I've no idea about the perception of the consoles from a Japanese perspective, but it seems crazy to me the Wii U could have anything even near comparable brand awareness as a playstation. It was just such a complete cultural non-entity where I am from.
I mean it definitely was not comparable in brand awareness compared to Playstation. I'm not saying it was. Just that it wasn't so invisble that people didn't know what it was. For a totally shit system it still has the best selling home console game of the generation in Splatoon.
WiiU is a total failure starting from conception. I think everyone agree with that.
Also, with MH it depends on how you define niche again. I asked early. What isn't niche software wise going by people's definitions console wise?
Now, is it possible to have a mainstream game on a niche system? For example, Mario Kart on Wii U. If the system is niche, it means it caters to a certain audience. But if a game is mainstream, it's to a wide audience. If they need the niche system to play the mainstream game, is the system still niche?
Now, is it possible to have a mainstream game on a niche system? For example, Mario Kart on Wii U. If the system is niche, it means it caters to a certain audience. But if a game is mainstream, it's to a wide audience. If they need the niche system to play the mainstream game, is the system still niche?
I think you really don't know (along with some others here) the definition of niche. Following your logic playing videogames is niche. Every gaming system is niche if you compare it to mobile. 3DS is a niche product compared to iPhone. Just making an examples, like you're are doing.
Video games per se cannot be niche or mass market outside context. First, you need to identify what the relevant market is; in our discussion, the market was mainly referring to traditional video game devices.
Given your market definition, you can start talking about segments of the market, and categorizing them. You can have a mass-market product in an extremely small market, and big niche products in large markets.
Now, in the entertainment industry, it's been something like 25-30 years that video games are not considered a niche anymore.
Now, is it possible to have a mainstream game on a niche system? For example, Mario Kart on Wii U. If the system is niche, it means it caters to a certain audience. But if a game is mainstream, it's to a wide audience. If they need the niche system to play the mainstream game, is the system still niche?
Maybe? But I think Wii U was primarily just a failure rather than a niche. All Nintendo systems cater to the 'Nintendo gamer' niche, but the Wii U didn't have any other market identity outside of that. Eg Xbox/360 were 'shooter boxes', Wii 'casual/family/waggle', PS4/Bone 'cinematic cover shooter boxes'.
Wii U? 'stub of Nintendo faithful' and that's about it.
Maybe? But I think Wii U was primarily just a failure rather than a niche. All Nintendo systems cater to the 'Nintendo gamer' niche, but the Wii U didn't have any other market identity outside of that. Eg Xbox/360 were 'shooter boxes', Wii 'casual/family/waggle', PS4/Bone 'cinematic cover shooter boxes'.
Wii U? 'stub of Nintendo faithful' and that's about it.
People defined what a niche product is. Then applied this very definition (which comes pretty much from Business 101) to PS4. There are strong signals to think that, as of today, PS4 can be considered a niche product. Remember that it is not strictly about sales but about heterogeneity of consumers' preferences. And that the relevant market is the video game market on dedicated devices.
Essentially you're saying 'only my opinion is valid' here.
If you refuse to engage in conversation in good faith, when many of us have discussed the definitions at length and in nuance, then don't engage at all.
Essentially you're saying 'only my opinion is valid' here.
If you refuse to engage in conversation in good faith, when many of us have discussed the definitions at length and in nuance, then don't engage at all.
What are you even talking about? Did you missed all my posts in the previous pages? If you didn't have a tunnel vision about every thing, maybe we could continue discussing this but it seems there isn't any point so that's why i said that.
I think you really don't know (along with some others here) the definition of niche. Following your logic playing videogames is niche. Every gaming system is niche if you compare it to mobile. 3DS is a niche product compared to iPhone. Just making an examples, like you're are doing.
OK, I am willing to admit my definition might be wrong. I think in general, just like "mainstream" the word "niche" can be relative.
So can you explain what niche means to you? From there we can maybe come to some agreement on criteria.
I'll give mine as well. Here is what I believe to be niche and mainstream.
In Japan gaming is mainstream. It is not a niche activity. Most people my age or younger play games of some sort.
The most common way people play games in on a smartphone. But a large number also play on handhelds. The 3DS is a mainstream device. It is ubiquitous in Japan (especially on mass transit) and played by people of all demographics. Kids, businessmen, housewives, etc. The Vita is a less common device and one you usually see a specific group of people playing. Typically men. Usually High School to late 20's/early 30s. Of course there are players who don't fit these demographics (one of my female friends loves the Vita) but I would consider the Vita a niche device appealing to a smaller segment of the population. That is not a cut on the Vita. I like my Vita a lot more than my 3DS. I am a self-identifying gamer. As opposed to a person to just plays games. I am niche.
