for reading, and if you're going for language immersion, I would recommend a book, magazine or newspaper.

that is something that is going to vary a lot between manga due to factors like the writer's style, use of narration, content, etc.
I've read manga that feel more like of a wall of text with some pictures rather than a comic.

In any case, the situation you envision will probably be fine if you keep in mind that not all Japanese writing is going to be same. It is, after all not a test to measure your reading level, but rather practice material to improve it.

I do agree that varying out your reading is a good idea though.
There's sure to be other things that are interesting to read than only just manga, be it novels, articles, jptwitter, etc.
 

Sakura

Member
Eh, I dunno, I studied Japanese to play games and read manga, and I could pass the N1 easy. Like, sure, if all you are reading is Yotsubato and playing Pokemon then yeah obviously that isn't going to take you any where too far. But there are plenty of games (visual novels for example) and manga that use more complex words, aren't entirely dialogue, etc.
It will also help you get a more solid grasp of grammar even if the words themselves are not that complex, and will improve your reading speed which is important when you want to read something longer.
Most importantly, in my opinion, is that it's also fun. It's a lot easier to learn something, for something to stick into your head, when you are enjoying the process.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
There's definitely something to be said for putting some fun in the mix. Not only is it much easier to keep your motivation up if you're doing something fun, but it also sticks much better than rote memorization.

As much as I'd like it to be true, we're not all like I'm an expert, if only because we don't have as much time and energy to devote to the whiteboard method as he used to have. Plus that method doesn't actually teach you how to read.

Besides, when I think back on how I learned English as a second language, I owe 90% of my proficiency to games, random media and internet forums. Not reading the news or painstakingly long rote memorization sessions. The only difference here - and admittedly, it's a pretty big one - is that Japanese is very different from our languages and puts a ton of emphasis on written language. So don't fool yourselves into thinking you can completely do without some amount of dry memorization/practice exercises. You'll definitely have to do a bit of that too, and to stay motivated... But have fun as well, especially if you're not planning to use Japanese for professional reasons.

Whatever your means of learning and practicing are, don't feel too guilty about it. Just try to gauge how helpful it is and go from there. I'll take text-heavy manga or games over a lousy textbook any day. Not saying textbooks necessarily suck... But they're textbooks, and some of them do suck.
 

JimPanzer

Member
I really don't know why DQ is mentioned so often as a good entry-level game for Japanese learners. I passed the N2 but DQ11 still gave me problems due to the amount of words you will most likely never ever encounter again outside of DQ games. Sure it has Furigana, but that only matters if Kanji are your weakness (and they will stay your weakness if you rely on furigana).

I guess most people will consider Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2 (or the series in general) above the Dragon Quest games when it comes to the difficulty of the language used in it, but I can play that game almost as fast as I would in English or my mother tongue. The great thing about "visual novels" is that you have to read to get anything out of them. In RPG's you can deceive yourself into thinking you are studying but actually you are just grinding for levels or loot while avoiding dialogue as much as possible.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Honestly it's been a while since I last played DQ9, so I might not be remembering things clearly enough. However, I do remember playing a bit of Ace Attorney Investigations (the spin-off where you play as Edgeworth) and having a much harder time understanding everything in that game than in DQ.
 
I really don't know why DQ is mentioned so often as a good entry-level game for Japanese learners. I passed the N2 but DQ11 still gave me problems due to the amount of words you will most likely never ever encounter again outside of DQ games. Sure it has Furigana, but that only matters if Kanji are your weakness (and they will stay your weakness if you rely on furigana).

I guess most people will consider Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2 (or the series in general) above the Dragon Quest games when it comes to the difficulty of the language used in it, but I can play that game almost as fast as I would in English or my mother tongue. The great thing about "visual novels" is that you have to read to get anything out of them. In RPG's you can deceive yourself into thinking you are studying but actually you are just grinding for levels or loot while avoiding dialogue as much as possible.

