ViewtifulJC
Banned
The few, the proud, the less than 7% of JSRHD players who conquered the tutorial
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LTTP: Jet Set Radio, or "A Lesson in the Virtues of Arcade Sensibilities"
- Thread starter Sixfortyfive
- Start date
Meccanical
Member
God dammit JC, why did you remind me I still can't beaten the tutorial.
Fuck the tutorial.
It didn't tutor shit. Unless it was telling me how bad I was and if that's the case I didn't need the lesson, I already knew.
Fuck the tutorial.
It didn't tutor shit. Unless it was telling me how bad I was and if that's the case I didn't need the lesson, I already knew.
Meccanical
Member
SonicXtreme
Member
The few, the proud, the less than 7% of JSRHD players who conquered the tutorial
isn't that like only accessable from the menu or some shit? most people probably just never bothered as it's not in the main game when you load it
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I found every level where you have to chase and tag other gangs incredibly more annoying than anything in the Tutorial, personally, even though the final combo they ask of you can be somewhat tricky.
The few, the proud, the less than 7% of JSRHD players who conquered the tutorial
Just checked the Steam achievements for this game and they're pretty funny. Less than 83% of people who bought the game on Steam ever started it, and less than 70% unlocked Gum and Tab which is the first thing you do in the game. I guess that 13% were really put off by the main menu.
Dat Steam sales power. Buy games, never play them!
Interesting, didn't know that. Much more apt considering what you end up doing there.
One of my favorite games period. It's one of those games where the minute I got my hands on it I could feel the craftsmanship at therein.
One of the things about JSR is that it holds up partly because basically nothing like it other than JSRF has been made since. It's a truly unique game. I think someone even went as far as to call Mirror's Edge "the new Jet Set Radio."
One of the things about JSR is that it holds up partly because basically nothing like it other than JSRF has been made since. It's a truly unique game. I think someone even went as far as to call Mirror's Edge "the new Jet Set Radio."
mirror's edge is certainly the most original feeling platformer since jet set. they also have a similar arcade ethos and complex controls that you have to master. i see the comparison.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Eventually. Still dicking around in post-game a little bit, actually.
I was pretty sure that I wasn't going to bother recording any JSRF videos in addition to the stream, what with there being no real use in an instructional video since Future's changes to the controls and scoring system renders long trick lines and infinites mostly pointless and often trivially easy. But then I had to do a suicide jump from absurd heights from a tower that was sort of an ordeal to approach and climb in the first place just to net enough bonus line points to clear a challenge, managed to navigate my way to a safe landing on the 1st attempt, and then thought "...Maybe."
"Oh wow, I'm having fun," I think to myself, just before I remember that there's no real point in doing that again once you pick up the trinket it unlocks. And that, honestly, there wasn't much of a point in doing it in the first place other than to check it off your list. How bizarre that a collectathon platformer puts the vast majority of its collectables, including virtually all of those that require a fair bit of platforming skills to unlock, in the post-game. Oh, if Future's focus only matched its scope.
Still though, the skyscraper area in particular is kind of cool, and probably my favorite to mess around in right now. It's an environment that's a little intimidating to tackle in and of itself in a way that nothing in the first game really is. Grind Square kind of approaches that quality, but it's just not big enough to have the same effect.
I'm not sure if you know this, but if you keep doing air tricks you won't take any fall damage. So basically you can jump from any height and land without getting hurt as long as you keep doing tricks. It's probably more difficult to do on the 360 though since the unstable framerate can mess with your timing. But yeah, another reason why you don't need a long health bar in this game. Maybe if there weren't so many health pickups everywhere it wouldn't be useless, but then again you can still just switch to a different character at those graffiti stops when you're low on health.
There is that one street challenge in Shibuya Terminal where you have to land on all the bus terminals without touching the ground that takes some skill, but that challenge is messed up because not only is the in-game description of the challenge confusing (I had to look it up on the internet to find out what the hell it meant), but the challenge itself is also glitched and sometimes doesn't register when you do it right.
You'll also probably be disappointed in the test runs if you ever get to them. They're incredibly easy. You could probably give the controller to someone who has never played the game before and they would get a Jet on all of them. Seriously, look at the times it shows for each rank. I think you get the Motor rank (second lowest) for doing a lap around a level in under 50 minutes. FIFTY MINUTES! It's disappointing that something you unlock after beating the game that should be the ultimate test of your skill is somehow easier than all of the actual story mode.
