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[Krowley]

only the government is capable of censorship.


gatekeeping / self-censorship (even if its by other companies within the industry) is NOT illegal and NOT a violation of the first amendment.

Exactly.


Nintendo has a right to monitor the content that appears on their platform because their reputation is effected.. Just like walmart has a right not to sell XXX porn in their stores and TV channels have a right to censor content if they fear it might endanger their channels reputation or hurt advertising.

It may suck, and I generaly don't like it myself, but there is nothing unconstitutional about it....

Rockstar has an intrinsic right to make the game, but they don't have the right to put it on a console... They have the right to make their own console that just plays manhunt, but that's obviously not practical. The PC is an open platform as far as I understand, so they can put whatever they want out on PC, but the consoles manufacturers mantain the right to regulate what they allow.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

no matter how obscene, perverse, disturbing, and potentially morally corrupting a game is, as long as it does not contain illegal content, to prevent the publication of a game or even to discourage such a game from being created (ex. for fear of a loss of profit due to rating) compromises the founding principles of our government.

I hate them almost as much as the evil overlords at GAF for violating my first amendment rights to talk about ****ing ********. If I want to discuss that, I go elsewhere. If nobody wants to hear that, nobody has to listen.

 

[Galactic Fork]

this game is going to sell way more copies now because of its publicity.

If the images are as graphic as the ESRB says, and not them over-reacting, then I'd imagine there's probably a clean version already made now that this one put them in the news. But I'm jaded.

 

[davepoobond]

well the ESRB was founded under significant government pressure on the video game industry , i do not think that any software developers got together and came up with the system on their own.

they are not a governmentally established organization. It was formed to keep the government OUT of the industry. It is exactly like the MPAA, more or less.


Software developers/publishers established the ESRB as an independent organization. It is funded, afaik by the publishers/developers themselves that get the games rated.

just like the MPAA, which was established by the movie industry companies to enforce self-censorship to keep the government out.

btw davepoobond, I like your renovated avatar :lol

thanks

 

[TJ Spyke]

dave is right, people can read "The Ultimate History of Video Games" for more info on both government investigations (the one in 1994, and the one in 1999 after Columbine). Congress basically told the video game industry to form a regulatory boyd (which ended up being the ESRB) or the government would. So while Congress forced the ESRB to be created, it in now way controls the ESRB. So tetrisgrammaton is actually right.

 

[Mason]

It'd be interesting if Rockstar watered down the content and released the game with an 'M' rating, then provided a free download that adds back the 'AO' content with the disclaimer that "game experience may change online" or whatever it is they usually say.

 

[underfooter]

I hope they somehow release the real version of the game. If it's watered down, I'll be really disapointed.


Nintendo should allow an AO game. It's not like they have to buy it, it's not like retailers will sell it to a kid....what's the big deal? People who want it should get it, help Nintendo's relationship with rockstar, get the exclusively goriest version, and really show the world the wii isn't just a machine for vasuals gamers and kids.


This type of press can only really help, even if it comes out negatively as first. This type of controversy will only help sales, and it's even pulling me in seeing how the game must be AWESOMELY violent for this to happen. If they water it down, all is lost.

 

[{Mike}]

Yea I also want the AO version. Bring in animal cruelty, rape, torture, decapitation, I'm all for it! (in a game)

 

[mj1108]

I hope they somehow release the real version of the game. If it's watered down, I'll be really disapointed.


Nintendo should allow an AO game. It's not like they have to buy it, it's not like retailers will sell it to a kid....what's the big deal? People who want it should get it, help Nintendo's relationship with rockstar, get the exclusively goriest version, and really show the world the wii isn't just a machine for vasuals gamers and kids.


This type of press can only really help, even if it comes out negatively as first. This type of controversy will only help sales, and it's even pulling me in seeing how the game must be AWESOMELY violent for this to happen. If they water it down, all is lost.

Sony has also said "no" to the game as well....so I don't know why some people here continue to act like it's only Nintendo's doing.

 

[Vagabundo]

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=78204

Yup Sony says no too. So it is not just kiddy Nintendo :lol

Who is betting that Rockstar have a backup game with watered down content?

And funnily enough if they water it down enough they might get a purchase from me. (Wii version)

 

[Hammer24]

Yea I also want the AO version. Bring in animal cruelty, rape, torture, decapitation, I'm all for it! (in a game)

No offense meant - but could you please share how old you are?

 

[virtuafightermaster]

It shouldn't be anyone else's decision what game I can or can not play, you can give a game AO rating if you want. However not allowing the release is stupid. that goes for both Sony and Nintendo. This should be about freedom of speech, not forcing the game maker to make a game not according their intention.

 

[{Mike}]

No offense meant - but could you please share how old you are?