DQ is nice because there's a lot of dialog, there's furigana in some of them, variety in style, and it's all fairly simple to understand (barring some fantasy words), but you're right. It's easy to avoid the dialog and give in to other poor study habits. It requires discipline to actually play it in a productive way, which doesn't work for some people. It goes well for me because I'm obsessive about reading every bit of dialog that I can, but it's not a great primary study tool for most people. It's a secondary, fun study.

Also really, the benefits of just going through Tae Kim's site or Genki 1 and 2 over a couple weeks, a month, however long it takes, and then referring to them every now and again can't be overstated. You don't need to sit down and grind out workbook pages (though do at least some exercises because learning is multifaceted, even if you don't intend to write it helps with reading and the mindset, etc etc), but just having a grammar foundation in makes reading infinitely easier and more productive. You won't need to look up as many words because you can now legitimately understand/break apart the context. You'll recognize when a word is in a different form or tense and can derive meaning from that.
 

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
I need some recommendations for some reading that I could do on my spare time. I used to read those Detective Conan comics many years ago because they were pretty fun with the mystery aspects, but I was wondering which other comics have hiragana over the kanji?

I could visit Book Off after work tomorrow and pick up something.

Or, if there is a PS4 game I could pick up and play that lets me stop the dialogue so I have time to read it. Edit: I'm now thinking about Yakuza games. Would those be ok? I used to play 1 and 2 but haven't tried newer ones.
 

Jintor

Member
Today I spent ten minutes trying to work out what a particular pair of kanji was until I realized it was the kanji for "miso" which I had never ever seen before
 

KtSlime

Member
Today I spent ten minutes trying to work out what a particular pair of kanji was until I realized it was the kanji for "miso" which I had never ever seen before

What's the most polite dish in Japan? 御御御付け. Hehehe.

As to games for beginners of Japanese, Pokemon is probably best, however I learned using DQ. DQ may have some words that you won't commonly use, however if you want to talk to other people about the NHK 時代劇, or what happened in Jump, or about an exhibit in a museum they are still useful words.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
The most gaijin-friendly game in my experience is Zelda Phantom Hourglass on the DS. I don't know how the following installments handle this, but in PH you could have the furigana hidden, and when you touch a kanji it would display the reading. That was a brilliant feature for a Japanese learner.

Too bad PH is a garbage game and characters/story are incredibly boring and useless in Zelda games (yeah I said it).
 

Makai

Member
I just remembered I have a Japanese 3DS - that should help. Maybe I'll get Majora's Mask - I played the original 15 years ago and helping people in Clocktown should be good. I'm supplementing with Waniksni but the pace is ludicrously slow, especially since I recognize many of the fundamental characters from Chinese. Maybe two minutes of work and then I have to wait 24 hours to continue.
 

Hasemo

(;・∀・)ハッ?
I guess most people will consider Dai Gyakuten Saiban 2 (or the series in general) above the Dragon Quest games when it comes to the difficulty of the language used in it, but I can play that game almost as fast as I would in English or my mother tongue. The great thing about "visual novels" is that you have to read to get anything out of them. In RPG's you can deceive yourself into thinking you are studying but actually you are just grinding for levels or loot while avoiding dialogue as much as possible.
Like you mentioned, I think that Japanese used in DGS2 is much harder than the one in DQ, but I don't think I agree with your conclusion. Maybe it's just me, but when faced with a ton of text (like a book or a VN) in a foreign language in which I have a certain level of proficiency, I tend to just keep reading, despite not understanding all the words.

Since I usually understand what's happening and it's certain nuances that fly over my head, I don't feel like I'm missing much. That said, if I actually had the text in my mother tongue, I'd probably be surprised how much I didn't get from it. Obviously, I'm not talking about the broad strokes, but the smaller details.