Console gaming right now is very nearly a niche activity in Japan. It is surely not a mainstream activity. Most people do not regularly play console games in Japan. This is different from when the PS2 was big. It was a mainstream device with widespread appeal. So was the Famicom.
Right now people who would not normally identify themselves as "gamers", such as my wife (who hasn't really played a game since DS) and co-workers are excited about getting a Switch. It is in the mainstream consciousness.
It's not about winning or loosing. iPhone outsells the 3DS but the 3DS is not a niche product. Android outsells iPhone worldwide but the iPhone is not a niche product. The Apple Watch is the best selling smartwatch in the world but smartwatches are a niche product...
Now I am interested to hear your definition. What is a mainstream product to you. What is niche?
Actually anyone can chime in on this. Maybe we all can find common ground to agree on.
So with the Better Together Update launching today for minecraft on Xbox, mobile and PC do you guys think this is why we don't have a physical release for Minecraft Switch yet? Instead of rolling out a physical copy now just to reroll it out they are just waiting until the new version is complete and will launch it early next year?
The Better Together update is the reason there hasn't been a physical release for Minecraft on Switch yet. It will completely replace the original version, and only the Better Together version will be sold from that point onwards, so it makes sense they are not selling a version that will be outdated in a few weeks/months (old version will remain playable, but will no longer be updated, and unless I'm mistaken no longer playable online either).
Besides, all players get the new Minecraft for free, which is a bit hard to do with a physical game (Microsoft are doing it for XB1, though). Better to just release physical with the update right from the get go.
So with the Better Together Update launching today for minecraft on Xbox, mobile and PC do you guys think this is why we don't have a physical release for Minecraft Switch yet? Instead of rolling out a physical copy now just to reroll it out they are just waiting until the new version is complete and will launch it early next year?
The Better Together update is the reason there hasn't been a physical release for Minecraft on Switch yet. It will completely replace the original version, and only the Better Together version will be sold from that point onwards, so it makes sense they are not selling a version that will be outdated in a few weeks/months (old version will remain playable, but will no longer be updated, and unless I'm mistaken no longer playable online either).
Besides, all players get the new Minecraft for free, which is a bit hard to do with a physical game (Microsoft are doing it for XB1, though). Better to just release physical with the update right from the get go.
It makes sense. I have been following Better Together but it just dawned on me today that that is why they haven't bothered to do the physical update. Expecting it some time early next year for Japan then?
domination of the killing off all relevant vita support for it, current price, library and the recent release of a major third party game.
I'm not seeing how next year will be much better than this. The announced games and generally lower profile and sparse for ghe notabls ones in comparison to this year. MH is the most notable game and the ps4 simply isn't all that affected by the large quantity of third party releases for it.
OK, I am willing to admit my definition might be wrong. I think in general, just like "mainstream" the word "niche" can be relative.
So can you explain what niche means to you? From there we can maybe come to some agreement on criteria.
I'll give mine as well. Here is what I believe to be niche and mainstream.
In Japan gaming is mainstream. It is not a niche activity. Most people my age or younger play games of some sort.
The most common way people play games in on a smartphone. But a large number also play on handhelds. The 3DS is a mainstream device. It is ubiquitous in Japan (especially on mass transit) and played by people of all demographics. Kids, businessmen, housewives, etc. The Vita is a less common device and one you usually see a specific group of people playing. Typically men. Usually High School to late 20's/early 30s. Of course there are players who don't fit these demographics (one of my female friends loves the Vita) but I would consider the Vita a niche device appealing to a smaller segment of the population. That is not a cut on the Vita. I like my Vita a lot more than my 3DS. I am a self-identifying gamer. As opposed to a person to just plays games. I am niche.
Console gaming right now is very nearly a niche activity in Japan. It is surely not a mainstream activity. Most people do not regularly play console games in Japan. This is different from when the PS2 was big. It was a mainstream device with widespread appeal. So was the Famicom.
Right now people who would not normally identify themselves as "gamers", such as my wife (who hasn't really played a game since DS) and co-workers are excited about getting a Switch. It is in the mainstream consciousness.
It's not about winning or loosing. iPhone outsells the 3DS but the 3DS is not a niche product. Android outsells iPhone worldwide but the iPhone is not a niche product. The Apple Watch is the best selling smartwatch in the world but smartwatches are a niche product...
Now I am interested to hear your definition. What is a mainstream product to you. What is niche?