I'm surprised that you like Grind Square since that level is easily my least favourite in JSR. The level design is really lazy and it's not fun to skate around in. Bantam Street and Grind City stick out as weird levels since they weren't in the original Japan release and we're probably rushed to make it into the international version, but I think Bantam Street is actually a pretty good level.
There is that one street challenge in Shibuya Terminal where you have to land on all the bus terminals without touching the ground that takes some skill, but that challenge is messed up because not only is the in-game description of the challenge confusing (I had to look it up on the internet to find out what the hell it meant), but the challenge itself is also glitched and sometimes doesn't register when you do it right.
You'll also probably be disappointed in the test runs if you ever get to them. They're incredibly easy. You could probably give the controller to someone who has never played the game before and they would get a Jet on all of them. Seriously, look at the times it shows for each rank. I think you get the Motor rank (second lowest) for doing a lap around a level in under 50 minutes. FIFTY MINUTES! It's disappointing that something you unlock after beating the game that should be the ultimate test of your skill is somehow easier than all of the actual story mode.
I guess that's a good thing if you just want to unlock all the secret characters though.
I'm surprised that you like Grind Square since that level is easily my least favourite in JSR. The level design is really lazy and it's not fun to skate around in. Bantam Street and Grind City stick out as weird levels since they weren't in the original Japan release and we're probably rushed to make it into the international version, but I think Bantam Street is actually a pretty good level.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Yeah, I started picking up on the finer points of the combo/trick system once the street challenges started requiring that of me. And dealing with 360 bullet time isn't too bad once you realize you can just link tricks by sight instead of timing (e.g. press X again once the blue sparks reappear).
It's more just that that's the only stage in the first game that the skyscraper area compares too, as it's the only one that focuses almost entirely on crossing gaps from tall heights.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
So I completely finished JSRF. We could joke about me being a glutton for punishment, but let's be real. I don't 100% games that I hate.
If you read this thread from start to finish you probably noticed that I actually bitched about a lot of things in the first game. But the thing is, almost all of my problems with JSR are mechanical things that are rarely a huge deal and can just be worked around in some fashion, and they eventually either provide some satisfaction in mastering or at the very least just stop being an issue. The rival tagging stages are kinda dumb, but eventually you just get a feel for the range you can hit your opponents from, and they become smooth sailing in time. Half pipes are cumbersome but you just figure out when to jump and you don't get hung up on them anymore. Little things about the controls like simply turning around when stuck up against the wall can be perplexingly difficult, but that's not a problem anymore once you stop faceplanting against the wall and just avoid that type of situation entirely. And once you work around those rough edges and learn the finer points of how to play in general, you're left with a game that rewards you a lot for good tactics, dexterity, and reflexes, and it never really drops a beat from start to finish.
JSRF is the opposite in a lot of respects. Half pipes aren't useless anymore. The rival tagging missions don't seem to be as frustrating (hooray for lock-on, better range, and a manageable camera), and some of the other side missions they added are actually kind of fun: rarely amazing, but usually a good change of pace. Most of the bosses actually make use of grinding, something that was completely absent in JSR's only boss, and thus feel like a better fit for the game. Camera control is bound to its own individual button. You don't consume cans laying around on the ground if you're already at max capacity. Just lots and lots of little changes that make a lot of sense and are almost always for the better.
But for all the fine-tuning they made to the mechanics, and for all the gains in scope that they made with the size of the stages and the length of campaign, JSRF ended up losing an equal or greater amount in focus and purpose when compared to its predecessor. Like some others have mentioned, one of the best pervasive qualities of JSR is the constant feeling that your actions matter and have consequences, and that is one of the most engaging feelings you can get from a video game, whether it's derived from dexterity, strategy, competition, or narrative. It's also something that has been stripped from a lot of the different components of JSRF, and it kind of results in a feeling that this game is less than the sum of its parts.
The most obvious part of the game that gets hit by this is the way the police confront you in this game. In JSR, you have to eliminate your graffiti targets and maneuver around enemies simultaneously, with more reinforcements added as you clear more targets. This means that you're rewarded or punished appropriately for threat prioritization or the lack thereof, and learning the most efficient ways to traverse a level pays dividends when it comes to survival. None of this exists in JSRF. It doesn't matter which targets you clear first or last, other than saving you some time backtracking to hit one you missed. The police just stop you in your tracks at designated locations, and you have to drop everything else and dispose of them in each of these little makeshift arenas until you can get back to tagging. Strategic threat prioritization is gone, and there's not really much to these fights on their own to make up for it. Like I mentioned upthread, this is why manual graffiti motions were probably eliminated from JSRF. In JSR, they serve a clear purpose by forcing you to stop and focus on larger targets for longer stretches of time; that's the entire reason why clearing areas in reach of certain enemies at certain times is important. It would have been pointless to bring graffiti motions back for JSRF without changing the flow of the game in other respects because there are no real threats to ever interrupt you anyway.