While I might be wrong, I don't think that not being stuck on on the text part of a game necessarily means that your understanding of the text in question is better.
I do agree with your point about having to read (VN) vs. just cruising along to the next marker (RPGs) - as for the latter, I was able to "successful" play and finish quests in Korean MMOs with 0 knowledge of Hangul, just because they were all WoW-clones so I was just following the markers.
 

JimPanzer

Member
I just remembered I have a Japanese 3DS - that should help. Maybe I'll get Majora's Mask - I played the original 15 years ago and helping people in Clocktown should be good. I'm supplementing with Waniksni but the pace is ludicrously slow, especially since I recognize many of the fundamental characters from Chinese. Maybe two minutes of work and then I have to wait 24 hours to continue.

It's only the first few levels of WaniKani that are slow. As someone who finished it (still about 2500 items to burn, but I'm level 60), I can't praise it enough. Just remember that WaniKani only teaches you Kanji. While it gives you some basic vocab, you'll still need an additional source for studying that (be it Anki, Memrise, iKnow...).

Having said that, in my opinion studying grammar should be your priority. It's much easier and faster to look up kanji or a word you don't know as looking up a grammar point is. When you encounter an unknown word you'll be at least aware that you don't know said word, while you may not even recognize a grammar point when seeing it for the first time.

I played OOT and MM in Japanese and don't think they are good for beginners, but if I remember correctly they should have furigana.
The first games I played in Japanese were Animal Crossing and after that Youkai Watch 2. They both have furigana, easy grammar, a lot of daily-life vocab and an easy-to-read font.
 

ekurisona

Member
found this fan-translated story-guide for dq xi on the dragon quest subreddit...

http://www.sleepy-racoon.de/translation-guides/dragon-quest-xi/

DISCLAIMER: this guide is nothing more than a private way of studying japanese. it is no professional translation. none of the names are official. none of the maps are from any official source. everything found here was transferred over from the game by me. i do not want to make any money out of it! it's just that, instead of looking at the book in my bookshelf, i decided to share it. simply to spread my love for DRAGON QUEST and offer a little help to people who, like me, are trying to learn japanese to play gems like this game in their original language.

source
 
JLPT prebooking for my city (country probably) just went up..

I'm sure if I studied a lot more I could aim higher, but .. that doesn't seem likely.
 

Resilient

Member
found this fan-translated story-guide for dq xi on the dragon quest subreddit...

http://www.sleepy-racoon.de/translation-guides/dragon-quest-xi/



source

this is pretty cool, and props to the person who put this out here for people who don't want to learn Japanese.

It's a great guide for the game and you can tell the person behind it was very particular with it, but from a quick glance, I'd say if you're trying to play the game and sneak some study in, skip something like this. Work all that stuff out on your own and build your own memory links to certain words, or phrases, or grammar used by NPCs/characters. Rather than just looking at the work somebody has already done for it. It's like looking at the exam answers from your friend before taking the exam for yourself. If you get stuck somewhere for more than an hour though...take a peak (lol).

There were a few minor errors when I flicked through it, and they totally made it clear from the start that that may be the case. Be careful with picking up bad habits or mistakes. EG The first chapter, the wrong reading was stuck with a basic Kanji; 方・かた is typically used for a person while 方・ほう is used for direction. They had 方・かた for "direction". I know that's nitpicking, but just an example - I'm not trying to shit on the other 95% of it which is neat.
 

kubus

Member
Fuck, I realized too late that the December JLPT registration deadline in Dusseldorf closes on the 7th this month and apparently I only have one official photo of myself at home (was gonna have my bf send in my application from the Netherlands because it's faster and cheaper than sending it from Japan). No way I can take a photo here in Japan and send it to Germany within 3 days :').

