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[I'm an expert]

what's everybody been watching lately?

I've been getting into 世界の果てまでイッテＱ！「せかいのはてまで」　and 謎解きバトルTORE!「なぞとき」

I like 世界の果てまでイッテＱ！cause it's funny and there is a lot of banter between the people on it. It's a variety show? I dunno, I'm only just getting into this stuff now.

謎解きバトルTORE! is also neat, not as funny as イッテＱ！, it's a game show. The contestants get put into Indiana Jones style ..situations. The quiz sections can be pretty educational, actually threw me quite a bit when I first started watching.

I can post some more impressions + things I'm studying atm if people are interested. I'd say these two are pretty good for listening study. Combined with the nice and neat NHK news 1 min video clips. Those are made much easier due to the article basically being read out - obviously read the article once you've done the listening study.

itteq is such an old show.. it's funny hearing someone basically just discover it. i just watched the first ep of yutori but i dont recommend it to anyone who doesnt understand j-millenial culture. for someone like me who watched these kids grow up and who now hires them, its hilarious. ~10 days till i finally head back.. fuck me

 

[Porcile]

When I talk with a client I don't say "lemme git dat fo you" I say let me get that for you. No?

Not sure what you mean by second point, you were expecting shit like docchi? Those can have very curt, dismissive connotations outside of close friends, but even then the language you would use in a school is not the gutter talk you'd use outside.

I get it, and understand why they do it. It sounds politer, maybe even a bit clearer over the phone as well. The last thread and this thread spent ages talking about the difference between ee and ei, and yet here's something which goes against what any textbook will tell you (pronouncing desu as dess rather than voicing the su). Then again I doubt the textbook audience is ever going to have a use for day-to-day office level Japanese, but just found it interesting is all, and was curious whether or not it's regionally specific or not.

Same with the dochira, sochira thing. Most textbooks will cover dore, kore and so on as fundamental basics, Yet so far I've seldom heard them used, even in casual conversations among the kids.

 

[I'm an expert]

..what textbook teaches to pronounce shit with out the su? and is that what you were talking about? dore? youre fine then

 

[Porcile]

..what textbook teaches to pronounce shit with out the su? and is that what you were talking about? dore? youre fine then

It's the devoicing thing I think. You are taught to pronounce the u in desu or masu but it's not as strong, so it comes out closer to dess and mass than to de-su and ma-su. Maybe I'm just not emphasising how clearly and regularly they say the su part while on the phone, but not in conversation with each other in the staff room if they're using the same kind of speaking style.

 

[I'm an expert]

i get what youre saying, but in most normal settings you pronounce the su.. not even anything that formal. if youre really going SUE then its the formalest of formal. just saying no book actually says go ssss instead sssu

 

[Resilient]

you two have the nerdiest discussions going round

 

[TickleMeElbow]

i get what youre saying, but in most normal settings you pronounce the su.. not even anything that formal. if youre really going SUE then its the formalest of formal

Yeah people people pronounce the "su", but it's often sort of "flat". Like your lips and shit don't fully commit to the "u" part lol. I can see where the confusion might come from.

 

[Porcile]

It was a dumb question to begin with because I guess I already knew the answer. I understand they are being polite/very formal, and was probably more curious if it carries over to all regions and dialects. They are definitely going full sue.

This is just my four week dumbass gaijin brain working shit out.

 

[I'm an expert]

go live in kagawa or gunma or nagasaki.. it will all be different. where you are is some of the boringest japanese

 

[Aizo]

Would others agree with this explanation of the difference in nuance between やっと、結局、とうとう、etc.?

やっと、とうとう、ようやく、ついに、は、待ち望んだことが起こった場合につかいます（例：　やっと/とうとう/ようやく/ついに/プレイステーションの発売日だ。）　ただし、やっと/ようやく、については、長く待ちすぎて少し疲れているニュアンスがあります（例：やっと/ようやく+算数の問題の答えがわかった/仕事がおわった。ここでとうとう/ついに、を使うと、待ちくたびれたというニュアンスはなくなり、代わりに、起こった結果に対するよろこび、うれしさのニュアンスが強くなります。
結局、をつかう場合には、起こったことが話し手にとってよいことではない、または下の2番目の例のように、いったん悪いことがおこることを予想していたものが、おこらないことになった場合につかいます（例①結局、明日のパーティは中止になった。②結局、残業はしなくてすんだ。（これらの場合、やっと、とうとう、ようやく、ついに、は使えません）

I didn't realize that about 結局.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Would others agree with this explanation of the difference in nuance between やっと、結局、とうとう、etc.?