Actually anyone can chime in on this. Maybe we all can find common ground to agree on.
Well context will be the most important factor when using the word .
We talking about home consoles sales so then you have to break it down.
Are we talking about all home consoles sales , certain time period , software support \software sales etc etc .
What number would say niche or what would you say is the middle ground depending on context you using .
Well context will be the most important factor when using the word .
We talking about home consoles sales so then you have to break it down.
Are we talking about all home consoles sales , certain time period , software support \software sales etc etc .
What number would say niche or what would you say it the middle ground depending on context you using .
Context is key but thing is numbers still play a very large part .
Watching tv is mainstream but you still have to look at numbers and context behind them.
The numbers is how you know how show is doing \ how popular it is and then you can even break that down even more by network .
OK, I am willing to admit my definition might be wrong. I think in general, just like "mainstream" the word "niche" can be relative.
So can you explain what niche means to you? From there we can maybe come to some agreement on criteria.
I'll give mine as well. Here is what I believe to be niche and mainstream.
In Japan gaming is mainstream. It is not a niche activity. Most people my age or younger play games of some sort.
The most common way people play games in on a smartphone. But a large number also play on handhelds. The 3DS is a mainstream device. It is ubiquitous in Japan (especially on mass transit) and played by people of all demographics. Kids, businessmen, housewives, etc. The Vita is a less common device and one you usually see a specific group of people playing. Typically men. Usually High School to late 20's/early 30s. Of course there are players who don't fit these demographics (one of my female friends loves the Vita) but I would consider the Vita a niche device appealing to a smaller segment of the population. That is not a cut on the Vita. I like my Vita a lot more than my 3DS. I am a self-identifying gamer. As opposed to a person to just plays games. I am niche.
Console gaming right now is very nearly a niche activity in Japan. It is surely not a mainstream activity. Most people do not regularly play console games in Japan. This is different from when the PS2 was big. It was a mainstream device with widespread appeal. So was the Famicom.
Right now people who would not normally identify themselves as "gamers", such as my wife (who hasn't really played a game since DS) and co-workers are excited about getting a Switch. It is in the mainstream consciousness.
It's not about winning or loosing. iPhone outsells the 3DS but the 3DS is not a niche product. Android outsells iPhone worldwide but the iPhone is not a niche product. The Apple Watch is the best selling smartwatch in the world but smartwatches are a niche product...
Now I am interested to hear your definition. What is a mainstream product to you. What is niche?
Actually anyone can chime in on this. Maybe we all can find common ground to agree on.
Something isn't niche just because it appeals to a smaller segment of the population than something else. You're essentially saying the Vita is niche just because it is less popular than the 3DS.
A niche product is a product that appeals to/targets a small specialised group within a given market.
For example, the PSVR is a niche product because it targets VR gaming enthusiasts within the overall gaming market.
Or, take your Apple Watch example. Why is it a niche product? Because the smartwatch market is a specialised market within the general watch market.
The Vita is a handheld gaming console that targets the same gaming market as the 3DS. Is it as successful as the 3DS? No. But it isn't a niche product. It isn't targetting any specific smaller market within the gaming market, Sony wants all gamers to buy a Vita. Same story with the PS4.
Context is key but thing is numbers still play a very large part .
Watching tv is mainstream but you still have to look at numbers and context behind them.
The numbers is how you know how show is doing \ how popular it is and then you can even break that down even more by network .
This "niche" discussion strikes me as a bit misleading. The PS4 is niche as a console to the extent to which "consoles" are niche, and the type of games on them are. This is a problem not because of the limited demand but because the PS4 is being driven by dominance of several "niches" :mainstream mid-tier JRPGS(Tales,Nier,Persona), big ones(FF/KH), plus being the home of Western games which have a small but growing audience in Japan.
The Switch is a threat because it is a viable home for all of those categories. There has been a lot of talk about JRPGS, but the real danger I think is the near inevitable Switch version of Grand Theft Auto 5. Such a port makes far too much sense for both Rockstar and Nintendo not to happen, and the technical hurdles should not be an issue given how well the PC version scales down(it can be run on a GPD win with some compromises). The attraction of portable GTA5 won't just be popular on its own, but it will be an attack on the one area where the PS4 has had a monopoly since Microsoft abandoned the 360 in Japan, namely big-name Western games. If the Switch can get them, the PS4 dosen't just become niche, it becomes redundant.
Something isn't niche just because it appeals to a smaller segment of the population than something else. You're essentially saying the Vita is niche just because it is less popular than the 3DS.
A niche product is a product that appeals to/targets a small specialised group within a given market.
