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Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain | Review Thread | Words That Kill

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Probably bad wording on my end. But they are less than before. That is not Metal Gear to me. There is no Codec screen The Phantom Pain. Majority of the talking happens through the tapes...which in my honest opinion is dumb and ancient.

Isn't being able to listen to the equivalent of a CODEC whilst still playing less "dumb and ancient" than having to interrupt the gameplay flow by watching an essentially static screen for twenty minutes...? Don't get me wrong, I love the old CODEC but even as a fan I can see that they were due an update.
 

SyberWolf

Member
I hope most of the story is still told in cutscenes. I didn't mind the cutscenes in previous games and in fact, love them. Having the story being told through tapes dampens my interest a little.

there will still be a nice chunk of cutscenes, but lots of finer details about the plot will most likely be in tapes
 

DrBo42

Member
From NextGenBlog

The criticism levelled at Metal Gear Solid 4 has been taken on board and feedback used to brush up his narrative techniques. Cutscenes are shorter, getting to the point quicker, with the occasional one allowing you to “interact” by moving the camera around. Better than that, pretty much all codec and radio chatter happens while you’re playing. No more staring at the same screen for hours. Fear not though, story is still a big part of The Phantom Pain, huge even, but there’s now a perfect balance between that and the gameplay. Sorry, I mean glorious gameplay.

Seems like he found the middle ground. Sounds awesome.

It's so damn strange to me that some say story is barely there or it's scaled back while others say it's just as present and crazy as always. How is the amount of story subjective? Am I being dumb? Are some people taking the tapes and side missions into account while others aren't? I don't get it.
 

Sn4ke_911

If I ever post something in Japanese which I don't understand, please BAN me.
This is from the Metal Gear Informer review.

He is a die hard MGS fan.

Kojima-san treated this like the last Metal Gear Solid. He went all out and pushed the story to absolutely heart breaking and mind bending new heights. As a personal fan of this series since 1998 when my older brother (Mahalo bro) rented a PlayStation from a local video store I have been attached to the story. As I grew older, the franchise grew older with me, taught me lessons of life I couldn’t get in any other form. And this game is no exception. When you put it down, the story will stick with you. It could easily stand up against any TV or movie.
 

Chariot

Member
Why are you guys so dramatic? Of course there are still cut scenes that drive the story, you have seen the trailers and read the reviews. There are just tapes with additional information thatt you can listen to when you seem fit and while doing something else. If ya ask me that's a good development. You can get more insight into the story while collecting sheep.
 

NekoFever

Member
Has Ars Technica been posted? It's only on their UK site at the moment so might have been missed:

People expect their sequels to be bigger, better, and more complex than what has come before, while also demanding they stay true to what they know and love. Metal Gear Solid V is one of those rare occasions where a game threads the needle between those two somewhat contradictory expectations, to great effect.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/gaming/201...-5-is-cliched-confused-and-utterly-brilliant/
 
My hype at this is pretty friggin low for someone that used to be a huge MGS fan. I just think open world in too many cases is toxic to tight game design but what really worries me is the story and how it is paced. That said I don't remember having any problems with it in Peace Walker (outside of the plot being pretty baaad). I'm fine with casettes but I would prefer codec.

Damnit if Bauer compromised the narrative :(

The gameplay in GZ was "good" but not something that would carry an 20+ hour game for me alone when we are talking about goddamn MGS.
 

Dragon

Banned
Why are you guys so dramatic? Of course there are still cut scenes that drive the story, you have seen the trailers and read the reviews. There are just tapes with additional information thatt you can listen to when you seem fit and while doing something else. If ya ask me that's a good development. You can get more insight into the story while collecting sheep.

It's one thing if it's just additional information that isn't required to understand the story. That doesn't seem to be the case here. Most reviews I've read complained about the optional tapes having actual importance. Nothing missable should be important to a game's story IMO.
 