I didn't realize that about 結局.

Yeah. It may help to link it with あげく in your mind. My thesaurus actually has the note 「あげくの果て」

 

[Resilient]

what language is that

 

[GYODX]

Were any of you guys familiar with this usage of も?

その他に、「詠嘆のモ」と言われる用法があります。

　　　　　巨人も弱くなったねえ。

　この場合、他にも弱くなったチームがあって（例えば阪神）、それと同じよ うに、というわけではありません。たんにそのＮについて、述語が表す内容が 起こったことを（軽く）詠嘆的に述べているだけです。

　　　　　俺も年をとったなあ。

　　　　　あんたも馬鹿だねえ。

　　　　　秋もようやく深まって、・・・

From 庭三郎's book.

First instinct when you see N＋も in its 係助詞 role in affirmative sentences is to think "also", so this usage is quite bothersome.

 

[PreyingShark]

Are you talking about how も can be used for emphasis? I was aware of that, though I never utilized that myself.

 

[GYODX]

Are you talking about how も can be used for emphasis? I was aware of that, though I never utilized that myself.

Well 庭三郎 calls it the "exclamation も". This usage is distinct from the も in stuff like 「何もない」「求めもしない」「何回も」「百年も」etc., which is what I usually think of as "も used for emphasis".

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Were any of you guys familiar with this usage of も?


From 庭三郎's book.

First instinct when you see N＋も in its 係助詞 role in affirmative sentences is to think "also", so this usage is quite bothersome.

It's usually pretty intuitive based on context, and it's not as though the meanings are opposed to each other or anything. To use the first example there, the context would probably be something like
今年の野球はつまんねぇ。巨人も弱くなったねえ。Based on the context from the first line "Even the Giants are weak" is the obvious meaning, rather than "The Giants are weak too."

 

[Sakura]

Would others agree with this explanation of the difference in nuance between やっと、結局、とうとう、etc.?

I didn't realize that about 結局.

I'm not sure I agree with that explanation.
I ain't no pro Japanese speaker, but I don't think とうとう specifically fits with '待ち望んだことが起こった場合につかいます'.
とうとう as a word itself is more neutral and doesn't necessarily imply a positive result (待ち望ん&#12384. Like とうとう戦争が始まった or とうとうクビになった. Stuff like that isn't really something you were looking forward to but can still use the word.
やっと would be for something you wanted to happen, like やっと宿題が終わった、やっと内定をもらいました.

Like, I don't think you would ever say やっとクビになった、for example (unless you wanted to get fired) so I don't think とうとう fits with it.
At least, that is what my sensei told me.

 

[Kurita]

what's everybody been watching lately?

I've been getting into 世界の果てまでイッテＱ！「せかいのはてまで」　and 謎解きバトルTORE!「なぞとき」

I like 世界の果てまでイッテＱ！cause it's funny and there is a lot of banter between the people on it. It's a variety show? I dunno, I'm only just getting into this stuff now.

謎解きバトルTORE! is also neat, not as funny as イッテＱ！, it's a game show. The contestants get put into Indiana Jones style ..situations. The quiz sections can be pretty educational, actually threw me quite a bit when I first started watching.

I can post some more impressions + things I'm studying atm if people are interested. I'd say these two are pretty good for listening study. Combined with the nice and neat NHK news 1 min video clips. Those are made much easier due to the article basically being read out - obviously read the article once you've done the listening study.

I have to watch some Thomas Piketty "seminars" dubbed in Japanese for my Economy class. Sounds fun right?

I started watching the drama ゆとりですがなにか with Japanese subs. Writing down every word I don't know. It's a great slice of life (kinda) about the "Yutori" generation. Written by the guy behind Amachan so it's quite funny.

Aside from that I watch my usual shows like VS嵐 (don't judge me), 家、ついて行ってイイですか？and listen to The King's Place, a radio show hosted by bands I like.

