OrbitalBeard
Member
Mario 64 influenced a hell of a lot more than 3D platformers.
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Mario 64 and FF7; two revolutionary games, which shaped/impacted the industry more?
- Thread starter enigmatic_alex44
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Mario 64 influenced a hell of a lot more than 3D platformers.
Clairvoyance
Member
Yeah.
It seems incredibly insulting to the RPG genre to label Final Fantasy VII as a revolutionary game when all it did was prioritize graphical fidelity in a cinematic scope alongside a linear storytelling mechanic that had not deviated far from its predecessors. Even if we choose to handicap our argument even further by arguing the notion that because the game was from Japan it means that we should be narrow-minded in our praise, then I can list names upon names of greater Japanese RPGs which revolutionized the genre prior to the release of FF7.
I can guarantee that most successful RPGs released within the past 5 years, both universally acclaimed and those relegated to the critical benches, would not even bother to look at FF7 as a hallmark within their production roadmap. You would probably see shades of Ultima, maybe Baldur's Gate, and of course Elder Scrolls mentioned time and time again in brain storm sessions.
I would say that the development processes of Mario 64 influenced the development of Ocarina of Time - a game which is arguably the most influential of all time with its strong use of moveable camera work and Z-targeting. For a game to attempt a second analogue camera movement without the second analogue stick actually being available was unheard of.
I can guarantee that most successful RPGs released within the past 5 years, both universally acclaimed and those relegated to the critical benches, would not even bother to look at FF7 as a hallmark within their production roadmap. You would probably see shades of Ultima, maybe Baldur's Gate, and of course Elder Scrolls mentioned time and time again in brain storm sessions.
I would say that the development processes of Mario 64 influenced the development of Ocarina of Time - a game which is arguably the most influential of all time with its strong use of moveable camera work and Z-targeting. For a game to attempt a second analogue camera movement without the second analogue stick actually being available was unheard of.
Here's how I see it. Mario shaped the mechanics side, FF shaped the presentation and story side. The AAA philosophy borrows a hell of a lot from both. You can't downplay Mario 64 and it's 3D space movement. They set out to do it right and they did, now it has been refined through generations to the very best to what we have today.
That's as loaded as saying "Ask yourself what happened more in the following generations:
JRPGs with turn-based gameplay
3rd-person games with analog movement
... Yeah."
Sadly it's not even close. FF7 and MGS led to the cut scene and set piece bloat that we live with today. Meanwhile 3D platformers are basically a niche genre. I'd rather we lived in an alternate timeline where gameplay mechanics were king, but alas it wasn't to be.
If we are going to pick an influential game from this time frame, you should also mention Quake which was at least as influential as either of those games.
If we are going to pick an influential game from this time frame, you should also mention Quake which was at least as influential as either of those games.
TakeItSlowDude
Member
Neither in any pure form (though Tomb Raider did have limited strafing). I think that Mario 64 mostly evolved and brought to 3D preexisting actions of platformers that preceded it (wall kick and swing are the two big exceptions). I tend to see a lot of what is in Mario 64 as solutions that already existed or that were obvious/inevitable with the introduction of analogue controls + 3D graphics. This could be a fallacy of hindsight/inevitability on my part (heck maybe the Mario 64 devs pushed for Nintendo to have a analogue thumbstick). What Tomb Raider did was to really push the use context sensitive actions and animated reactions. Ledge grabbing, vaulting, shimming, and even block/box pushing brought about contextualize controls and actions into 3D games that had not been seen before.
dragonfart28
Banned
OOT didn't have the moveable camera like Mario 64 did. It could be argued it was a step back in some ways.
The change between RE4 and RE5 kind of highlights how these mechanics became refined.
See I would even disagree with this as well. Very few games are mechanically similar to Mario 64. Most games have actually regressed from Mario 64 and even control worse than it. Or at least, they tackle movement in 3D in a very different way. Many games employ the shooter style of 3D movement, where the character strafes and the camera controls a reticle. Many took the 3D environment and essentially made it a flat plane as far as the player is concerned, where the character bounds over everything without any input from the player. And many games just control like garbage, and the movement is a complete afterthought.
Of course that's not true of every game.
But honestly, when I think of general industry trends, and older games that remind of me general industry trends, I wouldn't think of Mario 64 at all, and I would be more likely to think of FF7. That's the way it is.
Another thing is that FF7 was by no means the innovator of cutscenes and cinematics in games. That was a movement happening long before FF7, and you could argue that Kojima contributed more to the innovation with Snatcher and Policenauts, but those games also owe a debt to earlier adventure games.
FF7 really just follows the work Square did with FF6, and threw a huge marketing budget behind it.
FF7 really just follows the work Square did with FF6, and threw a huge marketing budget behind it.
SystemUser
Member
FF7 was more influential. The graphics were better in FF7 than in FF6, but everything else downgraded. Making the game pretty was more important than making a game.I could go line by line feature by feature and list how FF7 is stripped down compared to FF6. FF7 could play FMV of CGI, but is very much the inferior RPG.
When I first got access to Mario 64; I think slept about 5 hours over the course of a weekend. I spent over an hour running around outside of the castle just jumping soaking in the new experience. 3D platforming in the game was awesome, but the density of of the game seemed off. SMB 3 and SMW were so jam packed. Mario 64 had less preset activities that SMW, but manipulating Mario in 3D space was a thing of beauty.
There was a few dozen games made in the style of Mario 64, but FF7's tradeoff of presentation over game is much more prevalent.
