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[PandaPandaPanda]

been watching sc2 since it came out and i'm not surprised

sc2 is a shitty game that is living off of brood war's name only and if it was called a different game by any means it probably would have been left in the dust a long time ago

edit: and before says "it's a lol/dota2 fanboy lolz" i don't even watch either game

 

[Tacitus_]

Why are MOBA's dominating eSports when shooters and fighters are much more fun to watch, especially for the casual crowd?

Counter Strike and Quake had their time in the sun. The people are just moving on.

 

[bootski]

Please refrain from failing and take a minute to browse how active I am, and have been for years, in the SC-community.

wait i'm confused. you just said it's a failure of a game, but you've logged hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into it? even buying the expansion?

 

[antitrop]

wait i'm confused. you just said it's a failure of a game, but you've logged hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into it? even buying the expansion?

Yes, yes, we can move on from this now.

 

[imBask]

Because shooters are hard to spectate and the "illuminati" of fighting games are intentionally keeping the genre more underground.

Also because MOBAs have like 100x the playerbase of those other genres.

EVO feels like a "community happening", while MLG feels like a professional event

I enjoy both, really, but i'm okay with the current format keeping the FGC out of the big leagues.

about the MLG news : lots of people here seem to be in the same situation as I am about SC2 : I don't enjoy playing the game but I will watch every tournament. That's problematic, the game just isn't appealing to people who don't want to invest a billion hours into the game

 

[Tacitus_]

wait i'm confused. you just said it's a failure of a game, but you've logged hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into it? even buying the expansion?

It's Yoshi. Give him a couple of days and he's praising it as the best thing ever before flipping to cursing it to the deepest hells again.

 

[Pandaman]

One is an RTS, the other a MOBA. They're two completely fucking different games, but we can't have multiple e-sports games out there apparently.

the dota and sc2 fanbases both use the same equipment and drink the same energy drinks, they are effectively the same type of consumer. So it is quite possible that esports isn't big enough for the both of them.

 

[The Blackrose]

MLG is not really about the long term though. They have games that are currently popular and they'll mercilessly drop the game if viewership drops.

While I'd agree with this when you consider how quick fighting games were dropped and a number of FPS getting sent to the glue factory, I get the feeling that there's more to this than viewership.

 

[Ikuu]

about the MLG news : lots of people here seem to be in the same situation as I am about SC2 : I don't enjoy playing the game but I will watch every tournament. That's problematic, the game just isn't appealing to people who don't want to invest a billion hours into the game

Blizzard focused far too much on 1v1 ladder and completely neglected custom games, not sure how that happened with all of the customs that War3 had. Unless you wanted to Ladder there was no real point in running the game, something like Dota with DotaTV is a much more social game.

 

[Haunted]

Why are MOBA's dominating eSports when shooters and fighters are much more fun to watch, especially for the casual crowd?

I'd argue that shooters are pretty confusing and hard to spectate for the casual crowd compared to the bird's eye view of an RTS or moba.

FGC wants to keep their base small and "underground", trying to get more professionalism and money involved is seen as a negative in the scene.

 

[Yoshichan]

It's Yoshi. Give him a couple of days and he's praising it as the best thing ever before flipping to cursing it to the deepest hells again.

50th time in this thread.

I'm outta here.

 

[Pandaman]

wait i'm confused. you just said it's a failure of a game, but you've logged hundreds, if not thousands, of hours into it? even buying the expansion?

Blizzards handing of the game; in terms of how they've handled balance, map pools, user created content and support for the professional scene can all be quite easily deemed a failure.

certainly you can understand how someone could contribute so much time and effort to a game but then be frustrated with how the developers handled the game as time went on?

just because he played the game a lot doesn't mean he has to remain optimistic about its prospects and he can certainly consider it a failure compared to what could have been.

 

[AdventureRacing]

I guess that makes a lot of sense. Maybe next year Blizzard will be more organized about their tournament scene.

Where will the game be by then? Blizzard need to start making a lot of right moves before next year unless they really want to screw the scene over. I'm not sure they're capable of making them.

 

[Tacitus_]

Blizzard focused far too much on 1v1 ladder and completely neglected custom games, not sure how that happened with all of the customs that War3 had. Unless you wanted to Ladder there was no real point in running the game, something like Dota with DotaTV is a much more social game.