 

[GYODX]

It's usually pretty intuitive based on context, and it's not as though the meanings are opposed to each other or anything. To use the first example there, the context would probably be something like
今年の野球はつまんねぇ。巨人も弱くなったねえ。Based on the context from the first line "Even the Giants are weak" is the obvious meaning, rather than "The Giants are weak too."

You can't really translate it as "even". It is distinct from the usage of もthat I think you're referring to. The point is that it functions exactly like は, but with an added nuance of emotion or even sentimentality.

Another example: ソウルにいるのも今夜きりです。

Edit: Here are the actual JP dictionary definitions. From 大辞林:

極端な事物を提示し，強調する。…さえも。 「聞いたこと－ない話」 「太っ腹の社長－，今度はまいったようだ」

What you're thinking of. Is distinct from

詠嘆・感動の意を表す。 「書き－書いたり，一日五千枚」 「こう－暑くてはやりきれない」

 

[TheSporkWithin]

You can't really translate it as "even". It is distinct from the usage of もthat I think you're referring to. The point is that it functions exactly like は, but with an added nuance of emotion or even sentimentality.

Another example: ソウルにいるのも今夜きりです。

Edit: Here are the actual JP dictionary definitions. From 大辞林:



What you're thinking of. Is distinct from

Ahh, I see now. I'm not sure whether I've actually seen it used that way then. The only examples I'm turning up in any of my reference materials are from extremely old texts. The examples in the site you linked earlier don't seem to be functioning in the same way either though...

EDIT: By this I mean to say...

　　　　　俺も年をとったなあ。

　　　　　あんたも馬鹿だねえ。

These "make sense" to me and don't strike me as complicated. The examples I'm turning up, like 「国はしも多にあれども」 and 「許多も狂ひに狂ひ」 or even the ones from the 大辞林, I can't make heads or tails of because I can't parse the sentences at all.

Second edit:

Okay, I see how it's different from the "even" も and that the context I added changed the meaning of the sentence in my previous post. I've definitely seen this "remarking/musing on something" も before, I just never stopped to think about why it was being used that way.

 

[PreyingShark]

I think of it as the :O も. "Emphasis" wasn't the right word, sry. Can't explain more here tho. 3DS使ってるんだ

 

[Rooster12]

Any good sites on the web where you can chat with Japanese people? Or find Japanese folks to chat with?

 

[Menitta]

Sick! I'm so glad this thread exists! I'll be taking Japanese 101 next semester.

 

[Sakura]

Any good sites on the web where you can chat with Japanese people? Or find Japanese folks to chat with?

I used to talk to people on japan-guide

 

[I'm an expert]

I don't even know what the convo is anymore. Secret, hidden usages of mo and how four different words are totally different.. alright then.

 

[Resilient]

itteq is such an old show.. it's funny hearing someone basically just discover it. i just watched the first ep of yutori but i dont recommend it to anyone who doesnt understand j-millenial culture. for someone like me who watched these kids grow up and who now hires them, its hilarious. ~10 days till i finally head back.. fuck me

gotta start somewhere though right? that's what i figured at least.

i think that was the problem for me, i never dived into this stuff because the guides you wrote, so im basically discovering whole new worlds+styles of TV, plus comedy. i have a page at the back of my book for the people on these shoes so i can recognise them in the wild lol.

 

[I'm an expert]

yep, gotta start somewhere. when are you coming over. enough talk.

 

[Resilient]

looking like the next year. about to finalise a house purchase which is the only thing stopping me atm.

 

[_Ryo_]

The Complete Guide is, ironically, not quite complete yet. Use the Grammar Guide instead.

I used that too, I think. As well as that sonic and knuckles land fangame. it was pretty good at teaching the kanji. xD.

Yeah, well, if you don't plan to keep in touch with language, don't bother studying it. I learned this the hard way.

I studied french for some reason a while back and got to the end of the course. I was by no means perfect on it, but I was pretty good. I barely have any contact with the language these days. I hear two or three songs in french every now and then but that's it. And I mostly forgot it. I belive that if I were to study it again, I'd learn way faster than the first time, but it ain't worth the effort if you're not going to use it.