Isn't being able to listen to the equivalent of a CODEC whilst still playing less "dumb and ancient" than having to interrupt the gameplay flow by watching an essentially static screen for twenty minutes...? Don't get me wrong, I love the old CODEC but even as a fan I can see that they were due an update.

It's purely subjective. I would rather see a codec screen. But honestly, will you call tapes an upgrade? An upgrade should make the feature better. This is a downgrade in my opinion.

Imagine this. You are listening to a tape. And Kaz calls in. What happens? You hear them both.

Now you tell me which is better?
 

SomTervo

Member
My hype is zero now. I am going into the game with zero expectations. It seems like there is nothing in the game that sounds Metal Gear to me atm. I hope this changes when I play the game.



With all due respect to Yong, he is not a journalist. He runs a "fan" community. There is obviously going to be some level of bias in his coverage.

Reviews that came out today are not credible. Reviewing games in a controlled environment are not acceptable to me. I am not saying that they are entirely wrong and some of their concerns are legit. But honestly, playing 2015's biggest game under PR's watch...what kind of credibility do you think these reviews carry?

All videogames journalism is enthusiast press. It all features heavy bias.

And going further than that, all journalism is subjective opinion unless it's simply news reportage or event reportage. But even the latter usually comes with a dash of priorities and a side-helping of publication prerogative.

However, the review 'boot camps' are ridiculous because of the time limit they impose, rather than any PR 'watching eye'. When you say to someone 'you have three days to finish this thing', they're going to rush and focus on pressing ahead, rather than having fun and enjoying the game. That's the nature of giving someone a time limit.

I'm gunning for that full knightfall protocol in Batman AK, but it really sucks that I have to go through all riddles to get there.

I normally hate doing secondary missions in open world games, and I'm around 97% in Batman AK, but that's because the game world and its characters have been interesting enough for me to want to resolve everything. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't bother going for the 100%.

Those riddles are a chore and I'm only trying to get them all because I'm already close enough.

The Riddles get really fun and satisfying when you get to 10. Having it quantified to such a small amount, and the story starts kicking off again... It's really great, and worth blasting through the other 240 for, imo.

I really liked the design because some open world have too much 'optional' content. When you need 100% to get the game's ending, none of the content is 'optional'. The developers are saying, categorically: 'Here is what you need to do to finish the game. Go have fun doing it.' Rather than, say, in Ubisoft games: 'So if you want to 'finish' the game, do twenty of these mediocre story missions and see 1/5th of the gameworld. But, if you want, there are also all these hundreds of things you can do, just if you want. Some of them might be shit, some might be great, but you won't know until you go try!'

Imo the quality of content overall is diluted in games like that when so much stuff is optional and just there in the world. I reckon MGSV's more focused main missions and side-ops that impact all your abilities and resources will sidestep this - along with the fact that getting the 'True' ending will probably be meaningful and well-signposted, more like in Arkham Knight, making it all pretty satisfying.

It's so damn strange to me that some say story is barely there or it's scaled back while others say it's just as present and crazy as always. How is the amount of story subjective? Am I being dumb? Are some people taking the tapes and side missions into account while others aren't? I don't get it.

I think a lot of the disparity comes down to the press 'boot camps'.

Journos at these boot camps probably went running through the game's main story missions to 'complete' the game's story. They will ignore, or not be aware of, the fact that:

- many side ops contain significant story points, this isn't signposted and you need more extra time to play/find them all
- many cassettes contain background story like Codecs used to, and you need lots of time to play these
- apparently we need to complete certain prerequisites to get the full conclusion for the game, and that would take more time than these journalists have

The few journos who have had the time to really soak in all this extra content have said the story is absolutely satisfactory.
 
My hype at this is pretty friggin low for someone that used to be a huge MGS fan. I just think open world in too many cases is toxic to tight game design but what really worries me is the story and how it is paced. That said I don't remember having any problems with it in Peace Walker (outside of the plot being pretty baaad). I'm fine with casettes but I would prefer codec.

