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[rpmurphy]

Never had much problem with anime targeted towards girls. But the growth of gratuitous fanservice and these shows turning their target towards the shallow desires of grown men are why modern anime has been less and less appealing to me. At least there's still manga though I suppose...

 

[SuperPac]

Definitely agree. Moe/Loli has turned me off of anime as well.

I worked at an anime company a few years ago and was on a committee that screened new shows to determine what we should/shouldn't license. Toward the end of my run at that job 95% of it was moe/loli crap. Yet some of it still got licensed (and some of the stuff we watched back then and said "no way" to is being released now by that company as it clings to life).

 

[thetrin]

One time at college I saw this gangsta-looking black guy just laughing his ass off watching Lucky Star on his computer. It was one of the weirdest experiences of my life.

Imo, Azumanga Daioh and Lucky Star are two of the funniest animes in existence. Lucky Star, specifically, does a great job of parodying not just Japanese conventions, but Western ones at all (such as the 24 parody in one episode).

I find moe and loli largely unappealing, but god damn is Lucky Star hilarious.

They need to make more anime with international audiences in mind, or at least non-otaku in mind. Stuff like Cowboy Bebop is universal, anyone can like it without feeling embarrassed.. Same can't be said for moe.

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just insinuated that all Japanese anime watchers are otaku. (HINT: This is not always the case)

Sure, loli and moe stuff tends to appeal to otaku primarily, anime like the Cobra remake, or Gundam tend to appeal to a gigantic Japanese audience (this not just statistical, but anecdotal)

I'm not sure why you said international, because I don't think that's the issue. It just needs broader audience appeal, period. Cobra, Hokuto no Ken and Doraemon all have that.

 

[X26]

Once you get into it initially, there's a ton of great older stuff to watch, than when you get through all the must watch shows and see it's current state...you just stop. Think I've only seen gurren and ippo in the last ~2yrs

 

[thetrin]

Once you get into it initially, there's a ton of great older stuff to watch, than when you get through all the must watch shows and see it's current state...you just stop. Think I've only seen gurren and ippo in the last ~2yrs

You didn't see Darker Than Black?

 

[Epic Tier 3 Engineer]

Anime can be pretty disgusting.

It's not so much that I fear stereotyping, it's just that, more often than not, the stereotyping is completely true. Just saying loli makes me feel like a pedophile.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

You don't like every tv series, movie, or cartoon do you?

Why hold anime on a pedastool? For every shitty anime there will still be good.

I don't know much, but, I'm willing to bet when the anime boom happened that there was shit airing on tv right then. Right as we were getting introduced to the best of the best.

 

[lunarworks]

From one of the OP's linked articles:

One of Japan's most prominent woman manga artists has lashed out at the country's burgeoning otaku culture, saying that those now proudly boasting of being geeks are little more than pedophiles, perverts and losers

Untrue, in the fact that otaku have always been weirdos and somewhat perverted, but very true in the fact that this perversion seems to be THE defining characteristic of the modern otaku. (In Japan, anyway.)

I'm personally sickened by modern fandom, to the point where I've pretty much sworn off publicly admitting I was once a big fan of anime.

 

[Calcaneus]

I'm not sure if you meant to, but you just insinuated that all Japanese anime watchers are otaku. (HINT: This is not always the case)

Sure, loli and moe stuff tends to appeal to otaku primarily, anime like the Cobra remake, or Gundam tend to appeal to a gigantic Japanese audience (this not just statistical, but anecdotal)

I'm not sure why you said international, because I don't think that's the issue. It just needs broader audience appeal, period. Cobra, Hokuto no Ken and Doraemon all have that.

Nah, I didn't mean to insinuate that. I guess I should have just said non-otaku audiences in general.

 

[lunarworks]

I'm not sure why you said international, because I don't think that's the issue. It just needs broader audience appeal, period. Cobra, Hokuto no Ken and Doraemon all have that.

Actually, international appeal should be considered in many instances. Cultural exports can really add to an economy. Hollywood sure got that nailed, as many movies make more money outside of America than inside.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

You don't like every tv series, movie, or cartoon do you?

Why hold anime on a pedastool? For every shitty anime there will still be good.