The other parts of the game that take a major hit are the trick and scoring systems, and this manifests itself in several ways. On first impression, the ability to gain speed on a grind rail with appropriately timed tricks is a very nice addition. It contributes a lot toward making JSRF a much faster-paced and less sluggish-feeling game, but it also strips out whatever nuance there was in learning how to grind in JSR. In JSR, you really have to learn the virtues of normal jumps vs trick jumps and how to do either when the time and place calls for it, and it's something that often requires some thinking ahead and some quick reflexes when you need to correct your course of action. No matter how many times you may have practiced a loop, there are very few of them that can be done completely on autopilot in that game. Not so in Future; just tap that X button at a steady rhythm and you're right back at top speed.
Then there's the fact that combos in JSRF always reset whenever you touch a new rail. That video I linked in the OP with all those sample infinite grinds you can do in almost every stage in JSR? Completely pointless in JSRF. Every time you land on a new rail, your trick counter drops down to 0 and you start all over, so even though longer or more elaborate trick lines may be possible in Future, there's not really any incentive to bother trying them. One addition to Future that could have been kind of interesting is the fact that some rails have a higher base point value than others. This could have lent itself to a good risk/reward element by making more difficult trick lines worth more points, but ultimately this just dumbs things down even further. There are only 2 possible base values a rail can give in Future, so most point challenges boil down to just finding the longest or easiest bonus rail in the stage and grinding back and forth on it tapping Y at a regular pace until you run out of time. That's it.
Future falls short on these arcade-based metrics of its predecessor because it ostensibly provides an experience more akin to those of exploration and collectathon-based platformers instead, but even there I have to question some major design aspects of the game. Collectables in such a game should have a clear purpose from the outset and try to serve as markers for individual platforming objectives instead of being the objectives in and of themselves. Future kind of falls flat in both of those regards. I think you only need 40 of 140 total Graffiti Souls to progress in the story, you're only made aware of their importance after you're already well into the game, and they only come into play once. And clearing that bar of 40 souls amounts to no more than a simple item hunt, with everything you need already marked on your map from the start. As for the remaining two thirds of the collectibles? For those, you have to track down a secret tape item in each stage, which then gives you a list of trick challenges to complete in that stage, which in turn reveal a new soul to collect after clearing each of them. These challenges still aren't as tightly designed as JSR in general, but they do mark the major way in which Future actually demands some competency at learning and traversing the stages, and it breaks the monotony of the simple point A-to-B structure that most of the campaign consists of. And it's all tucked away in an entirely optional part of the game. I literally didn't learn how the scoring system actually worked at all until I was done with the 10-hour campaign, because until I sought out the Mystery Tapes there was absolutely no reason to bother.
The reward for clearing all of the street challenge tasks and collecting all of the graffiti souls are a handful of "test runs" on each stage in the mold of the bonus modes from the first game (Jet Graffiti, Jet Technique, Jet Rush, etc). And they're all ridiculously easy for end-game challenges. If you've gone through the work to unlock them, you shouldn't have to attempt any of them more than twice in order to Jet rank them. Their only real value is in unlocking extra characters... but at this point, the only value those provide to you are additional options for the multiplayer games, and it's not like I'm going to be busting this out at a local session in the near future.
But for all the bitching over things both big and small, Future really does have its merits. I love the Skyscraper Area. For those watching my JSRF stream, you probably remember that I came really close to throwing in the towel somewhere around the 5-hour mark, right as I first got to this stage. The whole game up to that point just felt like busywork: no real challenge, no consequence to anything, and no real impetus to keep going other than to keep checking graffiti markers off a list. And then, finally, the game gives you the first real stage where the supposed platforming focus actually comes into play and you have to pay attention to what you're doing. Climbing the huge central tower to reach the bonus rails for the street challenges was fun and had a sense of intimidation to it that no area in JSR really compares to, since the stages in that game are so much smaller. The skyscraper rollercoaster had a similar appeal to it.