When I first got access to Mario 64; I think slept about 5 hours over the course of a weekend. I spent over an hour running around outside of the castle just jumping soaking in the new experience. 3D platforming in the game was awesome, but the density of of the game seemed off. SMB 3 and SMW were so jam packed. Mario 64 had less preset activities that SMW, but manipulating Mario in 3D space was a thing of beauty.
There was a few dozen games made in the style of Mario 64, but FF7's tradeoff of presentation over game is much more prevalent.
dragonfart28
Banned
The question is really if the concept of camera control in third person games changed much since Mario 64.
The truth is that it didn't, even if it did become more granular.
For instance, something as mind-bogglingly successful as WoW owes its existence, in part, to Mario 64.
The truth is that it didn't, even if it did become more granular.
For instance, something as mind-bogglingly successful as WoW owes its existence, in part, to Mario 64.
DimmuBurgerKing
Member
I'm going to say Super Mario 64. Everyone saying "but platformers are dead" is missing the point. It's broader than that. I would argue that SM64 paved the way for third person 3D games, period. Including most major MMORPGs, which I still tend to treat as gigantic online platformers outside of combat.
The OP lists a respectable number of points beyond "JRPG" that FFVII brought to the medium.
The OP lists a respectable number of points beyond "JRPG" that FFVII brought to the medium.
Majmun
Member
Quake came out around the same time as Mario 64 did and controlled just as well in 3D space. If anything, I'd say Mario 64 showed us how important the analog stick was to 3D games more then any other thing it did.
dragonfart28
Banned
Simply having a character in a 3D space with a floating camera that can move around it.
Not even close. PC CD Rom games innovated and popularized cutscenes and "cinematic" games at the start of the 90s, 5-6 years before Playstation.
Not to mention that it made most of those who only owned a N64 throw their hands up in the air in disgust going, "Why do I still have this system for?", etc.
It was already bad enough that most 3rd party publishers were jumping ship towards PS1 due to easier development along with using CD's, while Nintendo stuck with those high-ass expensive cartridges. Final Fantasy VII being announced as a PS1 exclusive was the final straw.
Earthpainting
Member
Judging by the replies of this thread, I'm not even sure if I'd call Final Fanasy 7 revolutionary. It looks very iterative on the side of the actual game. To this day I kind of struggle to think of a FF7 knock-off, and I honestly can't tell if that's because no knock-offs were made, or how well clones would have blended in with other JRPGs games. The side where Square's prize pig did leave its actual mark was in its budget and advertisement. You could perhaps argue that the AAA industry seems like it was moulded from FF7's footsteps.
Mario 64 on the other hand kind of shaped control conventions, camera systems and (for better or worse) a genre.
Mario 64 on the other hand kind of shaped control conventions, camera systems and (for better or worse) a genre.
If we take this idea further. We could say FFVII caused the birth of the Wii..
DimmuBurgerKing
Member
Rockstar's Dan Houser said it best: "Anyone who makes 3-D games who says theyve not borrowed something from Mario or Zelda is lying from the games on Nintendo 64, not necessarily the ones from today."
otaku-asia
Member
To me personally, FF7 by a mile. Played it for days pretty much nonstop. Mario 64 on the other hand was a real letdown. Exploring the same levels over and over to collect yet another star... no thank you! (controls were well polished though)
nkarafo
Member
Just a question, didn't Mario 64 also created the "hub world" thing? I mean the castle from where you could access the levels, i don't remember other games before having something like that. Or at least not on that scale. Because after Mario 64, hub worlds suddenly became a thing. In the same way every FPS game had to have stealth, missions and a sniper rifle after Goldeneye...
This thread's about which game shaped the industry more, not which one you preferred.
One could argue that the overworld idea started from Legend of Zelda.
dragonfart28
Banned
Doesn't the fact that we still haven't had a proper FF7 remake seem ironic?
Maybe it's just me.
Maybe it's just me.
nkarafo
Member
You said it yourself. FF7 made an existing thing popular in a country where it was niche.
Mario 64 was new to everyone.
Also, the better game.
Hahaha. In what way is FFVII a better game than SM64? FF has aged like rotten skunk.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Oh come on! No it isn't. How do you even believe that stuff as you're typing it man?
ResidentDante
Member
This. The influence M64 had on the industry was a much longer lasting one. Sure FF7 inspired a lot of JRPG's back in the PS1 generation, but M64's new ideas lasted much further imo.
rrvv
Member
.
My argument for SM64 is that there is also 3d game that out at same time. But I guess you can say sm64 have influenced in majority of 3d game just like gta3 in open area game
SporeCrawler
Member
Almost every third person 3D game today are based on mario 64 and ocarina of time on some extent (especially in terms of camera, movement etc.). FFVIIs formula however is limited to JRPGs. Just saying cinematic gameplay is also not really specific enough as FFVII heavily relied on FMV while games nowadays use more in-game events (half life or metal gear are more direct influence) or quick time events (die hard triology, shenmue)
It is really stupid to compare features of a rpg to a jump and run but if you want to here you go.
Story, gameplay, lengh, enemie variations, boss fights, towns, secrets ... you want me to go on?
You know this thread's about how it influenced the industry in the long run, not which one you like better right?
FF7 didn't even influence FF games after 10.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
The gameplay has aged like milk. Pretty important in, yknow, a game.
Your bias is pretty obvious when you use flavored phrasing to describe a platformer.
says the dude that hasnt played the game in years i presume.
dragonfart28
Banned
Gta is both cinematic and mechanically refined.
If I were to think of this game being influenced by one of the two in the OP, Mario 64 we would be the obvious one for me.
Conversely, I would have a hard time seeing how Gta could not exist without FF7 existing first.