Because shitty tv series, movies, and cartoons aren't vaguely pedophilic.


And I was being generous with the use of "vaguely"

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

I'm personally sickened by modern fandom, to the point where I've pretty much sworn off publicly admitting I was once a big fan of anime.

I can definitely understand that.

Shoot, the first reply in this thread called me a weirdo for even once liking anime.

I don't blame him, either. In modern times, it's difficult to think of anime as anything but strange, fetishy nonsense. Even if it isn't always true.

 

[Ceres]

I've seen the first handful of episodes of Lucky Star. It's the only thing I've watched in the last 5 years that was entertaining to me. I really need to finish watching that series.

 

[duckroll]

You didn't see Darker Than Black?

This is ironic, because Darker than Black 2 is a poster child for everything that this topic represents as a problem in the industry.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

What irritates me more is how an annoying personality trait would be glorified and considered "moe." When a girl is bitchy, that is not "moe," she is just being a bitch. On top of that, we have series that is all about moeblobs.

As for lolicons, what can I say? It is okay to like a certain character because of the role they have on the show or how they are developed, but to like them because they are an undeveloped little girl is just disgusting. It is really annoying seeing pedophillic tendencies seep into my anime. Stop making older characters look like they are nine years old and stop sexualizing little kids.

 

[Trevelyon]

Urgh! Horrible unwatchable shit, just terrible. Total cancer of the industry, sadly this pandering shit is the only thing propping it up.

 

[Calcaneus]

We should pick the worst moe show, and have a group watch thread.

 

[Epic Tier 3 Engineer]

Because shitty tv series, movies, and cartoons aren't vaguely pedophilic.


And I was being generous with the use of "vaguely"

When even the venerable Dragon Ball can't escape it, you know it's pervasive within the medium.

 

[Kite]

lol back in the day I had to explain to my friends that not all anime had tentacles and big breasted 14 year olds, and now I have to explain that not all are oversexed flat-chested 8 year olds. Nothing much has changed, 99% of anime has always been crap. But hey, if all the Johnny-come-latelies want to jump off the bandwagon go right ahead. Only 2 good shows in the past 2 years.. really? lol you guys are missing out on so many goos shows that are known and posted about on neogaf and other boards~

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

What irritates me more is how an annoying personality trait would be glorified and considered "moe." When a girl is bitchy, that is not "moe," she is just being a bitch. On top of that, we have series that is all about moeblobs.

As for lolicons, what can I say? It is okay to like a certain character because of the role they have on the show or how they are developed, but to like them because they are an undeveloped little girl is just disgusting. It is really annoying seeing pedophillic tendencies seep into my anime. Stop making older characters look like they are nine years old and stop sexualizing little kids.

This is funny, because I recently purchased a new anime figure of Lum from Urusei Yatsura. Now, I don't buy a lot of anime figures, but I couldn't resist on this one. However, she was the ONLY figure that I saw on the site that didn't look like a sexualized child. She was also the only figure from an anime older than 10 years old... I'm sure that isn't a coincidence.

 

[Ceres]

And actually, I lied.

Every now and then a great animated film comes out of Japan.
Paprika & Ponyo are the two most recent ones I can think of.

 

[The Frankman]

We should pick the worst moe show, and have a group watch thread.

 

[lunarworks]

I can definitely understand that.

Shoot, the first reply in this thread called me a weirdo for even once liking anime.

I don't blame him, either. In modern times, it's difficult to think of anime as anything but strange, fetishy nonsense. Even if it isn't always true.

Well, even back in "the day", anime fandom was an ostracized, fringe group. It was only in a short period at the beginning of this decade that it become "cool", and then that ended just like I predicted it would. The whole loli moe thing came into public awareness just as its western popularity was waning, so it faced an unfortunate double-backlash.

 

[otake]

Why can't they just finish Fruits Basket!?

 

[AtomskEater]

Just taking a look at the Winter 2009 lineup you can see that most of it is moe anime or stuff with lolis. Sure, some of them are good shows, but it is getting harder to find good original stuff that isn't "daily adventures of a group of middle school girls version 5."

