Anyone who expected that hasn't been paying attention. Even just looking at past NYCC reveals from Marvel would tell you not to anything big.
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Marvel's No Good, Very Bad New York Comic Con
- Thread starter LordOfLore
- Start date
Well, that's the thing: the diversity angle works when there's a wellspring of creativity behind it, without any shoehorning. Ms. Marvel is perfect because a) it captures the lives of Muslim-Americans very well, b) it captures NJ life very well, and c) it captures teenage life very well.
Contrast that to Totally Awesome Hulk -- a book I desperately try to like, and occasionally does have good insights into the AA identity from time to time -- where it's mostly dry and unrelateable.
As a visible minority, I deeply don't understand why Marvel cannot duplicate the success of Ms. Marvel. It's absolutely shocking.
Faynwulf
Member
This is the most sensible post about this topic I have ever read. And I agree completely.
I'm definitely part of the crowd who doesn't read much Marvel anymore because most of the characters I cared for in my youth are either gone completely or changed to a drastic degree.
These days I mostly read DC and creator owned books. If I pick up a Marvel book it is either a Ms. Marvel one or to see what Spidey is up to. And I have to say I don't think I ever enjoyed a Dan Slott book.
I think there is only one writer I dislike more. But I won't name him because I don't want to get lynched.
ooooh, did the comic actually get into the wild?
MHWilliams
Member
In truth, and I've said this before, we're in the middle of Marvel's downswing. Marvel is making all the wrong moves and it shows.
But prior to May 2016—only a year and some change back—we were saying the same about DC.
It's just a matter of Marvel being able to parse actionable feedback (you should have way for customers to enjoy classic versions of their heroes) and pure guff (diversity is bad).
The number of breakout characters in comics period is rather small. You can build a solid fanbase with time though.
But prior to May 2016—only a year and some change back—we were saying the same about DC.
It's just a matter of Marvel being able to parse actionable feedback (you should have way for customers to enjoy classic versions of their heroes) and pure guff (diversity is bad).
The number of breakout characters in comics period is rather small. You can build a solid fanbase with time though.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
I don't know how long it's been since you've stepped foot in a brick and mortar comic shop but ... nah man. You got this wrong. like 90% of "new" readers that might grab a book when they come in the store are gonna grab that book from the cover. If you have a new Thor movie or a Captain America movie and the next day think to yourself "I love these heros.. i'm gonna go actually buy a comic!" And you look at the covers and it's Sam Wilson and Jane... to a VAST majority of people that's not Thor or Cap. The MCU is king now and with Marvel fumbling their events, their writing AND their legacy characters what bloody chance to ANY of these new more diverse characters have? A lot of them feel like they are sent to die.
Comics are majority impulse. Once you hook someone and they set in some subs and start coming back once a month for "their" books then sure. But to hook someone new who just saw the new Marvel Billion Dollar Money Printing Machine (which is absolutely, without doubt or question, what they would like to happen) you have to play to those expectations and then work people into new books with cameos and shit.
Also - they might try not having completely shit stories sometime soon.
Anyone who wants to read Thor due to the movies would instantly be turned off by Jane Thor. They don't see it as a female Thor, they see it as that boring Natalie Portman character is now the main character. Give me Darcy Thor and I'll read.
Quesada works for Marvel Comics, not Marvel Entertainment.
I thought All-New Wolverine still sold well?
Dark Ninja
Member
Marvel makes comic books?
I would hope those retailers are at least recommending stuff like Brubaker's Cap to people coming in from the movies.
Father_Brain
Banned
Other comic publishers have been handling Disney's non-Marvel, non-Star Wars IP for a few years now, and the Big Hero 6 IP was transferred over to the Disney side to the point where (a) there was no reprint of the Marvel books to coincide with the film, (b) the film didn't even credit Marvel for the characters, and (c) the Marvel version of the characters haven't appeared since a Spider-Man one-shot in 2012. It's a weird situation given the IP's origins at Marvel, but not really surprising at all if you've been following Disney's licensing arrangements.
The diversity issue is crazy enough, but can someone explain the lenticular cover argument?
I have just sort of got into comics recently and DID buy the lenticular cover issue of Legacy #1 at a local shop. (But I mostly own stuff on comixology thanks to recent sales). What is this debate?