For example, the PSVR is a niche product because it targets VR gaming enthusiasts within the overall gaming market.
Or, take your Apple Watch example. Why is it a niche product? Because the smartwatch market is a specialised market within the general watch market.
The Vita is a handheld gaming console that targets the same gaming market as the 3DS. Is it as successful as the 3DS? No. But it isn't a niche product. It isn't targetting any specific smaller market within the gaming market, Sony wants all gamers to buy a Vita. Same story with the PS4.
IMO niche doesn't dictate it's small or otherwise, which are always relative, but "specialized". In this case specialized group is almost always a subset of a larger group.
Sony wanted Vita to sell as much as it can to be a mass market, but it failed. In its course, though, it found its specialization for indie games and otaku-centric/VN games. It's why publishers are confident in releasing Vita games in 2017 and 2018, because its specialized audience is receptive to these kind of games. It became a niche product not by design.
OK, I am willing to admit my definition might be wrong. I think in general, just like "mainstream" the word "niche" can be relative.
So can you explain what niche means to you? From there we can maybe come to some agreement on criteria.
I'll give mine as well. Here is what I believe to be niche and mainstream.
In Japan gaming is mainstream. It is not a niche activity. Most people my age or younger play games of some sort.
The most common way people play games in on a smartphone. But a large number also play on handhelds. The 3DS is a mainstream device. It is ubiquitous in Japan (especially on mass transit) and played by people of all demographics. Kids, businessmen, housewives, etc. The Vita is a less common device and one you usually see a specific group of people playing. Typically men. Usually High School to late 20's/early 30s. Of course there are players who don't fit these demographics (one of my female friends loves the Vita) but I would consider the Vita a niche device appealing to a smaller segment of the population. That is not a cut on the Vita. I like my Vita a lot more than my 3DS. I am a self-identifying gamer. As opposed to a person to just plays games. I am niche.
Console gaming right now is very nearly a niche activity in Japan. It is surely not a mainstream activity. Most people do not regularly play console games in Japan. This is different from when the PS2 was big. It was a mainstream device with widespread appeal. So was the Famicom.
Right now people who would not normally identify themselves as "gamers", such as my wife (who hasn't really played a game since DS) and co-workers are excited about getting a Switch. It is in the mainstream consciousness.
It's not about winning or loosing. iPhone outsells the 3DS but the 3DS is not a niche product. Android outsells iPhone worldwide but the iPhone is not a niche product. The Apple Watch is the best selling smartwatch in the world but smartwatches are a niche product...
Now I am interested to hear your definition. What is a mainstream product to you. What is niche?
Actually anyone can chime in on this. Maybe we all can find common ground to agree on.
We can agree that gaming in Japan is mainstream. 3DS can be cobsidered a mainstream platform too. PSVITA is not, it's sales through it's life and software support proves that. It never had any appealing software, it managed to stay relevant thanks to multiplatform releases and companies rarely trusted the system with exclusive games. Seems like it won't hit 7m which is disappointing. I think you could say it's a niche product. PS4 from the other hand has good hardware sales (except the first year) and good software sales. Almost all the third parties are on board, it has a relatively good baseline and big hardware jumps with every big game. Digital sales seems to be stronger too compared to other platforms. Unless PS5 releases in 2019 in Japan, i think it has a decent chance of hitting 10m. I don't think all this applies to a niche product.
Whats so hard to understand that there is product which target mainstream audience and end up getting niche audience?
Like said, Vita is handheld and a successor of PSP. Handheld in Japan is the biggest thing so it sure as hell is not a niche product.
But due to Sony incompetence, Vita end up flopping so bad that it end up only with niche audience.
PS4 on the other hand in Japan should be a niche product as console is the go to platform anymore when handheld and mobile had been reigning the country gaming industries. Console in japan is mostly hardcore gamers consumption and unless there is something huge like Splatoon to pull those mainstream fans into the platform, they are often supported only by hardcore gamers.
Something isn't niche just because it appeals to a smaller segment of the population than something else. You're essentially saying the Vita is niche just because it is less popular than the 3DS.
A niche product is a product that appeals to/targets a small specialised group within a given market.
For example, the PSVR is a niche product because it targets VR gaming enthusiasts within the overall gaming market.
Or, take your Apple Watch example. Why is it a niche product? Because the smartwatch market is a specialised market within the general watch market.
The Vita is a handheld gaming console that targets the same gaming market as the 3DS. Is it as successful as the 3DS? No. But it isn't a niche product. It isn't targetting any specific smaller market within the gaming market, Sony wants all gamers to buy a Vita. Same story with the PS4.
