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Let's clear up the reason for Squaresoft's "demise" and why Square and Enix merged
- Thread starter anaron
- Start date
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I've been wrong before. Many, many times. But I spend too much time on the Internet, so things I'm interested in tend to soak in after a while.
Millsington
Member
Stellar write up. Thanks for all the time you put into this.
That slide about X-2 sales proving FF needs more sequels... sigh.
That slide about X-2 sales proving FF needs more sequels... sigh.
Exactly. When I got to the graphs I was just like "I can't start the year like this..."
Kageshinzo
Member
I don't really know if it was by design or just coincidence, but back then, they used to release 3 FFs per system:
FF I-III --> NES
FF IV-VI --> SNES
FF VII-IX --> PS1
FF X-XII --> PS2
It was only last generation when they broke this. Most probably because of development issues with XIII. I was hoping they would keep up with it, and that with the abnormally long 7th generation, was wishing 7th gen FFs be better than its predecessors. FFXIV was a disaster, which they seemed to have corrected with ARR. FFXIII, well, let's just say it has dethroned FFVIII as the black sheep of the family.
I'd just like to say that until now I never realized that Final Fantasy IX, X and XI all came out within the span of two-to-three years. I never realized X basically came out a year after IX. Maybe it's because I didn't really start playing FF games until much later.
Seriously. I see OPs like this so often that if these guys got paid, NeoGAF could basically be it's own gaming news website.
The GAF Journal
Seriously things like this should become like mini review articles or published in online journals...
Something like NeoGaf Journals.
OP you have done an amazing job!
Seriously. I see OPs like this so often that if these guys got paid, NeoGAF could basically be it's own gaming news website.
The GAF Journal
TetraGenesis
Member
November 25, 2002. The date where everything went wrong.
Interesting read, yet a depressing one
I actually bought a Xbox 360 when I had the money so I could get Final Fantasy XIII and I thought it was one of the biggest disappointments ever. I ended up playing Lost Odyssey a few months later and I started to not regret buying a Xbox 360. Square-Enix has ruined the Final Fantasy name and it's sad to see what the IP has turned out to be and what is even sadder is the fact that Square-Enix is ruining all of the Final Fantasy games now (for example; Final Fantasy X HD and Final Fantasy VI for the iOS).
Part of me wants Square-Enix to fail, as they have ruined something I grew up loving, but their purchase of Eidos is still one of my favorite game-related moves in the last few years and it's great to see them release western games like Sleeping Dogs and Deus Ex and find success with them. I just don't know, hearing that Final Fantasy XV is coming out soon makes me excited, but I'm not getting myself hyped for it, like I did for Final Fantasy XIII
I actually bought a Xbox 360 when I had the money so I could get Final Fantasy XIII and I thought it was one of the biggest disappointments ever. I ended up playing Lost Odyssey a few months later and I started to not regret buying a Xbox 360. Square-Enix has ruined the Final Fantasy name and it's sad to see what the IP has turned out to be and what is even sadder is the fact that Square-Enix is ruining all of the Final Fantasy games now (for example; Final Fantasy X HD and Final Fantasy VI for the iOS).
Part of me wants Square-Enix to fail, as they have ruined something I grew up loving, but their purchase of Eidos is still one of my favorite game-related moves in the last few years and it's great to see them release western games like Sleeping Dogs and Deus Ex and find success with them. I just don't know, hearing that Final Fantasy XV is coming out soon makes me excited, but I'm not getting myself hyped for it, like I did for Final Fantasy XIII
Canis lupus
Member
Just finished reading those levelnth and Drek posts, damn some history lessons there. So the source of all evil is Wada. Who is the current CEO and what is his past, can he turn round the company's fortunes?
PandaPedinte
Member
Nice job compiling it OP.
TC McQueen
Member
Probably not, if the company is run primarily on Japanese business principles. They're not really suited for long term success and are largely incompatible with good business due to not having enough external oversight and having a lot of group think/people unwilling to shake up the status quo.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Great start to the year. Awesome post.
makingmusic476
Member
It's disappointing that Sakaguchi is no longer in such a high level position, where he can influence multiple large scale projects like KH and FFXII.