That really sucks. Looks like I'll have to take it in London then... Looks so much better organized anyway. I can just register for it and pay the fee online and the deadline is in October. Meanwhile for Dusseldorf they expect me to put 60 euro in an envelope and mail it to them :/. (The fee in London is higher though)

Now to actually study for it... Going for N1 right away D:
 

Jintor

Member
Uh... Are the requirements that stringent? I registered in JPN but I'm pretty sure I just took some dumb cellphone shot of me against a white wall
 

KtSlime

Member
Uh... Are the requirements that stringent? I registered in JPN but I'm pretty sure I just took some dumb cellphone shot of me against a white wall

It varies from country to country, the last time I took one in America they didn't even require a photo, but that was about 6 or 7 years ago now.
 

kubus

Member
Uh... Are the requirements that stringent? I registered in JPN but I'm pretty sure I just took some dumb cellphone shot of me against a white wall
I have no idea. The application form for Dusseldorf has two spaces to place photos and the requirements are really strict, like it has to be 3-4 cm, write your name on the back, no colored background, has to be photo paper, etc. etc. :/

I already emailed them to clarify but don't know if I'll hear an answer in time. Seems the guidelines are different per country. Some friends who applied in Japan said they only needed one photo (which is why I thought I was gonna be ok with just 1 too :/)
 

Hypron

Member
What do they even do with the photos anyway? They give you one of them back on your exam slip but do they just put the other one in their database or something? Because the certificate doesn't even have your picture.
 

Alanae

Member
A bit late but here goes.

OK, I don't want this to sound mean, but you're being a bit pedantic here. Of course it will lead to it. It's just not very effective. That's why I said "at best it will expand your vocab". I read J-news, and read manga/play games in Japanese. You're pretty fluent (from what I understand anyway), so you and I both know very well that it does not translate well at all. In fact, I'd go as far to say that they're both completely different styles of reading and the only thing that translates is they both have particles in them. Reading something like My Hero Academia is totally different to reading anything of importance on yahoo.jp. Except the comments.

Like I said. If it's your goal, go for it. Just don't kid yourself; cause you'll be in for a rude awakening later.



OK, this is another great point and anybody who is studying Japanese seriously, or plans to, should take note. The bolded here, Alanae kinda touched on, but Spork articulated better (sorry Alanae, don't be mad). HOWEVER - Alanae and Spork will back me here - the benefit from this comes only after you've got a moderate degree of grammar knowledge under your belt. I assure you (again, speaking from experience here), it will just fall straight out of your head otherwise. Because it's garbage. Do yourself a massive favour. Stick to the books for just a little bit more. Tough it out. Finish the Genki 1 and 2 or something, I don't know. Then buy an N4 study book, absorb the grammar. Then try reading One Piece. Otherwise you'll waste your time, time you could use more effectively.

Having said all of that, you can do whatever you want, I'm just giving advice, from experience.

Most of my reading ability comes from reading all sorts entertainment, be it manga, visual novels, light novels, etc, and all the articles/dictionary entries I read explaining the grammar, phrases and words I didn't know yet.

I think that more so than the specifics of what it is you're reading exactly what is far more important is just to have the dedication to look up, ask about, try to understand the things (words, grammar, etc) you come across that you don't know yet and to make sure to look them up again whenever you didn't fully remember them the last time.
Reading the things you want to/care for is a great help in sustaining that determination

If you can do that, then wont matter which/how many study books your stare at before trying to read things.
(That said, having read up on some basic grammar will make it a lot easier to actually manage to do so and will save you a lot of time in struggling hard with things that you'd probably would have had properly explained to you by a beginner guide/textbook in the span of a few pages) .which is why I keep recommending people to spend a week or two to read through tae kim before taking the plunge).

You can think of this as being a dynamic form of textbook, as it'll make you study things in the order of them being important to your current situation and with the more commonly used grammar being more likely to pop up (and thus you'll learn them faster).
Being able to immediately apply the knowledge you get right away in "real" situations also does wonders for how well

The point I've been trying to make is that learning from reading things works additionally, as you read different things from different writers you keep adding new things to your knowledge base while getting better at the act of reading itself also.