Damnit if Bauer compromised the narrative :(

The gameplay in GZ was "good" but not something that would carry an 20+ hour game for me alone when we are talking about goddamn MGS.

How would Sutherland have compromised the narrative? Kojima obviously wanted the guy to voice Big Boss. I doubt he said I'm doing this or I'm not doing that.
 

Jhn

Member
They also said that the game has little to no humour. Yong Yea and other rebiews stated that bossfights are amazing and that there is a lot of Kojima humour to be found in the tapes. I expect that IGN played the game with chickenhead and didn't listen to a single tape.

Even if they didn't listen to a single tape, that statement is ludicrous. We've seen as many ridiculous/humorous gameplay elements as we have serious ones.

Idol-picture cardboard boxes, horse-poo car takedowns... Fuck, the fulton itself is pretty damn slapstick, and that's a huge part of the game.
 
My hype at this is pretty friggin low for someone that used to be a huge MGS fan. I just think open world in too many cases is toxic to tight game design but what really worries me is the story and how it is paced. That said I don't remember having any problems with it in Peace Walker (outside of the plot being pretty baaad). I'm fine with casettes but I would prefer codec.

Damnit if Bauer compromised the narrative :(

The gameplay in GZ was "good" but not something that would carry an 20+ hour game for me alone when we are talking about goddamn MGS.

everything ive seen has said sutherland does a good job, and the lack of dialogue from boss is jarring but seems more like a choice they intended.

im def not caught up on all the reviews though.
 
It's purely subjective. I would rather see a codec screen. But honestly, will you call tapes an upgrade? An upgrade should make the feature better. This is a downgrade in my opinion.

Imagine this. You are listening to a tape. And Kaz calls in. What happens? You hear them both.

Now you tell me which is better?

Like I told someone else, stand in one spot and spin snake around in circles and it's basically a codec convo then.
 
All videogames journalism is enthusiast press. It all features heavy bias.

And going further than that, all journalism is subjective opinion unless it's simply news reportage or event reportage. But even the latter usually comes with a dash of priorities and a side-helping of publication prerogative.

However, the review 'boot camps' are ridiculous because of the time limit they impose, rather than any PR 'watching eye'. When you say to someone 'you have three days to finish this thing', they're going to rush and focus on pressing ahead, rather than having fun and enjoying the game. That's the nature of giving someone a time limit.

Although I have different interpretation, your opinion is similar to mine. Anything under controlled situations cannot be taken seriously.

Like I told someone else, stand in one spot and spin snake around in circles and it's basically a codec convo then.

Not sure if I follow you. Sorry.
 

Skele7on

Banned

Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, but I can see from your name/avi that you're a mega fan of the series and that's cool,
but what you also need to understand and probably read at no point is anyone saying this isn't a metal gear, it's just an evolved form.

If you look at the previous entries in the series Kojima has always pushed the boundaries of what he had to play with at the time,
I think with TPP he has found and achieved what he has been trying to do since metal gear.

Yes you want to feel a nostalgia overload when playing the last ever Kojima MGS,
but what you need to see and realize is the fact that this game is set out to be the anti MGS4.
If you want a game full of nostalgia and feels play this,
this game is an entry in which we see a hero fall to become ultimately the villain.
 

SomTervo

Member
Although I have different interpretation, your opinion is similar to mine. Anything under controlled situations cannot be taken seriously.

Yeah, that's basically what I was saying :) we agree fundamentally, just different perspectives.

So, there is really no button to listen to the tapes after we picked them up ? A la Bioshock ?

> Go in the iDroid.
> Scroll down to Cassettes.
> Use L1/R1 to swap tabs.
> Profit
 

Gun Animal

Member
Just a reminder to everyone arguing about tapes that you can also listen to them in the companion app, even when you're out and about. Thats basically perfect for me.