I am sure Sony wanted the Vita to be a mainstream product. But in the end it wound up as a niche product. The games after the first year became more specialized. Family titles like "minna no golf" stopped being made but visual novels and RPGs thrived on the system. So more niche titles were brought to the system. The only mainstream hit the system had was Minecraft but that was not enough to make it a mainstream system. The Vita isn't niche because it sold less than the 3DS it is niche because it became a product that primarily sold to a certain subset of gamers. It wasn't the plan, but it was the result.
I like your smartwatch example. Yeah it is a niche product in watches.
We can agree that gaming in Japan is mainstream. 3DS can be cobsidered a mainstream platform too. PSVITA is not, it's sales through it's life and software support proves that. It never had any appealing software, it managed to stay relevant thanks to multiplatform releases and companies rarely trusted the system with exclusive games. Seems like it won't hit 7m which is disappointing. I think you could say it's a niche product. PS4 from the other hand has good hardware sales (except the first year) and good software sales. Almost all the third parties are on board, it has a relatively good baseline and big hardware jumps with every big game. Digital sales seems to be stronger too compared to other platforms. Unless PS5 releases in 2019 in Japan, i think it has a decent chance of hitting 10m. I don't think all this applies to a niche product.
I'm just curious, if stock were available, do you think Splatoon could've outperformed the week 1 sales of DQ11? On one platform I mean, I doubt it could've outperformed both of them combined.
I am sure Sony wanted the Vita to be a mainstream product. But in the end it wound up as a niche product. The games after the first year became more specialized. Family titles like "minna no golf" stopped being made but visual novels and RPGs thrived on the system. So more niche titles were brought to the system. The only mainstream hit the system had was Minecraft but that was not enough to make it a mainstream system. The Vita isn't niche because it sold less than the 3DS it is niche because it became a product that primarily sold to a certain subset of gamers. It wasn't the plan, but it was the result.
I like your smartwatch example. Yeah it is a niche product in watches.
Like PSVR is a sub genre of the current gaming which is VR and it required hefty amount of investment to even get into the platform. Thats also not attributing that the audience it is targeted is also a very small gaming enthusiast which is why it is a niche product.
PS4 is niche in audience aspect in Japan as console is considered niche. However in the gaming industry, it sure is not niche as most hardcore gamer in Japan would get PS4 as it is currently the go to platform and it had been positioned by Sony to attract all the gaming fans.
Outside of Japan though, PS4 is a mainstream item as the popularity of console platform is soo much bigger.
I'm just curious, if stock were available, do you think Splatoon could've outperformed the week 1 sales of DQ11? On one platform I mean, I doubt it could've outperformed both of them combined.
If stock had been available in the months leading up to Splatoon 2, I would say yes. But I don't think it was going to sell 1mil hardware units on launch day.
I'm just curious, if stock were available, do you think Splatoon could've outperformed the week 1 sales of DQ11? On one platform I mean, I doubt it could've outperformed both of them combined.
Like PSVR is a sub genre of the current gaming which is VR and it required hefty amount of investment to even get into the platform. Thats also not attributing that the audience it is targeted is also a very small gaming enthusiast which is why it is a niche product.
PS4 is niche in audience aspect in Japan as console is considered niche. However in the gaming industry, it sure is not niche as most hardcore gamer in Japan would get PS4 as it is currently the go to platform and it had been positioned by Sony to attract all the gaming fans.
Outside of Japan though, PS4 is a mainstream item as the popularity of console platform is soo much bigger.
Oh yeah, i forgot to say that PS4 surely can not be considered a main steam product, with the same meaning as 3DS. I think it's right in the middle between niche and main steam. Maybe popular is the right word? I guess 10m would make it a popular system in the end, considering all factors today (market, mobile etc)
Yeah, I agree, a number is hard to pin down. Like if the PS4 sold 5 mil in it's first year we wouldn't have this discussion but since it took 3 the absolute number is the same but the context is different. Thank you for your opinion.
Can devices be niche in some markets and mainstream in others? I've never really heard someone refer to a product as both mainstream and niche at the same time? Generally if a mass market mainstream product sells a huge amount WW. I wouldn't hear someone call it a niche product just because one market it doesn't sell as well comparatively. It'd be like calling the 3DS a niche product in the western gaming market because it's dominated by PS4/X1 and Smartphone.
Oh yeah, i forgot to say that PS4 surely can not be considered a main steam product, with the same meaning as 3DS. I think it's right in the middle between niche and main steam. Maybe popular is the right word? I guess 10m would make it a popular system in the end, considering all factors today (market, mobile etc)