They fucked up the custom game service hardcore. I didn't really try it out, but people were bitching about it all the time.

50th time in this thread.

I'm outta here.

You know it's the truth though

 

[EscapingJail]

I'd argue that shooters are pretty confusing and hard to spectate for the casual crowd compared to the bird's eye view of an RTS or moba.

FGC wants to keep their player base small and underground, trying to get more professionalism and money involved is seen as a negative in the scene.

Pretty much.

MLG doesn't want to deal with Blizzards new WCS rules.

 

[imBask]

Blizzard focused far too much on 1v1 ladder and completely neglected custom games, not sure how that happened with all of the customs that War3 had. Unless you wanted to Ladder there was no real point in running the game, something like Dota with DotaTV is a much more social game.

MOBA's don't feel like a chore, there.

And I don't even like moba's and don't play them unless i'm playing with 4 other friends who know I don't care about the game... but at least I can have a little fun with them

 

[BizzyBum]

FGC wants to keep their base small and "underground", trying to get more professionalism and money involved is seen as a negative in the scene.

Hm, really? I feel like everywhere I read they want to increase prize money and get it more into the eSports realm.

Until then... COLLUSION.

 

[Pandaman]

Blizzard focused far too much on 1v1 ladder and completely neglected custom games, not sure how that happened with all of the customs that War3 had. Unless you wanted to Ladder there was no real point in running the game, something like Dota with DotaTV is a much more social game.

blizzards 'focus' on 1v1 ladder left much to be desired too.

They literally did not develop new maps for sc2 in the first two years of the game, the 'new maps' they were introducing were designed before beta.

shockingly enough, the maps they designed when sc2 was a 20 minute 1 base game where roaches were effectively immortal did not quite fit with how the games meta had actually developed.

 

[Yoshichan]

Blizzards handing of the game; in terms of how they've handled balance, map pools, user created content and support for the professional scene can all be quite easily deemed a failure.

certainly you can understand how someone could contribute so much time and effort to a game but then be frustrated with how the developers handled the game as time went on?

just because he played the game a lot doesn't mean he has to remain optimistic about its prospects and he can certainly consider it a failure compared to what could have been.

Thank you for being the only one who understands.

 

[Miletius]

Where will the game be by then? Blizzard need to start making a lot of right moves before next year unless they really want to screw the scene over. I'm not sure they're capable of making them.

I agree but if the hypothesis is that they crowded out MLG due to their own compressed schedule then they can't really change anything until they are done with the series (which means post-Blizzcon at the earliest). So, plan for something better next season, which isn't quite next year, but more or less what I mean.

 

[Haunted]

Hm, really? I feel like everywhere I read they want to increase prize money and get it more into the eSports realm.

Until then... COLLUSION.

I wish. I mean, I know there are people who like fighting games who want that to happen (me included), but there's significant pushback from within the community to any sort of expansion or growth past this community grassroots effort. Just mention "esports" in the weekly FGC threads - they consider it a joke/bad word.

when keeping it real goes wrong

 

[zoukka]

SC2 just wasn't that interesting to spectate. Well I did watch replays for years so this may sound weird :b

But at some point the game just felt so fucking boring to watch.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Blizzard are just so slow to adapt to the market.

They should have made SC2 F2P ages ago.

They should have acquired or made their own Dota in the half a decade it was super popular before LoL came out.

Blizzard All-Stars is going to return Blizzard to their former glory. Just trust me on this, GUT FEELING. Seriously, BALLs is going to surprise.

 

[antitrop]

SC2 just wasn't that interesting to spectate. Well I did watch replays for years so this may sound weird :b

But at some point the game just felt so fucking boring to watch.

Bad maps.

 

[Chris R]

Only blizzard to blame :/

 

[AdventureRacing]

blizzards 'focus' on 1v1 ladder left much to be desired too.

They literally did not develop new maps for sc2 in the first two years of the game, the 'new maps' they were introducing were designed before beta.

Yep. New maps are one of the main things that can keep the scene interesting. In MOBAs there are tons of unit combinations and that can create a lot more variety. SC2 doesn't have that but it can constantly change the map pool to make things fresh and interesting. Different styles of maps can create completely different styles of play. They can also be used to balance the game without making huge changes that lead to really negative unintended consequences (like what they did in WoL).