Once you can read decently, which is something you can achieve from reading enough of whatever (it's not like the Japanese language switches to using different sets of grammar/rules/etc based on just what medium its currently residing in), filling any holes in your vocab becomes as simple as just switching to focusing on reading works in the field that contains them for a bit.

As much as I'd like it to be true, we're not all like I'm an expert, if only because we don't have as much time and energy to devote to the whiteboard method as he used to have. Plus that method doesn't actually teach you how to read.

Probably won't be much of a surprise for me to say this, but I have to say I really dislike the whiteboard method. It's almost impressive in how far it goes in draining out every bit of fun there is to be had in what could be an enjoyable experience of learning a new language, replacing it with a hellish grind that is likely going to burn out many people and help further spread the idea that Japanese is impossible to learn.
All the respect to you if you can pull it off doing this, but from my point of view it seems like such a waste of what could have been a fun time.

Besides, when I think back on how I learned English as a second language, I owe 90% of my proficiency to games, random media and internet forums. Not reading the news or painstakingly long rote memorization sessions. The only difference here - and admittedly, it's a pretty big one - is that Japanese is very different from our languages and puts a ton of emphasis on written language. So don't fool yourselves into thinking you can completely do without some amount of dry memorization/practice exercises. You'll definitely have to do a bit of that too, and to stay motivated... But have fun as well, especially if you're not planning to use Japanese for professional reasons.
While there are things where straight grinding it out is going to be unavoidable (kana for instance), I think that for most things you can kind of avoid it by combining it with more interesting things, grammar you can learn by combining it with the reading of interesting (well, they were interesting for me at least) articles and applying it, recognizing kanji and learning vocab you can learn by combining it with reading things, learning how to recognize words through listening you can combine with listening to things with voice acting or with Japanese subs, production can be combined with communicating with people, and so on.
The big omission here is the handwriting of kanji, but even with that you could pull it off to some degree by trying to writing out thing that are some what relevant (eg. shopping lists, diary entries, letters, etc) instead of only grinding out walls of kanji.

--------------------------
re: furigana
furigana only becomes something that will screws you over if you let it be.
two scenarios:

1) you use the furigana as a method to quickly obtain the reading of the word without having to spending ages radical/handwriting search it (which quickly becomes unbearable if you have to do it often enough), when doing this you make sure to look at the kanji that belongs to the word underneath and try to link the reading to it.
result: good, sooner or later you'll start ignoring most furigana because its just getting in the way or get annoyed at it because there's so much of it covering the screen everywhere (for a good example of the latter, see the japanese jlpt site, I mean just look at it)

2) You fully ignore the kanji and only look at the easy to read furigana on the top as if it were a bridge over a river of strokes.
result: bad, you end up knowing a lot of vocab which you wont be able to recognize when its written in kanji without furigana to help you.

Just like with the avoiding npc dialog and other sources of text in DQ, it's something that comes down to whether you can avoid the temptation to take the easy way out.
 

Resilient

Member
A bit late but here goes.

Most of my reading ability comes from reading all sorts entertainment, be it manga, visual novels, light novels, etc, and all the articles/dictionary entries I read explaining the grammar, phrases and words I didn't know yet.

I think that more so than the specifics of what it is you're reading exactly what is far more important is just to have the dedication to look up, ask about, try to understand the things (words, grammar, etc) you come across that you don't know yet and to make sure to look them up again whenever you didn't fully remember them the last time.
Reading the things you want to/care for is a great help in sustaining that determination...[snip]

You know what, this you're right. A lot of what I wrote came from my own personal failures in the past (before I got serious with my study and picked up whiteboard). Up until then I would kid myself that I was studying (reading textbooks) while watching/"reading" Japanese content (mostly anime/games), and I had nothing to show for it up until that time. It was only once I got serious with grammar and Kanji that I started to get anything out of watching/reading/playing stuff in Japanese.

The link there wasn't so much the grammar knowledge, but the determination. So I agree with you; if you're determined enough and you find it enjoyable (which is always important) then read stuff. Just don't get slack or lazy with it and you should be set, and at the least, read Tae Kim for a week or two.