11 (it's my birthday today)

 

[fresquito]

Manhunt 2 release put on the air in Spain

I just called Take-Two to ask if there would be any problem with the Spanish release of the game, and they told me the release has been delayed. When asked to when, they couldn't answer. So I understand the release has been put on hold until everything is clarified.

 

[Phife Dawg]

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=78204

Yup Sony says no too. So it is not just kiddy Nintendo :lol

Who is betting that Rockstar have a backup game with watered down content?

And funnily enough if they water it down enough they might get a purchase from me. (Wii version)

This would be quite the publicity stunt. It could alienate potential buyers that don't want to settle for a censored game though.

Maybe they were really caught off guard and just thought they could get away with it? Hard to guess without having played the game.

I do agree that they will water down the game. Cancelling it at this stage makes no sense whatsoever since the money on it has already been spent.

 

[X26]

The ultra-violent videogame Manhunt 2 allows you to rape a woman shortly after you beheaded her in the brothel level called Honey Pot. Members of the ESRB were shocked when Daniel Lamb used his male reproduction organ and simulated a penetration in the bloody hole. Other gruesome parts include microwaving a living cat to death and being a witness of necrophilia in a cemetery in one of the later stage of the game.

:lol :lol :lol

What!? Where's this from? If it's true that's defidently beyond pushing the envelope, that's pushing the mail truck off a cliff.

 

[Stop It]

This would be quite the publicity stunt. It could alienate potential buyers that don't want to settle for a censored game though.

Maybe they were really caught off guard and just thought they could get away with it? Hard to guess without having played the game.

I do agree that they will water down the game. Cancelling it at this stage makes no sense whatsoever since the money on it has already been spent.

As I said earlier, this has to be stunt, I can almost understand them mis-calling the BBFC etc and not wanting to get it banned over here, but they surely known what the ESRB would have thought of it, at this time there is no release of Manhunt 2 at all, thanks to Nintendo AND Sony having an anti-AO policy (GTA:SA was an exception as it got AO'ed after the games release).

I am starting to suspect that there really are 2 versions of this game about, the version that just got effectively banned universally, and a version that will sail through the ESRB at M and get a straight 18 rating from the BBFC, this is just Rockstar/Take-Twos way of hyping their games, and reactions like this to the decision are merely a smokescreen.

Edit: If that quote above is accurate, than I really, REALLY hope that Rockstar made 2 versions, I mean wtf? seriously, that is beyond sick, and frankly, worse than any other game I care to imagine, and worse than any film I have ever seen too (Seriously, I have seen rape depicted in film a few times, as we as the good old de-cap, but not both in one sequence, thats really pushing it).

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Just been to Go Nintendo, and in the comments section for a Manhunt 2 article, someone brought up the corpse raping & cat melting shit like it was fact.

GAF>Internet>GAF all over again? We'll see.

 

[Apocryphon]

I just read the NGamer review (through English language scans that can't be posted here) and it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as everybody is making out.

 

[Razoric]

:lol :lol :lol

What!? Where's this from? If it's true that's defidently beyond pushing the envelope, that's pushing the mail truck off a cliff.

It's not true, it was a joke post.

 

[Vagabundo]

I just read the NGamer review (through English language scans that can't be posted here) and it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as everybody is making out.

They got the watered down version to review. The ratings got the full version ensured to get banned.

Rockstar will wait a few months and submit the watered down version to the rating board.

Obsure game suddenly a must have item, it was banned you know. Profit.

 

[plagiarize]

I just read the NGamer review (through English language scans that can't be posted here) and it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as everybody is making out.

no one here seems to even acknowledge the possibility that the game may be be being rated unfairly. they're all too busy championing censorship and self censorship like it's somehow going to protect the games they want to play.

there isn't a line. there isn't 'too far'. at least not in America.

if you guys want to surrender that and allow an independant or governmental (and really what difference does that make) body start dictating what can and can't be in a game then don't come crying when something you wanted to play gets effected.

it wouldn't be the first time something was misrated after all would it?

who holds the ESRB to any kind of standard?

and i'm not saying that is what has happened. it probably isn't... but i love how no one here seems to even appreciate that ratings boards can get things wrong.

the ESRB got the rating of oblivion wrong and later changed it with some smoke and mirrors about nudity. the 360 version had no nudity and got rerated too.

zomg they made a mistake!

 

[Krowley]

no one here seems to even acknowledge the possibility that the game may be be being rated unfairly. they're all too busy championing censorship and self censorship like it's somehow going to protect the games they want to play.

there isn't a line. there isn't 'too far'. at least not in America.

if you guys want to surrender that and allow an independant or governmental (and really what difference does that make) body start dictating what can and can't be in a game then don't come crying when something you wanted to play gets effected.

it wouldn't be the first time something was misrated after all would it?

who holds the ESRB to any kind of standard?

and i'm not saying that is what has happened. it probably isn't... but i love how no one here seems to even appreciate that ratings boards can get things wrong.

the ESRB got the rating of oblivion wrong and later changed it with some smoke and mirrors about nudity. the 360 version had no nudity and got rerated too.

zomg they made a mistake!