Well, I had planned to keep in touch with the language but I was mainly doing it through anime and Japanese music, with infrequent help from language chatrooms and such but after a while, I always get burnt out on anime and well... yeah, I just stall. So, I'm trying to be serious now. I have several apps, I've been studying everyday. Kanji senpai, obenkyo, etc. I really need to relearn how to write the kana. I can read them fine.

 

[Resilient]

If you want to learn to write hiragana and katakana, let alone kanji, ditch the apps and get a notepad. No joke. It's the only way. I'd say it blows my mind that ppl can't write legibly/at all but it doesn't really surprise me. I guess you could make a case that you don't need the skill. I.e. Yoh only want to watch anime or play games.

 

[_Ryo_]

Nah, it wasn't that I only wanted to watch anime or play games, I was more interested in studying Japanese culture but felt I had to learn Japanese to understand it. Anime, games, songs seemed to help. Had to find ways to imerse myself in the language. And when I first started years ago I learned the kana first, including handwriting but again I never had a chance to actually use it frequently. I think a Japanese penpal or someone to send snailmail to would have helped immensely. Also, I am using a notebook to practice writing kanji. I absolutely hate writing on screens and computers. My English handwriting is terrible enough on its own, writing Japanese oh god, it would be a nightmare. Only time I write Japanese on computer is to look up radicals for kanji I don't know.

 

[Beckx]

If you want to learn to write hiragana and katakana, let alone kanji, ditch the apps and get a notepad. No joke. It's the only way. I'd say it blows my mind that ppl can't write legibly/at all but it doesn't really surprise me. I guess you could make a case that you don't need the skill. I.e. Yoh only want to watch anime or play games.

for me writing is the thing that finally connects all the memory wires. i can recognize a compound on sight but i still don't really "know" it because i'll find that i can't recall it from memory. writing is the bit where i force all the connections and then it's locked in.

 

[Resilient]

If you want to write Kanji you don't know but can fluke the stroke order try the iOS app 小学生の漢字 because it's quite good at registering, regardless if you miss a stroke order or 2. For something much more strict but which is also a dictionary try the iOS app Japanese. Both much more intuitive than a PC.

If you want to immerse yourself in the language, ditch the anime, music, games and go full Jdrama and news. Much more effective. I think expert wrote a post about why. I can link you in the morning. Or you could just take my word for it now. Qualifications: self assessed n5

Beck, exactly. There is a little bit more to it but writing the same stuff in sentences you see daily, really helps to lock them in for good.

 

[_Ryo_]

I still enjoy the aime and music, even if I get burnt out sometimes, still I will try adding some Jdramas to the routine. I used to watch some. Not never watched Japanese news. I tried reading news sites though.

Also I don't own any iOS devices so can't use those apps. Are they on Android, or are there any equivalents?

 

[Jintor]

Music in particular is kind of a trap. I always end up getting the melody memorised instead of the words.

You can end up with some odd words sticking in your mind though because of the way they're sung. がんじがらめ, for instance.

 

[Kurita]

Music in particular is kind of a trap. I always end up getting the melody memorised instead of the words.

You can end up with some odd words sticking in your mind though because of the way they're sung. がんじがらめ, for instance.

Well, music isn't really a good way to learn a language. People don't talk like they sing.

 

[Kaneda Shotaro]

I wish there was a J-Drama streaming service I could pay for. All the Japanese dramas available at my fingertips! Crunchyroll has so few and they've had one new series added...in 12 months. I can't watch the current ones anywhere nor watch ones I used to love from year ago.

The whiteboard method is working out pretty well. It fits for the way I like to study (just pure repetition and a lot of it). I'm trying not to go crazy with grammar and grammar rules. Just stick to a few rules and stop obsessing over every little detail about them because day to day conversations don't even adhere to every rule ever nor will I even be using some of the things I'm learning daily, it's just a good foundation.

 

[PreyingShark]

Everything I know about Japanese I learned from video games. オイラはすげーデース

 

[GloomyHitsuji]

Sorry if this has been covered already.
But, can someone recommend me a few websites/resources good for learning grammar? Haven't really look at the use of online resources before, so I don't know which one is good, I'm more interested in ones that cover the topic in more detailed depth.
(they can be in English or Japanese, but preferably on N2/3+ grammar, and not so much on the introductory stuff)

Thought I could read up on them while waiting for the bus or something, instead of opening and scrolling through Facebook, lol

The やっと、とうとう、ようやく、ついに and the use of 詠嘆のモ was very interesting, but I don't know where to find these "random" topics.