Just_myles
Member
I chuckled when I first saw this. Like, have you truly ran out of ideas?
In a nutshell, retailers had to buy a ridiculous amount of comics that they won't be able to shift in order to qualify to be able to get the lenticular covers.
LordOfLore
Banned
Retailers had to order 200%+ orders of issues to get the chance to order 1 or more covers. DC's covers were high quality, on just the few important issues like The Button crossover and didn't have any requirements for ordering.
They should not look like this for all that:
There's been some dispute between Marvel and Disney over Big Hero 6, creative differences As Marvel apparently dislikes what Disney has done with it. The agreement that was eventually reached specified that Disney can't publish Big hero 6 comics based on the movie, which is why the upcoming comics will be handled by a third party.
crimzonflame
Member
Lets not forget no X-Men in MvC:I
Ah, now THAT makes sense. Thanks.
I mean its weird too because I can't even tell what Legacy #1's cover is meant to transition too. Maybe between B&W ink vs. color? I literally was trying to view it all sorts of lighting conditions and I can't even tell.
Is Thor doing as well as ever when it comes to sales?
BoogieWoogie
Banned
When they lost Hickman and Secret Wars ended, they really lost something that they haven't been able to recover.
I have to find it but I read something how at least at one point female Thor was selling better than the previous male lead volume
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I liked Secret Wars a lot but it should have been a standalone.
There are no stakes in the Marvel universe anymore. Nothing matters.
Along similar lines the new Child's Play movie was cool but it completely torpedoed the storytelling potential of the series
Hulkverine sounds and looks ridiculous, but Ive learned to not judge comics based on how stupid something might seem at first.
The diversity debacle is very off-putting in the way that it completely mixes the messages. It isnt about diversity not working, its about execution (and toxic comic shops).
The diversity debacle is very off-putting in the way that it completely mixes the messages. It isnt about diversity not working, its about execution (and toxic comic shops).
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Thank god for Comixology.
I remember having to go to comic book stores by exceedingly unfriendly dudes as a kid and being followed around by these types
How about at the same point in the volume? Cuz if it's like #1 of new vs #15 of old then the new one will sell better no matter who is the lead.
moltonasty
Member
This looks wonderfully ridiculous and I want to know more about it.
Jane Thor was outselling Odinson Thor issue aligned for quite a while and currently it's pretty even with the edge probably going to Jane.
Username1198
Member
Some pretty good ones too. Im reading marvel unlimited, so Im 6 months behind, but Black Panther and the mighty Thor are really good. Star-Lord is pretty good right now too. Im getting into secret empire which is pretty fucking bad so far.
But yea, the Jane foster Thor kicks ass, alongside odinson. And black panther is excellent .
Seems like the sort of thing that Perlmutter would cook up.
Preventing Peter and Mary-Jane from being married, though seriously it was unlikely that he knew about the Northrop Grumman deal.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Comic retailers say diversity isn't working. Meanwhile, Comixology say they had an increase in female readership on their site this year.
So, who's really fucking up in bringing in diverse readers?
Is it Bendis? Everyone has beef with Marvel. No one is gonna jump on you.
So, who's really fucking up in bringing in diverse readers?
Is it Bendis? Everyone has beef with Marvel. No one is gonna jump on you.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Fucking disgusting. Wish whoever said that shit would have their store named so people can boycott their business.
Same.
Can someone please leak this shit? I want names and faces.
Can you take a pic of this? Not seeing anything on my searches.
Faynwulf
Member
Yes it it. I do think Alias and Ultimate Spider-man are good to great. But aside from that? Not much going on for me.
When I think about bad Marvel events, Bendis name springs to mind.
I really feel like more often than not his books go nowhere. One could jump into Invincible Iron-man right now and wouldn't have missed much since he took over. And I bet it will continue to be a big bag of nothing. (If this team even stays that long.)
Riri has potential but not if Bendis continues as her writer. Reading some dialogue makes me physically cringe. How did he manage to write a believable Teenager in Ultimate Spidey but fails here so spectacular? Or do I remember Ultimate through rose tinted glasses?
At least it is not as bad as "The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl". Which has in my opinion by far the worst writing and worst art that you can currently find at Marvel. Quite an achievement to stand out in those masses of bad books.
