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Limo burned at inauguration protest was owned by a Muslim immigrant; cost him $70,000
- Thread starter Rentahamster
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Burning the limo doesn't do shit to resist Trump. All it does it is hurting one of the very people you're fighting for.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Some insurance plans would cover it, but most cheaper ones do not cover theft/vandalism/etc.
Well, they certainly aren't going to set their own cars on fire, are they?
I wonder how these groups operate in their personal lives. Are they getting off thinking about the Muslim guy's limo being burned? We have an anarchist mod so maybe he could illuminate. Y'all have weekly meetings and chats on how to be a more effecting anarchist? Or is it just hijacking peaceful protests and then feeling better than everyone else?
So many people pounding their TVtrays to post such strong and vivid condemnation of an insured vehicle.
Yeah, bad. That's about where it ends considering violence at the protest was isolated, and you also had white supremacists trying to hire people to riot. But all in all, a total non issue in comparison to what people are protesting about. This is violence, and hopefully the crims get caught. But when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people protesting, this really has no relation to it.
We don't live in a perfect society, people in large groups do stupid things. Like flip over cars when their team wins. But it's just property damage. Some people even try to hurt others. But there is law for that.
I feel like there is a lot between the lines here, and it isn't missed on me. And probably a ton of other people.
Our country is hitting revolution territory, whether folks are ready for it or not. Condemning this isn't going to get through to anyone. Just like burning a limo isn't really sending a message, but the overall protest is.
Folks are sick, and humans protest and riots happen for change. Well, outside of the usa... here, you've got to worry about nana Ruth and property damage. But it's on the way. I'm happy to see the protests, and I know it's hard to find agitators. Any of us could go out and throw a molotov at a protest and likely get away in the chaos. But as long as it's the minority, well, what can you do about human nature, or people paid, or just stupid people ?
Yeah, bad. That's about where it ends considering violence at the protest was isolated, and you also had white supremacists trying to hire people to riot. But all in all, a total non issue in comparison to what people are protesting about. This is violence, and hopefully the crims get caught. But when you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people protesting, this really has no relation to it.
We don't live in a perfect society, people in large groups do stupid things. Like flip over cars when their team wins. But it's just property damage. Some people even try to hurt others. But there is law for that.
I feel like there is a lot between the lines here, and it isn't missed on me. And probably a ton of other people.
Our country is hitting revolution territory, whether folks are ready for it or not. Condemning this isn't going to get through to anyone. Just like burning a limo isn't really sending a message, but the overall protest is.
Folks are sick, and humans protest and riots happen for change. Well, outside of the usa... here, you've got to worry about nana Ruth and property damage. But it's on the way. I'm happy to see the protests, and I know it's hard to find agitators. Any of us could go out and throw a molotov at a protest and likely get away in the chaos. But as long as it's the minority, well, what can you do about human nature, or people paid, or just stupid people ?
What is wrong with Capitalism?
The most progressive and happiest countries in the world - the Scandinavian countries - are all Capitalist.
I feel like you're building up a strawman of people here criticizing the protests overall, which is not happening (aside from maybe a few uninformed posters), but specifically those anarchists responsible for most of the property damage and setting stuff on fire. I'd rather argue that if anything you're (not you directly, a general "you") muddling the overall protest message more by misguidedly defending the anarchist subset and thus letting them "be a part" of it.
benjipwns
Banned
Don't talk to him, he's a splitter who doesn't understand true anarchism as properly founded in axiomatic principles! Talk to me instead! My pamphlets outline in explicit detail the true path of achievable anarchism through a sustained program of jury nullification and spreading pamphlets about a citizens right to jury nullification. Also posting on NeoGAF.com!
Those other anarchists are just trying to scare you into supporting a state! Just say NO to a monopoly on the use of force!
Audioboxer
Member
I'm taking a back seat to most political conversations right now and just spectating, but in this instance I really really really don't know what goes through some heads to get them whipped up into a misguided cause/frenzy that means this act achieves anything productive.
It seems to be angry people championing any sort of destruction or violence possible because in their minds the world needs to now burn to the ground.
For the guy that owns this I hope they can ID or catch who done it. Chances are they were masked but the police have picked up many of those involved in damaging things around them.
It seems to be angry people championing any sort of destruction or violence possible because in their minds the world needs to now burn to the ground.
For the guy that owns this I hope they can ID or catch who done it. Chances are they were masked but the police have picked up many of those involved in damaging things around them.
benjipwns
Banned
Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
MadJackChurchill
Banned
I still think corporate property can be fair game in riots, especially for tax dodgers. They're insured, so it will be replaced, but their premiums will rise which is at least something.
But You and i, and no one else is "letting" it happen as if it can be stopped. The police probably monitor/cam/drone/helicopter etc.. and will crack down. The message of the protest is clear, illustrated by the peaceful protests. The people there to just fuck stuff up. Are there to do just that. You can't kill the subset without making it illegal to have large protests.
The minority doesn't define a protest. Not sure why it's even being asked as what it's messaging is. Opportunist want to burn shit with anonymoty. That's about it.