I would, however, totally jump at the chance to watch "daily adventures of a group of middle school boys," but no one ever makes that.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Just started watching Bleach (w/subtitles) from the beginning on Hulu. So I can skip the filler and not have to wait weeks between episodes. Anime is much easier to digest this way.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

And actually, I lied.

Every now and then a great animated film comes out of Japan.
Paprika & Ponyo are the two most recent ones I can think of.

These films were both utterly fantastic.

 

[The Frankman]

I would, however, totally jump at the chance to watch "daily adventures of a group of middle school boys," but no one ever makes that.

How about daily adventures of a group of middle school boys playing baseball?

 

[AtomskEater]

How about daily adventures of a group of middle school boys playing baseball?

Name? That reminds me that I actually need to finish watching Big Windup, so I guess sports anime is the way to go.

Edit: Ooooh, that's what you were talking about. :lol

 

[lunarworks]

As for lolicons, what can I say? It is okay to like a certain character because of the role they have on the show or how they are developed, but to like them because they are an undeveloped little girl is just disgusting. It is really annoying seeing pedophillic tendencies seep into my anime. Stop making older characters look like they are nine years old and stop sexualizing little kids.

Games suffer from that more and more, too. Some Namco RPG was an Xbox 360 exclusive in Japan for a period, and when it was finally released on PS3 a year later they added some 8 year old looking girl to the mix and all the otaku went nuts and bought it all over again just for that.

It's gotten way out of hand. The whole entertainment industry is the enabler to the otaku addict, because they know they can leverage that to squeeze all sorts of money out of the otaku. They're making it worse and worse, and Japanese society is gonna pay for it in the long run. Short term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.

 

[Xater]

Yes it's way to much loli/moe stuff but ther eis still some stuff that is not. Just watch that and hope that the trend ends some day.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

It's gotten way out of hand. The whole entertainment industry is the enabler to the otaku addict, because they know they can leverage that to squeeze all sorts of money out of the otaku. They're making it worse and worse, and Japanese society is gonna pay for it in the long run. Short term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.

This is so true. I think a lot of them realize this, but they're so knee-deep in it already that turning back is going to be difficult.

 

[Saiyar]

This is ironic, because Darker than Black 2 is a poster child for everything that this topic represents as a problem in the industry.

That is something that has been anoying me lately, when they try to add moe stuff to a show that really should not have it. I do not mind it in stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Lucky Star but it really has no place in shows like DtB2 and Valkyria Chronilces (I know the game had some but compared to the anime...).

 

[Hcoregamer00]

This is funny, because I recently purchased a new anime figure of Lum from Urusei Yatsura. Now, I don't buy a lot of anime figures, but I couldn't resist on this one. However, she was the ONLY figure that I saw on the site that didn't look like a sexualized child. She was also the only figure from an anime older than 10 years old... I'm sure that isn't a coincidence.

That is a little bit of an exaggeration because there are many series that don't sexualize young characters. With that said, there have been a huge increase in series that do it. The increase is an alarming trend because there have always been Loli's in anime (For example: Skuld in Oh My Goddess and Sasami from Tenchi Muyo), the problem is that instead of being a background character who supports the main cast, this character would be front and center, being sexualized through indecent clothing and inappropriate behavior.

Games suffer from that more and more, too. Some Namco RPG was an Xbox 360 exclusive in Japan for a period, and when it was finally released on PS3 a year later they added some 8 year old looking girl to the mix and all the otaku went nuts and bought it all over again just for that.

It's gotten way out of hand. The whole entertainment industry is the enabler to the otaku addict, because they know they can leverage that to squeeze all sorts of money out of the otaku. They're making it worse and worse, and Japanese society is gonna pay for it in the long run. Short term gains at the expense of long-term sustainability.

Game have always suffered from it (kind of like anime), the problem is that the prevalence of it nowadays just brought it to the forefront.

 

[rpmurphy]

When even the venerable Dragon Ball can't escape it, you know it's pervasive within the medium.