The Artisan
Member
i only care about the weeknd comic
if i have to wait longer for an infinity war trailer that's fine
if i have to wait longer for an infinity war trailer that's fine
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Now that is an unpopular opinion you'll get jumped for.
Sam as Cap wasn't the issue. Just like Bucky he had enough of a history where people wouldn't be mad about that. I forgot Laura/Wolverine, but same thing there - people like Falcon and X-23.
It was Jane-Thor, RiRi, Amadeus. Things where you were seeing "white guy out, minority character in" with a character who really hadn't been established at anywhere close to that level prior to taking the mantle, or in RiRi's case, even existed. When doing this, you want to be elevating from the B tier to the A tier. Not from the "supporting character bench" tier or the "Who?" tier.
Doing it all at once made it obvious to anyone looking that it was a hamfisted top-down editorial push, rather than a natural outgrowth of "hey we're trying to make Carol a bigger deal and have a void available, could we do something with it?"
It was Jane-Thor, RiRi, Amadeus. Things where you were seeing "white guy out, minority character in" with a character who really hadn't been established at anywhere close to that level prior to taking the mantle, or in RiRi's case, even existed. When doing this, you want to be elevating from the B tier to the A tier. Not from the "supporting character bench" tier or the "Who?" tier.
Doing it all at once made it obvious to anyone looking that it was a hamfisted top-down editorial push, rather than a natural outgrowth of "hey we're trying to make Carol a bigger deal and have a void available, could we do something with it?"
The reason the meeting was so tense was because the retailers were arguing with each other, too. Some retailers do well with diverse books, some can't manage to. In part this is because some retailers have cultivated an audience to whom these books aren't desirable, while other retailers read the writing on the wall a long time ago and started looking for fans that weren't aging men.
The idea that "the retailers" are all bad is not just a simplification, it's just wrong. Completely wrong. Two of the three biggest comic outlets in my area are run by gay men, who manage just fine with a diverse audience. The third is run by an asshole bigot, who, for some reason, has a more difficult time selling the same comics.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
It's the same dudes that think it's perfectly fine to have a wall dedicated to Zenescope variant covers of half naked ladies. They have no business strategy at all.
https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...thor-is-outselling-the-old-thor-by-30-percent
For more recent stuff you can just compare the respective sales numbers, though digital isn't tracked.
Winter Soldier is in this book for now.
Exactly. And most of them are going to go out of business. I'm friends with multiple retailers, and know about a dozen more. The smart ones figured out years ago that there was no way to sustain the industry on the aging male readership. Young men have left comics in droves for video games and youtube, while older men continue to try and strangle the industry by insisting it never grow or change. That way lies death for the industry.
The problem isn't diversity, it's that they replaced in almost one year. They played the same play over and over and it didn't feel worthy anymore.
Also, they keep cowtowing to the LCS who were being assholes during the retailers panel which is just...wow. The assholes will go away soon.
But the biggest factor?
They don't promote the books at fucking all.
They launched a number of new series this time last year, but they were too focused on event after event after event.
CIVIL WAR 2 > MONSTERS UNLEASHED > IvX > SECRET EMPIRE
Those hogged all the spotlight away from the new books and it fucking showed.
Mockingbird was nominated for a Eisner, it got canned just as it was nominated.
Why? It got buried between all the other bullshit. Marvel is its own worst enemy right now. They are trying to keep their market lead with covers, events and anything else.
It's showing. Rebirth and Metal are catching up and I feel Rebirth is just a attempt to keep the lead without doing nothing.
Also, they keep cowtowing to the LCS who were being assholes during the retailers panel which is just...wow. The assholes will go away soon.
But the biggest factor?
They don't promote the books at fucking all.
They launched a number of new series this time last year, but they were too focused on event after event after event.
CIVIL WAR 2 > MONSTERS UNLEASHED > IvX > SECRET EMPIRE
Those hogged all the spotlight away from the new books and it fucking showed.
Mockingbird was nominated for a Eisner, it got canned just as it was nominated.
Why? It got buried between all the other bullshit. Marvel is its own worst enemy right now. They are trying to keep their market lead with covers, events and anything else.
It's showing. Rebirth and Metal are catching up and I feel Rebirth is just a attempt to keep the lead without doing nothing.
Faynwulf
Member
I'll gladly take a beating for that and stand by my word.