It's even worse if you played team games. The map pool basically didn't change for that entire expansion.

Blizzards handing of the game; in terms of how they've handled balance, map pools, user created content and support for the professional scene can all be quite easily deemed a failure.

certainly you can understand how someone could contribute so much time and effort to a game but then be frustrated with how the developers handled the game as time went on?

just because he played the game a lot doesn't mean he has to remain optimistic about its prospects and he can certainly consider it a failure compared to what could have been.

This is how i feel. I've probably watched as much SC2 as anyone on the planet since it was released. I still feel incredibly disappointed by what blizzard has done to the game and how they have managed to fuck up its potential.

They fucked up the custom game service hardcore. I didn't really try it out, but people were bitching about it all the time.

Yep. They fucked up the whole system and did a terrible job of actually getting across what sort of games are available there.

Blizzard focused far too much on 1v1 ladder and completely neglected custom games, not sure how that happened with all of the customs that War3 had.

Forget War3, BW itself survived almost entirely on custom games and map types. It just shows blizzards complete lack of understanding for what made the game itself popular.

They don't understand that just because people want to only watch 1v1 doesn't mean that's all they want to play.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

FGC wants to keep their base small and "underground", trying to get more professionalism and money involved is seen as a negative in the scene.

Uh...

It's more that a lot of powers that be don't want to give up something modest but sustainable for something big but temporary. You'd think this would be a prescient point in a discussion about a former big draw of MLG being overtaken by the latest hot new thing and how publisher missteps have possibly contributed to that, but GAF gonna GAF.

 

[Haunted]

Blizzard All-Stars is going to return Blizzard to their former glory. Just trust me on this, GUT FEELING. Seriously, BALLs is going to surprise.

BAllS isn't going to do shit.

Too late to the moba party. Dota 2 and lol have divided that market amongst themselves.

 

[Lost Fragment]

I wish. I mean, I know there are people who like fighting games who want that to happen (me included), but there's significant pushback from within the community to any sort of expansion or growth past this community grassroots effort. Just mention "esports" in the weekly FGC threads - they consider it a joke/bad word.

when keeping it real goes wrong

The FGC doesn't hate esports the thing. They hate esports the word.

Well, they also hate MLG.

 

[imBask]

Uh...

It's more that a lot of powers that be don't want to give up something modest but sustainable for something big but temporary. You'd think this would be a prescient point in a discussion about a former big draw of MLG being overtaken by the latest hot new thing and how publisher missteps have possibly contributed to that, but GAF gonna GAF.

all we ever need is spooky and salt.

 

[PhoenixDark]

First off all that I'm not a big star craft player.
I love the campaigns in the SC games and I loved the 2 campaigns in SC2.

But I would invite you guys to just download dota2 even if you have no interest in actually playing it and just tune in to a tournament (The International that's going on at this very moment is a great way to jump in).

Dota-tv: the in-game client that lets you watch the actual match while it's going on (with a delay to prevent cheating) is just light years ahead of what Blizzard is offering;
- Select between different casters in game. Casters can draw on the map to point out some interesting plays/facts.
- Select camera control: Player perspective (yes this works flawlessly), Commentator controlled camera, Free look (you control it), Directed camera (the game follows the action)
- Chat enabled in either the dota-tv chat channel or any of the chat channels you joined (like for example the Neogaf chat channel where we all discuss the progress of the game)
- See live stats: Kills/deaths/assists, gold/xp graphs, items being bought by players, facts being shown by the commentators, player networth (who's the "fattest" player in the game at the moment) etc.
And did I mention it's smooth as hell?

Blizzard just missed out IMO...

Yup. Valve and Riot took Blizz's lunch money, and I don't play/watch mobas. They botched the Korean launch of the game, and while the western/EU launch was quite successful they didn't do enough to support the community. Pumping money into the game isn't the point. It took years (and an expansion) for them to address stuff like resuming games after a DC, allowing multiple people to watch replays together, clan support, etc.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Blizzard All-Stars is going to return Blizzard to their former glory. Just trust me on this, GUT FEELING. Seriously, BALLs is going to surprise.

They are years late to the party and pretty much everything they are involved with at the moment they are bungling. Blizzard are too late and aren't capable of making a splash anyway.