Yeah this is a possibility, but we will probably never know unless we find out what was cut from an interview or something after the game is released.

My initial reaction was based on believing the joke post involving extreme necrophilia and cat microwaving, but if it's just a political thing and they are hating on the game because it's rockstar, that would suck. It's nothing I would be outraged about, but it would suck.

I would say many other people are also falling for the joke post (it was quite good IMO) and that may explain the lack of concern about misrating... I mean F***ing neckholes is way out of line :lol. A game like that WOULD deserve an AO in my opinion if you're going to have the rating at all (which is obviously debatable)... If the actual game was anywhere near that bad, then rockstar would be generating an AO on purpose for publicity and any concerns about creative freedom would pointless.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Hey thanks, Krowley, I thought I'd have to come in and argue all those points myself. :lol



This was kind of touched on earlier, but it's all about perception. There hasn't been a definitive study comparing the effects of violent and sexual images, so perception is really what we mostly have to base our judgements on. One person's perception of the effects may differ, but can still recognize that another has come to a conclusion through sound logic based through the other's perception.

Okay but see - there have been studies, loooooots of them. They just found no significant effects, which means...reality does not reflect the hypothesis! The best anyone's ever found with sexual content is a weak correlation and they haven't been able to replicate which means it was likely a statistical fart.

Aggression does correlate with violent television and games, but correlation does not imply causation, and not one study has been able to find that causal link, in spite of some trying to stack the deck. This means it's just as likely that aggressive kids seek out violent media.

Reality does not reflect these perceptions. I don't deny people still hold them, but I also don't deny that people believe breaking a mirror will give them bad luck or that dancing wearing ceremonial gear causes it to rain. Hold them if you like, but they are not reflected in reality.

 

[Stop It]

It's not true, it was a joke post.

Thank god for that, when I read it quoted I thought for a second that Rockstar had done the unthinkable, right, so thats the shock out of my system, as long as the game doesn't approach that level of sadism, I think it's ok for an 18 rating here in the UK.

Also, the BBC had a snap poll on their site on whether the BBFC made a good call banning MH2, on last count (The poll has vanished), it was 57/43 against the BBFC, interesting, I initially supported the BBFC on this, but reading more about it, I think they were a little hasty banning it out of hand, they could have stuck the 18 and forced Take-Two to put big warnings on the box, as well as telling retailers not to actively push the game (They have the respect/power to reccomend both, and are generally listened to in that regard)

 

[loosus]

As long as the ESRB, stores, or the licensors are the ones banning the game, who cares? The publisher still has a right to release the game.

People ought to be for social responsibility. Any time a private organization voluntarily -- without any governmental provocation -- limits the sale of a work that it finds overtly offensive, that's very responsible of them and also limits the government's will to intervene themselves.

 

[Ranger X]

As long as the ESRB, stores, or the licensors are the ones banning the game, who cares? The publisher still has a right to release the game.

Not if Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo doesn't approve the game. Lastest info, they refuse AO games.

 

[Nino]

Not if Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo doesn't approve the game. Lastest info, they refuse AO games.

And games that didn't get a rating, that's what's preventing MSFT from releasing Gears and Crackdown in Germany.

I they pull a The Punisher. That game allowed you to patch out the censorship if you had a modded Xbox.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Some people need to chill a little.

I'd be willing to bet money that the license agreement third-parties sign, it contains the clause about forbidding AO titles. I'm sure it's just not some talking point policy, but an actual part of the contract. So third-parties know this. There's no sudden shock occurring here.

Personally, I could care less. The IGN previews sounded like the game was aimed squarely at sickos. Shouldn't have required much thought by Rockstar to realize it was gonna get tagged with AO... as it should.

 

[carlnunz]

It sounds like the entire game has to be overhauled and not just certain extremely gruesome parts......
"
Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board’s published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible. Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing. There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game."


Thats from the bbfc site
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/news/pressnews.php

 

[AstroLad]

It sounds like the entire game has to be overhauled and not just certain extremely gruesome parts......
"
Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board’s published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible. Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing. There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game."


Thats from the bbfc site
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/news/pressnews.php

Really easy fix:

Don't change a thing, and make it all a dream at the end,

Spoiler

Newhart

-style.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Really easy fix:

Don't change a thing, and make it all a dream at the end,

Spoiler

Newhart

-style.

God, that was such a ballsy way to end the show. I loved it.