The only tapes I'll listen to in-game are the mission briefings. Everything else I'll check out during my commute. That's part of what made Peace Walker so awesome on PSP: little radio dramas you could listen to on the go.
 

duckroll

Member
Also noticed this on RPS:

"Many (if not all) of the reviews that are already online were written by journalists who were forced to play MGS V for eight hours every day, in regimented timeslots, while under instructions to share only the information that was deemed necessary by Konami higher-ups. Far from being a work experience course, this was a four-day review event, in which writers attempted to complete a sprawling open-world stealth game within a strict time limit. Or chose to do a review-in-progress instead, savouring the experience."

Yup. Fucking gross. :(
 
Not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, but I can see from your name/avi that you're a mega fan of the series and that's cool,
but what you also need to understand and probably read at no point is anyone saying this isn't a metal gear, it's just an evolved form.

If you look at the previous entries in the series Kojima has always pushed the boundaries of what he had to play with at the time,
I think with TPP he has found and achieved what he has been trying to do since metal gear.

Yes you want to feel a nostalgia overload when playing the last ever Kojima MGS,
but what you need to see and realize is the fact that this game is set out to be the anti MGS4.
If you want a game full of nostalgia and feels play this,
this game is an entry in which we see a hero fall to become ultimately the villain.

My entire point is that Metal Gear has specific ingredients to them that make them unique in the first place. From what I have read or seen, TPP seems to have carried over almost nothing.
 
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying :) we agree fundamentally, just different perspectives.



> Go in the iDroid.
> Scroll down to Cassettes.
> Use L1/R1 to swap tabs.
> Profit

I know that, but I thought they would integrate a function to just press a button to listen to tape after picking it up.
 

Chariot

Member
It's one thing if it's just additional information that isn't required to understand the story. That doesn't seem to be the case here. Most reviews I've read complained about the optional tapes having actual importance. Nothing missable should be important to a game's story IMO.
I think you unlock some tapes automatically while you progress. I guess those are the most important. If you don't want to delve deeper you don't have to, but if you want the whole puzzle you going to listen to it. Could be wrong though, reviews didn't seem to know either.

Even if they didn't listen to a single tape, that statement is ludicrous. We've seen as many ridiculous/humorous gameplay elements as we have serious ones.

Idol-picture cardboard boxes, horse-poo car takedowns... Fuck, the fulton itself is pretty damn slapstick, and that's a huge part of the game.
Yup, that's why I am wary to trust the IGN review. Only reason why I read them anyways is because I can't play the game yet.

Like I told someone else, stand in one spot and spin snake around in circles and it's basically a codec convo then.
Yup. If you just want to listen, get to a safe place and listen. I did this in GZ in the intel mission. Got the tape and laid somewhere for eight minutes.
 

Javin98

Banned
there will still be a nice chunk of cutscenes, but lots of finer details about the plot will most likely be in tapes
I know, but I really enjoyed those long cutscenes in previous games. Kojima's direction is just superb that I can easily sit through a 30 minutes long cutscene and enjoy it.
 
Codec and tapes have their pros & cons. I prefer tapes, but I could see why Codec is preferable too.

Codec :
+ Has portraits, makes the conversation feel more animated.
+ Is contextual, feels like you're actively obtaining that conversation.
- Stops gameplay for conversation.
- Easily missable conversations by not being in the right place/time.
- Only allow for conversation based info-dumps.

Tapes:
+ Repeat listens. Allow you to listen to them at anytime.
+ Less missable. You can find tapes for stuff without needing to be at a point of time.
+ Doesn't stop gameplay. Your pace isn't stopped.
+ Allows for more variety of information. Audio diaries, conversations, etc.
- Weakens the "conversation moment" by not being contextual. Listening to Chico being cheery after he gets tortured in-game may not be right timing-wise.
- No portraits, so rely entirely on voice-work.

I would love a hybrid where you'd get a small I-Droid-ish portrait pop up when you listen to tapes, but in general, I prefer tapes over Codec.
 
You should check out the Twitted feed of the guy who runs that site. He is a big Konami fan. He also runs a "fan" site for the PES series.

https://twitter.com/AsimTanvir/with_replies

Just because he gave our most anticipated game a 10/10 does not mean I have to agree with his review. Plus he finished the game on 31st July under the surveillance of Konami.