And Kibogaoka Hill showed some awesome potential, if only it hadn't been constrained by the way Future handles combat. If it played like a JSR stage, in which you had to take out graffiti targets while dodging or eliminating respawning fighter jets the whole time, it could have been awesome. The whole game could have been awesome with that kind of structure. And that stage came close because it's the only one in which you aren't confined to a pitifully small makeshift arena when faced with an adversary; you have free reign of the entire stage at all times. But since you aren't allowed to do two things at once in this game, you just have to systematically dispose of each of the planes before you can do any tagging. Oh well.
So, that's JSRF. Lots of mechanical refinement, slightly distinct but equally appealing aesthetics, haphazardly assembled game. I could think of several worse ways to spend $30 or 30 hours, but I can't say I really see myself pulling this game off the shelf again. It has its high points, but they're separated by a bit too much filler and a dreadfully monotonous opening half.
And man, is that opening demo a tease or what? My left nut for a sequel with JSR's focus, Future's scope, and 4-player co-op.
Postscript: I bought Mirror's Edge because of this thread. I have a lot on my backlog I want to get to first, though.
cj_iwakura
Member
Good write-up. If there's one thing and one thing only about JSRF that lives up to JSR, it's the OST.
buddha0991
Member
I still think JSRF is the better game IMO, but I grew to enjoy my time with the HD version an I have more respect wih what JSR1 as trying to do where as back in the day I thought it was messed up game design.
good writeup sixfortyfive
the skyscraper district is my favourite part of future too. i'm not against the game because they changed it - though jsr is so original it is a shame - but i feel like that's the only area where it's a really excellent open platformer instead of an awkward hybrid between ideas that doesn't really work for me.
the skyscraper district is my favourite part of future too. i'm not against the game because they changed it - though jsr is so original it is a shame - but i feel like that's the only area where it's a really excellent open platformer instead of an awkward hybrid between ideas that doesn't really work for me.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Also, here's an image dump of stuff I uploaded to my site when I posted the thread but haven't posted yet for whatever reason:
TaroYamada
Member
Nice analysis 645, I pretty much agree with everything you said about JSRF vs. JSR, JSRF is certainly a disappointing game coming from JSR and I'm not surprised in the least that you came to that conclusion. Just based on my memory of the game and also viewing some parts of your twitch stream.
A good game but it doesn't sit amongst the greatest games ever like its predecessor and that's enough to warrant the disappointment the game often induces in fans of the first.
A good game but it doesn't sit amongst the greatest games ever like its predecessor and that's enough to warrant the disappointment the game often induces in fans of the first.
Nice analysis. I recently played through JSR HD after reading your writeup and it gave me a newfound appreciation for the game. I used to think that JSRF was clearly the better game, but now I think JSR is definitely the more solid game. I still think I enjoy JSRF more but I haven't played it in years so hopefully they come out with an HD remake of it soon. And man would I also love a sequel that combines the best of both games.
Stephen Stills
Member
Great write up. Do you have a blog or something? I'd love to read your immpressions on pretty much any other game. I really can't think of any games journalists who puts this level of thought and effort into their reviews.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Had to bump this thread.
Jet Set Radio is my second favorite game of all time. I read this a few months ago when I think someone linked it (I don't remember) but I thought it had the best analysis on what makes JSR the game it is.
At one point in time, my scores on the JSR leaderboard were in the top 100's. I haven't been able to play HD in years because I find Dual Shock's simply unsuitable for playing JSR because the sticks lack grip and I'm not feeling buying a controller just to play it either. But I'm ordering a Hori PS4 controller soon with concave sticks and I'm looking forward to it.
Tonight I played some JSR and I felt like I sucked. It's been so long.
I've been thinking that once I get my skills up, we should plan a charity called Jet Set For A Future. We play JSR (or JSRF, whichever) for score to see who is THE JSR top dog on Gaf. We stream our sessions and shit if possible, upload to youtube, the works. And people can donate to charity via Child's Play. Jet Set For A Future would last a week or two tops.
How 'bout it?
Recording video now to show how dog shit Dual Shock is at JSR.
Jet Set Radio is my second favorite game of all time. I read this a few months ago when I think someone linked it (I don't remember) but I thought it had the best analysis on what makes JSR the game it is.
At one point in time, my scores on the JSR leaderboard were in the top 100's. I haven't been able to play HD in years because I find Dual Shock's simply unsuitable for playing JSR because the sticks lack grip and I'm not feeling buying a controller just to play it either. But I'm ordering a Hori PS4 controller soon with concave sticks and I'm looking forward to it.