Blizzard had a chance to own the genre (it spawned from their own game for fucks sake) but they completely missed that chance.

Bad maps.

I don't think a lot of people understand just how much this means for a game like SC2.

Yup. Valve and Riot took Blizz's lunch money, and I don't play/watch mobas. They botched the Korean launch of the game, and while the western/EU launch was quite successful they didn't do enough to support the community. Pumping money into the game isn't the point. It took years (and an expansion) for them to address stuff like resuming games after a DC, allowing multiple people to watch replays together, clan support, etc.

It's not like they really pumped money into the scene anyway. If anything their greed was just one more thing holding the game back.

 

[antitrop]

I don't think a lot of people understand just how much this means for a game like SC2.

Well, it certainly isn't really fair to SC2 when every game of DOTA 2 and LoL run on the same fucking map.

The rotating map pool is one of the things that kept SC2 interesting, but also one of the biggest problems. Good maps existed, but it's Blizzard's fault for not promoting them. They thought they could do it better.

Why?

 

[Dysun]

That's a shame, SC is the last remaining game of Blizzard's I care about and actually watch esport matches

 

[antitrop]

Legacy of the Void is going to have absolutely no hype... I think it might be kind of a ghost-launch.

That seems like a scary proposition.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Well, it certainly isn't really fair to SC2 when every game of DOTA 2 and LoL run on the same fucking map.

But they have a huge variety of different characters and play styles, changing the map really won't do much. SC2 on the otherhand relies on different map to encourage different play styles and to keep the scene interesting and varied.

The rotating map pool is one of the things that kept SC2 interesting, but also one of the biggest problems. Good maps existed, but it's Blizzard's fault for not promoting them. They thought they could do it better.

Why?

No idea. I'm not sure why they wanted this anyway, what benefit did they get by creating all of the maps? It didn't even make them any money.

The rotating map pool is one of the things that SHOULD have kept the game interesting but didn't. They didn't rotate through the maps often enough and there was nowhere near enough variety. Since Kespa came into the scene they have helped encouraged new maps somewhat but it's still a huge problem.

Compared to the BW map pool SC2's is stale as fuck.

Legacy of the Void is going to have absolutely no hype... I think it might be kind of a ghost-launch.

That seems like a scary proposition.

That's a few years away so who knows what the scene will look like at that point. I'm more interested in what happens between now and then.

 

[AmFreak]

Blizzard focused far too much on 1v1 ladder and completely neglected custom games, not sure how that happened with all of the customs that War3 had. Unless you wanted to Ladder there was no real point in running the game, something like Dota with DotaTV is a much more social game.

Have to agree. They basicly admit that they don't give a fuck about team games. There were huge communities around maps like bgh or fme in Broodwar, so big that there were even entire team leagues created around these maps. They all killed this with their dumb custom map system. And their team maps are just terrible. "Oh it's a 3v3 map, let's make the ramp to ur main 3 times as wide then. Or make it 2 ramps, just make sure no one can defend a rush". Or the bringing back of old, long forgotten, team maps, cause they just don't care.

 

[zoukka]

Bad maps.

It literally felt like the minimum time for something interactive to happen was close to 10 minutes or something... and the games ended mostly because scouting information was false/true, not because of some exciting micro moments and strategic army position.

I remember one match where a Brood War pro entered SC2 and tried to micro his units against a colossiball. The casters felt so bad for him.

 

[Zen]

Yep SC2 is a dying "esport". MOBAs (ie. LoL) dominating viewership, more sponsorships, probably cheaper to run accomodating way less overall players at say the Spring Championship. Then Blizzard mishandling WCS and not supporting events enough

Edit: Wow, beaten and even used the same word to describe Blizzard and WCS.

It's weird though because viewership hasn't dropped and remains like the number 1 game outside of LoL. It would have to be Blizzard fucking everything up with WCS if MLG did drop it. Ever since WCS kicked it... I dunno, it feels like it has made MLG feel less important. MLG SCII use to feel like its own big event(s), but now WCS just kind of gobbles it up into this pile of stuff.

 

[DurielBlack]

Shooters are terrible to watch in an E-sport. Too much going on, whoever controls the viewing monitors is usually in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everything moves too quickly, and too many players to bounce around between. It's like watching a Michael Bay film.