 

[Brobzoid]

They should do a proper version in PAL. they can't deny games to be put out in PAL can they? I mean, look at all the disgusting shit that gets a free pass in Europe...

Viva la freedom, bitches!

 

[zallaaa]

in the end, I'll have to become a smuggler.

 

[loosus]

Not if Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo doesn't approve the game. Lastest info, they refuse AO games.

Ever heard of the PC? If they really, really want it on a console, then they are free to make their own console, complete with all the violent material they could ever hope for. Hell, if they released their own console, it wouldn't necessarily need to be rated at all.

The game can still be released. It's up to the publisher whether they want to follow Nintendo's, Sony's, and Microsoft's rules or go down their own path.

 

[AstroLad]

I really don't think they're wedded to the content of their game; as a company, they're just going to push the envelope as much as possible to generate sales without going over the edge and hurting them. It's not like we're talking about some free speech activist performance artist here or anything.

 

[TheKingsCrown]

I really don't think they're wedded to the content of their game; as a company, they're just going to push the envelope as much as possible to generate sales without going over the edge and hurting them. It's not like we're talking about some free speech activist performance artist here or anything.

Still, makes you want to know what the content was that they cut out of the game. AO release imminent, via their website?

 

[AstroLad]

Still, makes you want to know what the content was that they cut out of the game. AO release imminent, via their website?

Yeah, I'm not saying it's what I want to happen, just that they'll stand by their content up to the point where it's no longer profitable. I certainly don't expect them to be free speech martyrs.

 

[Wink]

It will hopefully come out in Scandinavia or Austria/Swiss, where 'they' usually don't freak out over such stuff.

 

[jipe]

I don't think this statement from Take-Two's charman Strauss Zelnick has been posted yet:

The Rockstar team has come up with a game that fits squarely within the horror genre and was intended to do so. It brings a unique, formerly unheard of cinematic quality to interactive entertainment, and is also a fine piece of art.

More at http://news.com.com/Manhunt+2+maker...+of+art/2100-1043_3-6192306.html?tag=nefd.top

 

[pickwick]

wow !! Manhunt 2 for Wii is ranked @ number 2 (and number 8 for PS2) on french amazon, although it will release in almost one month ! :lol :lol :lol

 

[speedpop]

B-b-b-but what about teh mature!

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

It shouldn't be anyone else's decision what game I can or can not play, you can give a game AO rating if you want. However not allowing the release is stupid. that goes for both Sony and Nintendo. This should be about freedom of speech, not forcing the game maker to make a game not according their intention.

Console makers deny games or demand changes all the time, not just in cases of potential AO titles.

there isn't a line. there isn't 'too far'. at least not in America.

Sure there is. I can write whatever I want, but I can't force you to read it to an audience.

 

[Gio_CoD]

I've gotta assume there is basically zero chance of this game actually making it's release date now, right?

 

[davepoobond]

Console makers deny games or demand changes all the time, not just in cases of potential AO titles.

until there is a console that isn't controlled by one company and that same exact technology is shared amongst many manufacturers (such is the case with PCs) there is no hope for an actual alternative in which absolutely all games are possible without restriction as far as any "approval" process goes.

 

[Phife Dawg]

I've gotta assume there is basically zero chance of this game actually making it's release date now, right?

If it was all a publicity stunt they may have issued a toned down version as we speak. I wouldn't bet on it though.

I just hope it doesn't get delayed more than a month.

 

[DJ Sl4m]

I think Take Two are marketing geniuses.

Flaunt an AO title and give enough info to make everything seem legit then proceed to develop a game aimed at a lesser rating, maybe even less than M rating.
It's all hype for free promotion, nothing more nothing less and every media and forum is falling for it.

Free publicity and excitement.

And the best part is Jack Thompson and the like back off when the game gets a lesser rating being naive enough to think they actually influenced Take Two to adjust the game.

Jack Thompson is nothing more than a pawn in the game, Take Two's bitch.

 

[speculawyer]

I think Take Two are marketing geniuses.
Flaunt an AO title and give enough info to make everything seem legit then proceed to develop a game aimed at a lesser rating, maybe even less than M rating.
It's all hype for free promotion, nothing more nothing less and every media and forum is falling for it.
Free publicity and excitement.

I hope that is what is happening. But who knows?

 

[DJ Sl4m]

I hope that is what is happening. But who knows?

It's just a guess, but it's the only logical guess really.

With higher development costs it's too big a gamble to spend 9months+ on a game with hardly any outlet for sales to a smaller number of buyers.

 

[Matt]

They should do a proper version in PAL. they can't deny games to be put out in PAL can they? I mean, look at all the disgusting shit that gets a free pass in Europe...

Viva la freedom, bitches!

Jesus. Yes, it can be banned in PAL, in fact, in Europe it has already been banned BY LAW (which can't happen here) in several countries.