Tonight I played some JSR and I felt like I sucked. It's been so long.
I've been thinking that once I get my skills up, we should plan a charity called Jet Set For A Future. We play JSR (or JSRF, whichever) for score to see who is THE JSR top dog on Gaf. We stream our sessions and shit if possible, upload to youtube, the works. And people can donate to charity via Child's Play. Jet Set For A Future would last a week or two tops.
How 'bout it?
Recording video now to show how dog shit Dual Shock is at JSR.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Here's a recording.
https://youtu.be/iUs59_LRYMQ
Look at all of those tag mess ups. That's what been keeping me from playing this game for so long: Dual shocks are terrible. The convex sticks don't compliment JSR's fast tagging, and you will mess up a lot. I got so disoriented running out of spray cans. With Gum, since she has such a low can number, I have her run on that stage down perfectly to a T because it's easy to run out of cans if you don't plan your route right, and that fucking Dual shock comes and messes up my run. People who play high level JSR with Dual Shocks please tell us how you do it because I find it a frustrating experience whether or not it's on a DS3 or 4. Absolutely terrible analog sticks and analog stick placement.
https://youtu.be/iUs59_LRYMQ
Look at all of those tag mess ups. That's what been keeping me from playing this game for so long: Dual shocks are terrible. The convex sticks don't compliment JSR's fast tagging, and you will mess up a lot. I got so disoriented running out of spray cans. With Gum, since she has such a low can number, I have her run on that stage down perfectly to a T because it's easy to run out of cans if you don't plan your route right, and that fucking Dual shock comes and messes up my run. People who play high level JSR with Dual Shocks please tell us how you do it because I find it a frustrating experience whether or not it's on a DS3 or 4. Absolutely terrible analog sticks and analog stick placement.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Just bought this. I can't play JSR on a Dual Shock 4. It's torture. Anyone use this?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0106XFCPI/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0106XFCPI/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I did pick this up on Steam not too long ago and have yet to play through it. Would be a decent excuse.
All I have for analog PC controllers is a USB converter for DC/PS2 pads.
All I have for analog PC controllers is a USB converter for DC/PS2 pads.
Lord British
Member
I can't get my head round this game on Dreamcast and I can't get my head round it on PC. I just bounce off the controls/movement so hard. I wish I didn't, I would love to enjoy JSR. I'm not sure what it is I'm missing, where I'm going wrong.
Will reinstall tonight, try again.
Will reinstall tonight, try again.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Did you play JSR HD on 360 or PS3?
JSR controls have a learning curve. What problems are you having? We will sort them out.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
JSR HD may still be my most played game on Steam.
Bought it the day it released.
Will we ever get a JSRF port?
Bought it the day it released.
Will we ever get a JSRF port?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I played and beat JSR HD on Steam four times in one day once. It's so good.
And probably not. People didn't buy JSR HD, and people poorly reviewed it because they're terrible at JSR and can't tangle with old school arcade like gameplay. All while mewling about how there's so few difficult games made today and why aren't there more games like Dark Souls.
Barrel Cannon
Member
I love both JSR and JSRF. This thread makes me sad that we probably won't get a sequel anytime soon. Also those soundtracks are so dam amazing, especially futures
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Four times in one day? You are WAY better than me. The only way I finished it was through patience and perseverance. Still love it to bits!
Outtrigger is one of the best split screen FPSs anywhere. It's so frantic and games are usually super close.
It's not you, the controls on the DC version are terrible. Jumping is awful, as it the camera. And whoever thought assigning 'tag player' on the same button as 'reset camera' for the boss battles needs shooting.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
JSR's controls are manageable. Hardly terrible.
sixteen-bit
Member
JSR is one of my favorite games. Gonna bump the soundtrack later.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
I managed to play JSR with mouse and keyboard all the way up until the final boss. It was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done in a game.
I disagree. So you think it's a good idea to have 'tag player' on the same button as 'reset camera'?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Can't think of any other button to place it. It's fine to me.
Haha, so every time you chase down a boss and try to tag him the camera suddenly resets behind your character. That *is* terrible.
Lord British
Member
I'll play tonight and report back.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
There is only one boss in JSR and it's the final boss.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
The most in-depth lttp I've seen in a while. Good shit!
Not true at all, you have to tag the 3 Poison Jammers in the Kogane-Cho sewers level and the Noisy Tanks in the Benten-Cho business district. They use the awful tag/reset camera controls.
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