Silent Chief
Member
Who takes his own limo to Washington DC?
Probably someone who lives there (85% voted for Hillary).
Better odds if you're burning private jets.
benjipwns
Banned
I don't want to speak for Val or kame but I think part of the argument in this thread is due to some miscommunication.
They're arguing less about this specific case than they are advocating for the maintenance/use of self-defense rights. The burning of a limo was not the initiation of force, that's either an unfortunate or irrelevant side effect of the broader acts of self-defense.
It's a fundamental disagreement on the premises. Has the system initiated enough force to justify self-defense? Acts of which are not always planned out in advance.
I'm sure where everyone can agree is that there's always going to be jerks who do jerky things because it seems fun. I hear some of really deplorable people even do things like play video games.
They're arguing less about this specific case than they are advocating for the maintenance/use of self-defense rights. The burning of a limo was not the initiation of force, that's either an unfortunate or irrelevant side effect of the broader acts of self-defense.
It's a fundamental disagreement on the premises. Has the system initiated enough force to justify self-defense? Acts of which are not always planned out in advance.
I'm sure where everyone can agree is that there's always going to be jerks who do jerky things because it seems fun. I hear some of really deplorable people even do things like play video games.
ClosingADoor
Member
Can I torch your car when rioting next time? Maybe your house? How about with you still in it? Or you family? Where is the line here?
And how do you know that? The McDonalds or Starbucks at your corner might as well be a franchise instead of directly owned by the corporation. The limo driving the billionaire can be hired from a small business owner.
Yep all this rioting nonsense only ever harms the aims of the protests they're attached to. You're wilfully fucking up the message they're trying to get out there on the news. We've seen this time and time again with anti tuition fees protests in the UK for example. THE story on prime time news always ends up being about the couple dozen people smashing in a store front and ignores the 100,000 other peaceful protesters and their message.
So yeah just fucking stop. Go and smash up a derelict factory somewhere to let it our of your system and stay the fuck away from what are supposed to be meaningful marches.
pirateluigi
Member
I don't know about anyone else, but all I am seeing lately on social media are stories like this as a way to denounce and devalue the protests. I can't see random violence like this as effective, especially when it turns people that would otherwise be supporters away from the cause.
Val specifically called burning the limo a "substantial blow against Trump"
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=228977147&postcount=46
I think that's an absolutely ridiculous point of view and deserves to be called out.
But neither the limo nor the owner represent Trump and his government. It's pointless destruction.
These idiots just use the cover of a big protest to destroy some property. It's better to just denounce them than excusing their action with a high and mighty cause.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I think most here would agree. However, the disagreements begin in the area of collateral damage.
Pop
Member
Sure. As long as the person is willing to do the time.
Those are lies. Hurtful lies.
benjipwns
Banned
Destroying an icon of extreme wealth and marking it with a traditional American motto isn't counter-productive. It's a substantial blow against Trump and what he stands for, sending the message that many Americans are willing to fight back against the repressions of his government. You are free to take issue with destruction of property, but these actions are not meaningless.
No it's not. He doesn't give a shit about a Muslim immigrants burned limo.
So is the protest suddenly against capitalism itself and not Trump? Because the USA was capitalist long before Trump. If they want to protest capitalism it's shitty to co-opt a movement that's specifically against Trump.
This kind of situationist nonsense really needs to be dropped. Contemporary anarchists are making exactly the same mistakes of their forebears in thinking that spectacle achieve anything outside of their own echo chamber. For a movement who's politics & ideology is grounded in understanding history this kind of blinkered view is disheartening.
However - the poster who made the point about re-asserting property ownership norms was correct as well. The whole notion that private property is sacred - and I use that word in its most literal sense - is one of the root reasons class-based revolution will never come to the U.S., outside of the kind of social conditions experienced by a majority of people in France, Russia affecting a similar number. At that point you'll probably have another civil war on your hands.
However - the poster who made the point about re-asserting property ownership norms was correct as well. The whole notion that private property is sacred - and I use that word in its most literal sense - is one of the root reasons class-based revolution will never come to the U.S., outside of the kind of social conditions experienced by a majority of people in France, Russia affecting a similar number. At that point you'll probably have another civil war on your hands.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
Are you being serious right now? You consider this a substantial blow? What, if anything, do you think this shit achieved?
You think it changed minds?
You think it made Trump and other republicans scared?
Absolute bullshit.
Absolutely, which is why it's so frustrating seeing people defend those idiotic individual's actions, all because "I HAVE TO BE 100% RIGHT."
Yeah, I wasn't initially on board, but now I'm really sympathetic to your cause because... you broke apart a stop sign? I acknowledge that it's hard to convey extreme dissatisfaction without violence or destroying stuff being one of the first options that spring to mind, but I feel like it would have been far more effective if nothing were destroyed. Then we could focus on the millions of marchers and not a glass window on a sushi shop.
old manatee
Banned
I don't think real rich people even ride in limos anymore.