Doraemon has ecchi themes as well. Both main characters are peeping toms. But it's for comedic effect, where the target for the joke is the perversion and the perverts rather than for some fanservice.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

That is a little bit of an exaggeration because there are many series that don't sexualize young characters. With that said, there have been a huge increase in series that do it. The increase is an alarming trend because there have always been Loli's in anime (For example: Skuld in Oh My Goddess and Sasami from Tenchi Muyo), the problem is that instead of being a background character who supports the main cast, this character would be front and center, being sexualized through indecent clothing and inappropriate behavior.

Yeah. I remember in the 90's, the character Sasami would get all this attention in merchandise and among fans. I questioned why they pay attention to this little kid when there's all these supposedly beautiful women to gawk at. I know the answer now, but at the time it was just weird to me.

 

[tokkun]

Definitely agree. Moe/Loli has turned me off of anime as well.

I worked at an anime company a few years ago and was on a committee that screened new shows to determine what we should/shouldn't license. Toward the end of my run at that job 95% of it was moe/loli crap. Yet some of it still got licensed (and some of the stuff we watched back then and said "no way" to is being released now by that company as it clings to life).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOPBRO1AvH8

 

[Suairyu]

There are two big reasons. One of them is the move away from using cels to digital(it just never looked as appealing to me).

I agree with this reason so much. I miss the beautiful, painted, slightly de-saturated aesthetic of pre-2000 cel anime. The tendency to use high levels of colour contrast to make everything pop and appear 'shiny' these days makes most art really unappealing to me.

 

[The Frankman]

Dragonball has loli stuff? Aside from Roshi having a hard on for Bulma in the original DB, not really?

I'm trying to remember this... I remember Bulma flashing (uber edited in the US back then) but no loli stuff. Who was a loli in DB/DBZ? Not many young female characters unless you mean Pan in GT.

 

[jmdajr]

I was once an anime fan. To be sure, there are still occasional new things produced even to this day that I enjoy. But for the most part, I feel that I've moved on.

There are two big reasons. One of them is the move away from using cels to digital(it just never looked as appealing to me). But that isn't what this is about.

No, the other reason is the little girl stuff. Or, as the fans like to refer to it - moé. In recent years, the number of anime produced catering to the loli fetish has risen astronomically. Oh, sure. There's been loli and moé-related themes in anime for a very long time. As early as 1984, in fact. But you have to be in denial not to admit that it isn't until recently that it's blown-up to the degree that it has.


Here's a fairly recent article you can read to get a bit of insight on the subject - http://www.comixology.com/articles/265/Moe-The-Cult-of-the-Child

And here's one from a couple years ago that I found pretty interesting: http://www.animeacademy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22493

What's your take on the whole moé thing? Does it bother you? Has it affected your enjoyment of anime or how you perceive people that do?

This is a subject that has bothered me for some time. This is a great place to discuss this, because it's such a large melting pot of biased and unbiased opinions. So the responses should be interesting.

keep preaching! I have pretty much stopped anime watching all together.
I occasionally watch what is in my collection...and that's it.

 

[The Frankman]

Strike Witches vid

To this very day I feel the US should've imposed economic sanctions on Japan for this. BARACK OBAMA WOULDN'T HAVE LET THIS HAPPEN!!

EDIT: wow Himuro even I heard of that.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Dragonball has loli stuff? Aside from Roshi having a hard on for Bulma in the original DB, not really?

Yeah, news to me.

Also, I think this needs to be said, Moe and Lolicon are not the same. We have to keep that distinction when talking about it. They used to have a common origin, but the modern vernacular puts a pretty heavy distinction between the two.

Moe: A strong interest in a particular character trait. For example: Yui in K-ON, she is a dumb girl that tries hard, some people consider her dumb personality "moe"

Lolicon: A strong interest in underage characters. Example: 4chan.

Yeah. I remember in the 90's, the character Sasami would get all this attention in merchandise and among fans. I questioned why they pay attention to this little kid when there's all these supposedly beautiful women to gawk at. I know the answer now, but at the time it was just weird to me.

Exactly, now you know.

The problem is not that it is a new trend, the problem is that the younger characters are getting even more sexualized and that there are more series with them. The art you see on the two characters I mentioned before (Sasami and Skuld) were not so heavily sexualized. When you look at anime characters today in those age ranges, there are lots of official character art that sexualizes them in various poses, outfits, etc.