King_Richard
Member
Nice job on the research, OP. Learned a few things I didn't know previously about the merger.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
This is why this forum is awesome. Threads like this.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Kingdom Hearts' global impact keeping SquareEnix alive
And yet we have to wait a decade for KH 3.
charlequin
Banned
Matsuda is almost certainly worse than Wada in every possible dimension.
I think blaming "Japanese business principles" is pretty unreasonable when the proximate cause (bad management by Wada) and the background cause (demographic problems in Japan leading to leadership by terrible old people) of SE's failure are readily available.
Teedus pls.
Kingdom Hearts' global impact keeping SquareEnix alive
If SE was smart, they would have struck the KH3 iron while things were actually hot, not a decade later after several side-stories with increasingly labyrinthine plots and an ever dwindling audience.
People still question this, but it is always, always a bad thing when your new CEO was the guy formerly in charge of counting the money.
FalsettoVibe
Member
Good job OP. This is great.
Kingdom Hearts' global impact keeping SquareEnix alive
So basically Nomura is the Yezus.
H_Prestige
Banned
When your previous CEO is Yoichi Wada, it's hard to imagine the new guy being worse.
Props to Matsuda though. Dude was up for the challenge.
TC McQueen
Member
Wada's bad management is a symptom of the problems with Japanese business. Michael Woodward's book on the Olympus scandal explains it pretty clearly:
Michael Woodward said:
Gamesadict
Member
Oh damn, I remember that thread, and was blown away by all those details about the merge.
Thank you so much for this, to everyone who posted details, and OP for putting it all here.
Thank you so much for this, to everyone who posted details, and OP for putting it all here.
praise Nomurus?
SatelliteOfLove
Member
1. Thank you, Anaron.
2. Fuck you, Wada.
Just about covers it!
You know what them and Capcpom's leadership reminds me of? WW1 generals. Scared to death to go on offense when a good opportunity knocks until absolutely forced to after its passed and by then it's ghastly costly.
Case in point. Risking attracting new fans by not presenting a new tentpole is asinine.
2. Fuck you, Wada.
Just about covers it!
You know what them and Capcpom's leadership reminds me of? WW1 generals. Scared to death to go on offense when a good opportunity knocks until absolutely forced to after its passed and by then it's ghastly costly.
Case in point. Risking attracting new fans by not presenting a new tentpole is asinine.
Perfect Cha0s
Member
Awesome thread. I suppose hindsight is 20/20, but I can't help but look at that timeline and think that the writing must have been on the wall for a while before they fell from grace.
For those of you who might have followed the industry/Square back in the early 2000s, did it really seem like they were on a crash course as a company at the time?
For those of you who might have followed the industry/Square back in the early 2000s, did it really seem like they were on a crash course as a company at the time?
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
We have yet to see a Nomura fantasy. Have a little faith. Guch liked him enough to give him a shot, so I think we should at least see how it goes.
And KH only exists because Guchi gave Nomura a shot. Think of how many huge franchises never saw the light of day, because Guch wasn't there to give the young and promising talent their own chance.Kingdom Hearts' global impact keeping SquareEnix alive
And yes, the lesson of today (as it always should be in regards to SE) is that Wada was basically the devil, and Matsuda (Wada's no.2 who is currently CEO) is just as bad, if not worse.
entremet
Member
Not a KH fan personally. I prefer menu driven battle system, not the real time battles of KH, which the latest FF is heading to.
But he's the last big talent they have left after Toriyama almost killed the mainline series, so I'll try it out. I tried XIII, so it's only fair.
TC McQueen
Member
Not surprising, given how a lot of Japanese executive boards are "good old boys clubs". Executives aren't really promoted based on merit/competence past a certain level.
legacyzero
Banned
Yep. And PlayOnline pretty much was too, wasn't it? Damn that thing. DAMN.
Hey! You leave PlayOnline out of this, Legacyzero! ...They had... they had... THEY HAD SOME AMAZING MUSIC! YEAH! (Which is actually true. Filter Branch and Dolphin are amazing songs.)
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Sakaguchi leaving was the worst thing to happen to the company.
