i'm curious if you think having that level complexity is irreconcilable with having appealing gameplay for folks who don't dive deep into the game's mechanics- i kinda get that vibe with the last sentence there and am wondering if i'm reading that right.
That's a really great question and I'm not really sure of the answer. I think it would take a genius piece of game design to open up DMC4 Dante's depth to a much wider / more casual market AND maintain all of the long-term mastery.
I mean, you're basically talking about having evade, royal guard (block), lift, pull, multiple melee attack buttons, shooting and some sort of contextual weapon/style switch mapped on dedicated, main buttons (i.e. not the d-pad) and then squeezing in dozens of layers of complexity. I don't think it's impossible, and Bayonetta made great strides in this department (for example).
For me, personally, as a designer, I don't think like putting combat options, like alternate weapons, in the menus (i.e. having to switch weapons between missions). And I don't like DMC4's approach of having you cycle through systems three/four layers deep to reach an ability. But it's a really difficult problem to solve.
A lot of the aspects of DMC4 Dante are just complexities for the sake of complexities. Dividing up essential moves/abilities into Styles makes doing simple things harder to do than they should be. That's the main thing they should be tackling in DMC5.
Yup, agreed.
Wow, tons of great information from Triblade. Thanks for chiming in!
Great posts by TribladeX. I really enjoyed DmC and am loving the changes implemented in DmC
E.
Thanks for responding. Didn't expect this.
Again, thank you for the replies TribladeX.
As, always - You're very welcome
Haha
Is it true that initial enemy design for DmC included a blade attached to an arm, for every unit?
Not every enemy, no. There were all kinds of different things concepted for the game. However most of the fodder enemies had some sort of blade, I think (little fuzzy here - It's worth checking the concept art gallery out for a better confirmation). The big problem is a lot of the very early prototypes, the blades were tiny. The reason characters in these games have such exaggerated weapons is because smaller weapons are really difficult to read during tells and fast attacks. And that's exactly what happened with the early enemy designs.
Why do you think Capcom picked NT, did they have other studios in mind?
I don't have an specifics here. Things I've heard suggest that yes, Capcom went looking around for the developer they felt could do it justice. I don't know who else they looked into though. Something I loosely heard was that it was NT's ability to tell a story that was a major factor in why they were chosen. I think that they felt that part of DMC's 'problem' was the crazy story lines. Personally it's one of my favourite aspects of the series, but I know some people think it's just nonsense.
I think another aspect was that Ninja Theory were already making third person combat action games.
I think you are in majority here. Personally I would love to play as Dante as well (although I would kill for a Vergil or Sparda game), but over the years Nero has been growing on me as well so there really isn't a wrong choice here for me
Exactly, there's no wrong choice - but I don't think Capcom will ever be able to make everyone happy, no matter which way they go next.
In regards to "Depth vs Accessibility" argument that you make, I don't think it should necessarily be a choice between having one or the other. You can have both a character who is accessible enough for casual players to pick up and enjoy but at the same time has enough depth and complexity for more hardcore players to experiment with. Both your own Dante in DmC and Vergil in 4SE are a testament to that.
Yup, as I said above, I don't think it's impossible. Just difficult. There are still people that argue that Dmc Dante doesn't have enough depth to match DMC4 Dante, so just doesn't live up to requirement as a DMC character. Like everything else though, it's really subjective. Others have said that DmC is the only DMC game they could get into, so you can go on like that forever.
I think it goes a little further though than the requirement of just being able to "Pick up and enjoy". Sure, that's important, but casual players also have to feel empowered by the character, while being pushed to get better and better at the game without suddenly getting overwhelmed.
I actually think Capcom make a great step in the right direction with Nero: Much more accessible character with tons of depth potential. However they killed it by making the level design obnoxious (I've lost count of the number of people who quit that game because they got lost and/or they got screwed over by that grapple sequence with the spike traps and the room full of enemies waiting for them below) and then by suddenly switching to an insanely complicated, immediately powered up Dante half way through the game.
It's a shame to know there was a more detailed change log that got lost somewhere during the development but still, we definitely appreciate what you did here
Yup, it is. And, thanks
As you said I've seen other people make suggestions along these lines but man I think the day that this actually happens would be the day that I quite the DMC series. Don't get me wrong, I love the gameplay and play these games for countless hours (finishing on all difficulties, S ranking the missions, practicing combos.... well, you know the drill) but still, a very very big of part of what makes me love DMC is its characters and their interactions with each other.
So, if that was to be removed from the game then it would no longer be the same series that I fell in love with.
Yeah, bear in mind that I'm only talking about what I think might make sense from a publisher's point of view. It's not necessarily the game I'd want to see either. I see that more as a 'if they were trying to justify the cost of making another game' thing, this could be one approach they could take to reduce the risk. They could always expand on the concept later too.