For people who are going to start playing games/reading manga, here's what I do whenever I do it. I don't know every Japanese word or reading, so if I see something I don't know, I write it down in a notepad (both kanji, hiragana reading and English meaning). I review the previous days "work" the next day. It really does help. If there is some grammar I don't understand, but I recognise it, I'll Google the pattern and type 'weblio' to get a good slew of responses. From here you can either learn the pattern (using JGRAM, Renshuu.org) or refresh yourself on example sentences at Weblio.

Just note I have a strong foundation though, after doing whiteboard. My handwriting definitely got a workout after those 3 months, so writing Kanji isn't an issue for me. You may find it difficult and time consuming to handwrite the kanji especially if you don't know the stroke order. But hey, it's another opportunity to practice that too. Don't skimp out on any part of this and you should be set. And soon enough you'll find yourself powering through whatever it is you're reading; which is a great feeling.

I got burnt out hard at the start of the year, going way too hard into textbooks. Ended up taking a break for a few months. Now I mostly read books, watch J-dramas and play games, with typical book study balanced in between. Much better, and way more fun. Especially the dramas.
 

Porcile

Member
No idea what No, David is but a popular choice for a kids book would be 魔女の宅急便.
 

dani_dc

Member
Fuck, I realized too late that the December JLPT registration deadline in Dusseldorf closes on the 7th this month and apparently I only have one official photo of myself at home (was gonna have my bf send in my application from the Netherlands because it's faster and cheaper than sending it from Japan). No way I can take a photo here in Japan and send it to Germany within 3 days :').

That really sucks. Looks like I'll have to take it in London then... Looks so much better organized anyway. I can just register for it and pay the fee online and the deadline is in October. Meanwhile for Dusseldorf they expect me to put 60 euro in an envelope and mail it to them :/. (The fee in London is higher though)

Now to actually study for it... Going for N1 right away D:

You could take a photo, scan it at a conbini, send it to your boyfriend and have him print it back home.

Bit of an hassle but maybe a bit less so than going to London.

Good luck with N1!
I'm tempted to try N2 but I don't think I have enough time to study enough until then.
 

Juice

Member
I've been writing a web app that makes it easy to search example sentences, see the word breakdown, generates furigana, and gives quick links to translation apps.

This weekend I've been mired in the necessary algorithm to split a reading out over a word that's a mix of kanji and non-kanji (you don't want furigana over hiragana, after all). It's a surprisingly annoying problem, and I'm finally realizing why so few pieces of software attempt to automatically render furigana even when the reading is known.
 

Hypron

Member
Which should I focus on first, learning Hiragana or Katakana? And should I just skip over Romaji?

Learn hiragana, then katakana. It should take you a week at a leisurely pace. The only time you should use rōmaji is when you're writing about Japanese words to people that don't speak the language — so it won't help you learn the language.
 
At first glance, I was under the impression that this is a difficult language to grasp, but it takes time and effort to learn any foreign language.
 
Yeah, in Ireland no photo was required for my JLPT registration.
Fuck, I realized too late that the December JLPT registration deadline in Dusseldorf closes on the 7th this month and apparently I only have one official photo of myself at home (was gonna have my bf send in my application from the Netherlands because it's faster and cheaper than sending it from Japan). No way I can take a photo here in Japan and send it to Germany within 3 days :').

That really sucks. Looks like I'll have to take it in London then... Looks so much better organized anyway. I can just register for it and pay the fee online and the deadline is in October. Meanwhile for Dusseldorf they expect me to put 60 euro in an envelope and mail it to them :/. (The fee in London is higher though)

Now to actually study for it... Going for N1 right away D:
Hopefully you can get sorted.. but come to Dublin, we can celebrate together!
 

Resilient

Member
At first glance, I was under the impression that this is a difficult language to grasp, but it's take time and effort to learn any foreign language.

it does take effort, and it's not too difficult. then when you master the power of the hokage you'll become the fifth hokage. ganbarou!
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Not really sure how one can learn romaji.