I found most of the MOBA games to be a similar experience to watch, although not quite as bad. Too bad the most popular MOBA ((LoL)) is just an awful game (IMO). The only MOBA I have really liked so far has been Smite with its superior controls.

SC2 was amazing, especially with the good casters. I saw it at Columbus a couple years ago. It would be the only reason I would attend an MLG again. I remember when all the other events had ended and it was just SC2 and the entire place was STILL packed with every chair taken and SC2 on every screen.

Leave it to ActiBliztard to fuck it up.

 

[Tashi]

Sad times indeed. I still remember going to MLG Orlando 2011 and being blown away by the SC2 scene there. Watching the crowd go ape shit for Idra vs Boxer. That convinced me to get into StarCraft 2.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Have to agree. They basicly admit that they don't give a fuck about team games. There were huge communities around maps like bgh or fme in Broodwar, so big that there were even entire team leagues created around these maps. They all killed this with their dumb custom map system. And their team maps are just terrible. "Oh it's a 3v3 map, let's make the ramp to ur main 3 times as wide then. Or make it 2 ramps, just make sure no one can defend a rush". Or the bringing back of old, long forgotten, team maps, cause they just don't care.

Or have spots behind the mineral line that can be wall off with 1 or 2 pylons making stopping cannon rushes all but impossible. They made team maps completely imbalanced and just garbage in general. They also refused to even change the map pool. Thanks to the crappy custom game system it was far too annoying to make your own games as well.

 

[mclem]

No, it was a way of showing that I have actually played, participated and dedicated a lot of time to this franchise. I was being told something else.

Yes, and it proves that excellently. However, in proving that, it does suggest that you might be overstating the 'failure of a game' assertion. If it was that bad, why play it so much?

Edit: Mmm, seen the further explanation. Not quite convinced, but I'll let it pass for now.

 

[AdventureRacing]

It's weird though because viewership hasn't dropped and remains like the number 1 game outside of LoL. It would have to be Blizzard fucking everything up with WCS if MLG did drop it. Ever since WCS kicked it... I dunno, it feels like it has made MLG feel less important. MLG SCII use to feel like its own big event(s), but now WCS just kind of gobbles it up into this pile of stuff.

That's basically the effect that WCS is having on the whole scene. It basically has saturated the market and is strangling everyone else out.

Yes, and it proves that excellently. However, in proving that, it does suggest that you might be overstating the 'failure of a game' assertion. If it was that bad, why play it so much?

Did this really have to go on for so long? It has been explained what he meant and it was pretty obvious he was just being a little over the top due to his investment in the game. Not sure why there is the need to still be jumping on him this far into the thread.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

BAllS isn't going to do shit.

Too late to the moba party. Dota 2 and lol have divided that market amongst themselves.

Wrong, wrong, wrong (I hope). I remember reading this article about the game and it was doing all these different things, turning standard moba mechanics upside down. Sounded really casual but I was still surprised at how cool it was. Good feeling about this one.

 

[Ikuu]

I found most of the MOBA games to be a similar experience to watch, although not quite as bad. Too bad the most popular MOBA ((LoL)) is just an awful game (IMO). The only MOBA I have really liked so far has been Smite with its superior controls.

Kind of funny to mention HiRez when talking about bad companies/decisions.

 

[antitrop]

Sad times indeed. I still remember going to MLG Orlando 2011 and being blown away by the SC2 scene there. Watching the crowd go ape shit for Idra vs Boxer. That convinced me to get into StarCraft 2.

Never forget MMA vs IdrA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yOw-hYMbDY

 

[ElyrionX]

SC2 is dead! Post commemoration GIFs.

Is it possible to get a youtube link of this match?

 

[Pandaman]

this thread made me go back and read some of the early sc2 threads. everyone was so happy back then. -.-

apparently i once beat phoenixdark in a zvz after starting 45 seconds late.
lel.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Wrong, wrong, wrong (I hope). I remember reading this article about the game and it was doing all these different things, turning standard moba mechanics upside down. Sounded really casual but I was still surprised at how cool it was. Good feeling about this one.

Even if this was true and blizzard somehow managed to make a game that completely changed the MOBA genre (i really doubt this is even remotely plausible) i still don't think it would have any impact. DOTA 2 and LoL are simply too entrenched at this point. It would take a miracle for blizzard to have any sort of impact on the scene.