 

[Cindres]

It's why i never watched Anime, all the cutesy Moe bullshit, hich to be quite honest i find digsusting and almost borderline illegal if some guy that writes a slightly pedophillic book can be arrested.
But i never liked it when it was grown women either. I find all the figures of these anime figures wearing almost nothing and sporting FF boobs kinda creepy.

 

[AtomskEater]

That is something that has been anoying me lately, when they try to add moe stuff to a show that really should not have it. I do not mind it in stuff like Azumanga Daioh and Lucky Star but it really has no place in shows like DtB2 and Valkyria Chronilces (I know the game had some but compared to the anime...).

Yeah, it's really apparent that some shows would stand fine on their own and have interesting premises but underage girls are being shoved in just to have a wider appeal.

And stuff like Chu Bra! I'm just not sure about. It's like ...okay, middle school girl educates her friends on the importance of proper underwear, but just who is the target audience really? Or how Kodomo no Jikan apparently had a chapter dedicated to how to properly insert a tampon. It gets even weirder when stuff like this is inserted into the fray.

I agree with this reason so much. I miss the beautiful, painted, slightly de-saturated aesthetic of pre-2000 cel anime. The tendency to use high levels of colour contrast to make everything pop and appear 'shiny' these days makes most art really unappealing to me.

Agreed. A lot of recent shows look kind of same-ish to me.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Moe: A strong interest in a particular character trait. For example: Yui in K-ON, she is a dumb girl that tries hard, some people consider her dumb personality "moe"

Lolicon: A strong interest in underage characters. Example: 4chan.

Yeah, the two terms have different meanings, though both of them generally pertain to underage characters(though not always).

From the article: "The word moe actually comes from a kanji meaning "to sprout." "My vegetable love should grow," to misuse a quote from Andrew Marvell—a slow budding affection, like a tender young plant.

Or like an underage girl, unfortunately."

 

[CygnusXS]

for me what's killed anime is the decreased quality of animation and writing. I find the loli thing more funny than anything else. It's been around a lot longer than manga/anime though. If you read Genji Monogatari the main story arch is esentially about an adult who falls in love with a 10 year old, kidnaps her, trains her to be the "perfect woman", and then when she turns 15, rapes her and brings her into his harem.

Goddamnit Japan.

 

[The Frankman]

Arale in Dr. Slump is a little girl android but she's in no way sexualized and helps make the entire thing one big gag manga.

There's no loli/moe in DB at all. There's fanservice, but it's always comedic.

Yeah I remember her in DB beating the crap out of a Red Ribbon dude (the gay guy). I found her annoying.

I remember when I was a co-editor on the fledgling animation section on my old site. I had to research things I'd otherwise never be interested in and even then (5 years ago) I was hearing about a lot a loli stuff. Compare then to now... yeesh. Of course this won't stop the animetards on the [as]/Gaia boards.

And stuff like Chu Bra! I'm just not sure about. It's like ...okay, middle school girl educates her friends on the importance of proper underwear, but just who is the target audience really? Or how Kodomo no Jikan apparently had a chapter dedicated to how to properly insert a tampon. It gets even weirder when stuff like this is inserted into the fray.

 

[MCD]

This is ironic, because Darker than Black 2 is a poster child for everything that this topic represents as a problem in the industry.

Hei beats up loli and living the dream.

no problem here.

 

[Dabookerman]

Azumanga, is an anime featuring school girls. But it's their situation at school that is the main focus. Not how cute they are (except for chiyo, but that is more to do with irony).

Most shows these days concentrate on cute situations and some other shit that I don't know because I don't watch them.

Uh. I want more voluptuous women in my anime. I don't like little girls, since 99% of the time they're never relevant.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Yeah, the two terms have different meanings, though both of them generally pertain to underage characters(though not always).

From the article: "The word moe actually comes from a kanji meaning "to sprout." "My vegetable love should grow," to misuse a quote from Andrew Marvell—a slow budding affection, like a tender young plant.

Or like an underage girl, unfortunately."

They generally do, but people use moe as a more general term.

Just like people called the character in my avatar "moe" when her DLC was released >_>. She was anything but flat-chested and underaged.