It's pretty much just going "oh that sounds like futari, lets type futari". I guess you need to know the sounds so you don't write foo. And, I guess if you never learned the roman alphabet...
 

KtSlime

Member
Not really sure how one can learn romaji.

It's pretty much just going "oh that sounds like futari, lets type futari". I guess you need to know the sounds so you don't write foo. And, I guess if you never learned the roman alphabet...

Not that romaji is much of a skill, but native English speakers who do not speak Japanese have a tendency of saying the romaji words like this:

"So I walked through oHmatsanD to get to ShebiyAh to do some carry Oh ki, then I left and knew I had too much saKiii and threw up on DohgAynZak".

People who are not going to learn Japanese should at least learn how to read romaji correctly.
 

kubus

Member
You could take a photo, scan it at a conbini, send it to your boyfriend and have him print it back home.

Bit of an hassle but maybe a bit less so than going to London.

Good luck with N1!
I'm tempted to try N2 but I don't think I have enough time to study enough until then.
Yeah the problem is that the requirements were really specific about the photos: has to be a photo on actual photo paper and stuff, so scanning something in and printing it again would only work if we had a printer that can do that + the right paper. Or a print shop. (which we don't :p)

Anyway I got a reply from the institute and they were okay with having one color copy. So I just sent my application to Dusseldorf... it cost 40 euro to have it delivered in time :').

At least now I have more motivation to actually pass this thing :p. And that's why you should apply for N2! If you know you have the exam coming up you will MAKE time to study! *muscle emoji*

Yeah, in Ireland no photo was required for my JLPT registration.

Hopefully you can get sorted.. but come to Dublin, we can celebrate together!
Ugh yeah seems it's just Dusseldorf being a prick, lol. I should definitely check Ireland out sometime, but I'll do that when I don't have to worry about any exams! :D
 

Juice

Member
I've been writing a web app that makes it easy to search example sentences, see the word breakdown, generates furigana, and gives quick links to translation apps.

This weekend I've been mired in the necessary algorithm to split a reading out over a word that's a mix of kanji and non-kanji (you don't want furigana over hiragana, after all). It's a surprisingly annoying problem, and I'm finally realizing why so few pieces of software attempt to automatically render furigana even when the reading is known.

I just pushed up a video demo of the app. PM me if you're interested in it, either as a user or contributor: https://twitter.com/searls/status/904727718700486657
 

dofry

That's "Dr." dofry to you.
Thanks for the tip on the JLPT schedule. I will register later this month to just test my current proficiency.
 

Alanae

Member
You know what, this you're right. A lot of what I wrote came from my own personal failures in the past (before I got serious with my study and picked up whiteboard). Up until then I would kid myself that I was studying (reading textbooks) while watching/"reading" Japanese content (mostly anime/games), and I had nothing to show for it up until that time. It was only once I got serious with grammar and Kanji that I started to get anything out of watching/reading/playing stuff in Japanese.

Anime is a tricky medium to start out with because it'll take quite some prep before you'll even know what you're looking for in the cloud of sounds that you'll experience.
You'd have to strap in beforehand for some basic grammar knowledge and probably be prepared to take things very slowly , pausing and rewinding often (probably harming your experience of the show in the progress) and use either none or Japanese subtitles. It seems to be quite tempting for people to instead just use English subs and try to listen "extra hard", but I don't think you'd be very likely to pick up much beyond phrases and words that are often used in isolation that way.

Any popular kids books? Something on the level of No, David.
I'm don't know much about Japanese children's books but I happened to across this http://imgur.com/a/RvUvz lately which I found pretty cute.
It would probably be easier to find things if you were willing to make a bit of a jump and tried reading manga aimed at kids (shounen/shoujo manga).

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Isn't learning romaji kind of what what you already do when you learn kana?
 
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