Say what you will about FF: The Spirits Within (and we all know it was a financial flop), but he had a vision for the company which was so incredible and exciting for the fans. You can feel his influence in the great PS1 games, when Squaresoft was absolutely on fire and exploring new genres and new ideas. When you compare Squaresoft's output on PS1 vs Square-Enix's output on PS2 it is a damn shame. And I don't even need to talk about last gen.
Say what you will about FF: The Spirits Within (and we all know it was a financial flop), but he had a vision for the company which was so incredible and exciting for the fans. You can feel his influence in the great PS1 games, when Squaresoft was absolutely on fire and exploring new genres and new ideas. When you compare Squaresoft's output on PS1 vs Square-Enix's output on PS2 it is a damn shame. And I don't even need to talk about last gen.
It's just bizarre too considering he essentially established the company.
plus, the board wasn't forced to make Square Pictures - they obviously saw the potential that could be mined from it. Hell, it was a pretty good idea the way it was intended to bridge gaming and film and benefit both in the process.
Shogun1337
Junior Member
Hey! You leave PlayOnline out of this, Legacyzero! ...They had... they had... THEY HAD SOME AMAZING MUSIC! YEAH! (Which is actually true. Filter Branch and Dolphin are amazing songs.)
That PlayOnline music was the shit. Holy fuck it was good.
Eric the Red
Member
Great OP.
Something else that really bothers me about Square that isn't mentioned as much is how little Square seems to values people. They're not creative assets, they're just salarymen/women. They lost Matsuno. They lost Uematsu over something SO arbitrary. They need a fall-man so here's Sakaguchi on a silver plater. I remember an interview with Nomura asking something in the area of being well-known for birthing certain characters, but Nomura's reply is that he doesn't see himself that way and that within the company he's just another employee.
Actually I just remembered this post:
Pretty cool we have someone like you in the thread. What did you do there? Is there anything you can speak to as far as the company's culture toward it's employees? Especially how it treats those who influence the creative direction of their games? We've seen so many talented people from Square's glory days fall by the wayside seemingly without any thought given to them.
Something else that really bothers me about Square that isn't mentioned as much is how little Square seems to values people. They're not creative assets, they're just salarymen/women. They lost Matsuno. They lost Uematsu over something SO arbitrary. They need a fall-man so here's Sakaguchi on a silver plater. I remember an interview with Nomura asking something in the area of being well-known for birthing certain characters, but Nomura's reply is that he doesn't see himself that way and that within the company he's just another employee.
Actually I just remembered this post:
Pretty cool we have someone like you in the thread. What did you do there? Is there anything you can speak to as far as the company's culture toward it's employees? Especially how it treats those who influence the creative direction of their games? We've seen so many talented people from Square's glory days fall by the wayside seemingly without any thought given to them.
Great post OP. So basically Enix wanted the merge for the western audience but Square didn't need them, then Square hurt itself with TSW, put Wada in charge under promise of recovery and he merged the two companies. So while TSW wasn't the sole reason for the merge, it was a major (possibly biggest?) factor.
Had SE made the games they have and not named them FF I'd have still liked them all the same. There would still be the same attitude towards them as a company, except with the added complaints for FF to return instead of "you've ruined FF" (from the VII-X fans at least, there were already fans of VI and prior that thought starting with VII the franchise was ruined).
It's a case that could be used for study in business classes. Really sad what happened this company and how it changed their output. I like the games they've made since the merger, but I can't defend SE's mismanagement nor the direction they headed in or are going now.
Here's a fitting song for them from the department I regard as their most talented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSoz0t622a4
Had SE made the games they have and not named them FF I'd have still liked them all the same. There would still be the same attitude towards them as a company, except with the added complaints for FF to return instead of "you've ruined FF" (from the VII-X fans at least, there were already fans of VI and prior that thought starting with VII the franchise was ruined).
It's a case that could be used for study in business classes. Really sad what happened this company and how it changed their output. I like the games they've made since the merger, but I can't defend SE's mismanagement nor the direction they headed in or are going now.
Here's a fitting song for them from the department I regard as their most talented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSoz0t622a4
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