The Salt Life
Banned
One day they are going to burn the wrong car or break the wrong window and someone is going to get shot, which is going to start a stampede of people fleeing and people getting trampled causing hundreds of injuries. In a country with tons of guns I'm surprised it has not happened yet.
Destroying an icon of extreme wealth and marking it with a traditional American motto isn't counter-productive. It's a substantial blow against Trump and what he stands for, sending the message that many Americans are willing to fight back against the repressions of his government. You are free to take issue with destruction of property, but these actions are not meaningless.
Edit, and those people who would get trampled are innocent protesters who didn't sign up for the violence.
Airola
Member
To all these pro-anarchy-lets-destroy-the-symbols-of-wealth people here:
The people who flew the planes to the WTC were also just trying to change the world and wanted to destroy one of the biggest symbols of wealth ever.
Wealth is not the problem. It's what people do with the wealth, or what they decide to not do because of wealth, that is the problem. Creating these "symbols of wealth" in your head and then attacking that symbol does nothing else but make people think you just don't want others to have something you think you can't have. I feel like this type of anarchism is only making materialism feel even more important because people feel there is a need to destroy it because some people can have it and some people can't. It's as if everyone could have it, it would be ok. But now that you can't have it, let's make sure no-one else should either. And ironically limo is something you probably could have too, even if only as a rental.
There are lots of people in the world who couldn't afford to get the bass guitar and the amp some anarchist needs to play punk. Or can't even afford the electricity needed to use the amp. Or don't have the time to ever play them because they have to work to eat. To them the bass guitar could be a symbol of wealth. It's all relative.
The people who flew the planes to the WTC were also just trying to change the world and wanted to destroy one of the biggest symbols of wealth ever.
Wealth is not the problem. It's what people do with the wealth, or what they decide to not do because of wealth, that is the problem. Creating these "symbols of wealth" in your head and then attacking that symbol does nothing else but make people think you just don't want others to have something you think you can't have. I feel like this type of anarchism is only making materialism feel even more important because people feel there is a need to destroy it because some people can have it and some people can't. It's as if everyone could have it, it would be ok. But now that you can't have it, let's make sure no-one else should either. And ironically limo is something you probably could have too, even if only as a rental.
There are lots of people in the world who couldn't afford to get the bass guitar and the amp some anarchist needs to play punk. Or can't even afford the electricity needed to use the amp. Or don't have the time to ever play them because they have to work to eat. To them the bass guitar could be a symbol of wealth. It's all relative.
ClosingADoor
Member
Depends on the insurance. Special things like riots might demand additional insurance and a small business might think: not worth the extra cost, since it almost never happens.
What Liberal oppression looks like...
You protested in the wrong way, 10 years in jail. That'll teach you to keep your hands off the Starbucks and Bank of America's property.
I mean sure you'd better not target small businesses but big corporations and their stores/facilities? No reason to feel bad about them losing some pocket change, they rip people off and damage society every day of the week.
Capitalism is an awful system. Rich countries exploit poor ones. Just because a few imperialist countries are "happy" doesn't make it a good system. It's like saying slavery is a good system because slave owners are happy, or that feudalism is a good system because kings and queens are happy.
benjipwns
Banned
Trump is a symptom not the cause. Protesting Trump does nothing to change what brings the Trump's into power.
These people that Trump and limo service owners represent are launching violence against billions of people almost constantly and when someone under attack strikes back everyone complains about the victim acting in self defense. Just like with the guy who punched the Nazi.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Some of the most despotic and impoverished ones are capitalist as well.
You live in a system that equates the value of a person with the amount of capital that person possesses and then condemn them when they destroy symbols of that system?
"Oh no! Won't someone think of the property!"
Come on.
ClosingADoor
Member
What gives you the right to demolish a Starbucks or Bank of America? Like I said earlier, how do you even know an establishment is corporate owned or a franchise? Cool, I've destroyed my local Starbucks to stick it to the man. Damn, it was actually run by a small business owner that now can't feed his family.
Got a better alternative? Capitalism is the best system we have at the moment, despite its faults. Same with democracy. It is not the system, it is how you use it that makes it bad. Get your government in order and use capitalism for good in the world. It has lifted billions of people out of poverty and into a better life.
benjipwns
Banned
That's all systems though because humans.
Which is proof that he was a victim being exploited who is now liberated from that exploitation.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Liberals like to think they're leftists until it comes time to do leftist shit. Most seek only to carve a niche out in an oppressive system and not to abolish it all together.
FTFY.
Humans existed in band level societies for centuries. This 'human nature' bullshit is a fallacy.
That's fine and dandy if a good chunk of the populace gets your struggle and how important and necessary your actions are. Unfortunately most people don't give a shit about yours and their politics, and when seeking an opinion will default to the immediate and obvious.
benjipwns
Banned
Hence the need for a vanguard party.
Which established all sorts of values, roles and responsibilities based on the capital possessed.
Why don't you give me an example of a more progressive and happy country than the capitalist Scandinavian countries.
The Soviet Union?
Maoist China?
Castro's Cuba?
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