Thx

 

[Resilient]

I still enjoy the aime and music, even if I get burnt out sometimes, still I will try adding some Jdramas to the routine. I used to watch some. Not never watched Japanese news. I tried reading news sites though.

Also I don't own any iOS devices so can't use those apps. Are they on Android, or are there any equivalents?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188931209&postcount=8647

post I was talking about. you can apply the same thing to anime

 

[Aizo]

大辞林 still the recommended J-J dictionary app?

 

[_Ryo_]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=188931209&postcount=8647

post I was talking about. you can apply the same thing to anime

I think this would be a great point if I were trying to learn Japanese FROM anime, games, music, etc. I'm not. How can I explain it, I dunno. I'm not expecting to understand the structure of the language solely on the hands of those types of media, they're more like an aid to assist.

I never expect to learn complex grammar from a song, for example yet I can appreciate it as learning an artistic syle incase I want to try my hand at being creative myself.

Anyway, my goal for this year is to build up my grammar and vocabulary and try to start reading novellas, in Japanese. What are some more auditory guides? I dunno. Maybe try listening to Japanese podcasts? Definitely not up to that task yet as I said, I'm starting now from zero.

 

[Resilient]

大辞林 still the recommended J-J dictionary app?

I haven't found anything otherwise that I liked better, nor heard people recommend others since that discussion last year. Open for suggestions too, though!

Aizo, you're in Japan atm right? how are you traveling?

 

[Kansoku]

Speaking of J-J dictionaries, any free, offline, decent J-J dic app for Android?
The last time I tried I ended up getting an EPWING reader and using whatever EPWING I found online, but it was all pretty bad.

 

[PreyingShark]

Re: Songs, anime, etc.

Since all I do with Japanese these days is play games and do some game-related chatting on Twitter, I just do those things and look shit up as I go. Going by practice tests, I'd say I'm between N3 and N2 right now (passing N3 would be trivial but I would require at least a couple weeks of grinding to be N2-ready), and I'm fine with that because things are working well for my needs.

But the thing is, when I first started playing games in Japanese my reading speed was shit (1 kana/sec at best) and I had to look up like every fucking word and grammar point. When I sat down to play I pretty much spent like 2 - 3 hours looking up and reading shit and only like 20 minutes actually playing the damn game. If my high school sensei wasn't a sadist who had made me grind the conjugations into my soul so hard that I don't even know the rules in my head but get them right anyways I probably would have given up.

If you're serious about learning the language I recommend just buying a fucking whiteboard.

 

[Holundrian]

Would others agree with this explanation of the difference in nuance between やっと、結局、とうとう、etc.?

I didn't realize that about 結局.

Is this copied from an online dictionary if yes which one?

 

[PreyingShark]

Is this copied from an online dictionary if yes which one?

Google-fu got me https://hinative.com/ja/questions/42515

 

[Aizo]

大辞林 still the recommended J-J dictionary app?

Quoting myself to say that it's on sale. ¥1000 off. Didn't spork mention some companion apps? Any of them worth it? Some of those are on sale, too.

 

[TheSporkWithin]

Quoting myself to say that it's on sale. ¥1000 off. Didn't spork mention some companion apps? Any of them worth it? Some of those are on sale, too.

It supports jump lookups into at least some other apps by the same publisher. The only one I have is The Wisdom, which is a E>J dictionary. It's a well-designed app and the content is good with lots of example sentences, but it's very much an E>J dictionary, which means that while it has plenty of English idioms, it sometimes turns up a blank when searching for Japanese stuff (though you can tap to immediately search the same thing in the 大辞林, for what that's worth).

I do find it useful when trying to find the appropriate word in Japanese when writing or speaking, and while it can be used the other way, it's definitely not the best option. Not bad for 10 bucks though, if that's what it's on sale for. I spent more than twice that, I think.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

hey new thread!

afraid to ask for help so I sent gacha-pin a PM asking for help

still putting crazy phrases on my art as a puzzle
https://twitter.com/NazHz/status/725381899124879360

but subbing to the thread