Yeah i read that in his profile at the end of the review. I dont see how that has much to do with the quote I quoted.

I'm just happy there is a balance with gameplay/cutscene. I actually can see this the other way. If the game had 20+min cutscenes and constant interruption, I can see reviewers and a lot of GAF actually saying its "dumb and ancient" by modern standards. Based on all the reviews i've seen so far, Kojima took the majority criticism and seemingly found a nice middle ground.

Nonetheless, based on the reviews rich stories and high quality cinematography sound like its still in there. And yeah I agree with you controlled environment reviews are suspiciously weird.
 
Okay, you guys gotta read this.

http://www.indianvideogamer.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36832&page=93#entry2096507

It seems that all reviews were heavily watched over by Konami!

Alrighty then just completely brush off what I said just to repeat what you've already previously said.

Well, I hold on to my opinion. You have yours and I respect that. I am not here to cause any debate. I am a fan and I have the right to raise my concerns and trust me I am not the only one.
 

Molemitts

Member
I understand some Metal Gear fan's disappointment about the lesser focus on cutcenes, but for me, I see this as a good thing, if it's handled well. I don't like cutscenes, I don't think they're a good way of telling a story in a game, but despite all that I really enjoyed the wacky story and crazy reveals of the series when I played it for the first time this year. I feel as if those themes can be represented through gameplay then this could be a brilliant game. The tapes might seem cliche to some, but they're not that different from the codec scenes, except they don't take control away from you. Telling story without taking control away from the player will always be preferable in my opinion. Combine that indirect story telling with some scripted sequences, which, during gameplay, could present a crazy situations that we love from the series and you'd have a great method of story telling, in my opinion.

I'd not gonna strongly defend or attack it yet, though. I haven't played the game so I could go either way, but if handled well I think I'll enjoy it a lot.
 

duckroll

Member
My entire point is that Metal Gear has specific ingredients to them that make them unique in the first place. From what I have read or seen, TPP seems to have carried over almost nothing.

I don't think this is really true.

Metal Gear, at least to me, is first and foremost an infiltration sandbox action game with a ton of quirky Japanese-flavored humor presented as a love song to Hollywood action movies. I think that's a description which fits every single one of them, from the first Metal Gear all the way to The Phantom Pain. The sandbox has grown exponentially larger, the nature of the infiltration area has evolved over the entries, and the various influences of both the Japanese humor and the Hollywood action film feel have changed based on the themes of each game, but by and large the formula remains intact.

Have things changed dramatically in some ways? Absolutely. Are some people not particularly happy with the changes? Sure. But these are not things which specifically made Metal Gear what it is. Metal Gear existed before the long cutscenes. Metal Gear existed before radar. Metal Gear existed before vision cones. Metal Gear existed before great boss battles. I think it's a pity that some things have been left behind as the game changed to accommodate for certain evolutions, but in the end, I think it still feels like Metal Gear.
 

Sn4ke_911

If I ever post something in Japanese which I don't understand, please BAN me.
2015-08-2414_50_19-hi4hsry.png
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
It's purely subjective. I would rather see a codec screen. But honestly, will you call tapes an upgrade? An upgrade should make the feature better. This is a downgrade in my opinion.

Imagine this. You are listening to a tape. And Kaz calls in. What happens? You hear them both.

Now you tell me which is better?

Of course it's subjective. Saying you think they're "dumb" is fine, but to say that the tape system is "ancient" is pretty much demonstrably wrong. Being able to play whilst you listen is absolutely an evolution of the system, no if nor buts.

To answer your question, keeping the kind of gameplay that TPP offers in mind, I'd choose the tapes. If this were old-school MGS, I'd take the CODEC.
 

Arkeband

Banned
The complaints about lack of story are funny, when we've sat through like 20 minutes of trailers now that are pure story and look like the craziest shit we've ever seen.
 
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