theprodigy
Member
That's basically unavoidable unless you use a rating system, but then people will just give things 0/10 (or 5 or whatever) to drag them down anyway.
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NeoGAF's Essential RPGs - 2015 edition
- Thread starter kswiston
- Start date
That's basically unavoidable unless you use a rating system, but then people will just give things 0/10 (or 5 or whatever) to drag them down anyway.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
It's a good list for what it is.
But I think Ultima at least should have been included, if only for its historical significance.
But I think Ultima at least should have been included, if only for its historical significance.
The list would be a lot more useful if less popular games managed to make it. The RPG Codex list was great because it's getting people to play games that barely anyone knew about like NEO Scavenger and Heroine's Quest.
If you're going to include any franchise for historical significance, it should go to Wizardry. Both WRPGs and JRPGs are strongly influenced by it.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
Indeed. And then you will want to include the first Might & Magic games, and the Gold box RPG, and then there will be no end to those silly little list wars.
I thought about Ultima (4 in particular) because, as far as I know, the way it allows the player to 'roleplay' its character through its morality system is something that we don't see too often, even nowaday.
I thought about Ultima (4 in particular) because, as far as I know, the way it allows the player to 'roleplay' its character through its morality system is something that we don't see too often, even nowaday.
That's really all there is to it. Of course these are the games that are going to be on the majority of lists. It's simply what most people around here have played.
Though it doesn't make heartbreaking statements any less heartbreaking. Ouch.
That's their GOTY list though. the Codex all time list had 3 Fallout games, and 6 Black Isle/Obsidian/Troika games in the top 10. Those games are all good, but it's the same issue we have here with over-representation at the top of the list, just a focus on a different era/subgenre (representing that community's interest).
#31-35 will add 4 more CRPGs to the list, including a few obvious omissions. They may be coming in lower than they deserve, but they will still be represented.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
VC1 and GS2, two games that recently had nigh-miraculous digital rereleases to great fanfare go down.
Maybe the age of infatutation with these is at an end. *shrug*
Neat. I'll send you some linkage for what I know for some of these lower seeds of gameplay and music when I get some time tonight.
Maybe the age of infatutation with these is at an end. *shrug*
Neat. I'll send you some linkage for what I know for some of these lower seeds of gameplay and music when I get some time tonight.
Both of these rereleases, Suikoden in particular, came out at the end of the year. Nobody's had time to play them yet!
I'm pointing this out from a personal perspective: I bought S2 as soon as it came out, but I've been playing brand new 2014 releases since then, in preparation for the GOTY thread. I plan on playing Suikodens 1 and 2 soon after, and if it lives up to the hype it may be on my Essentials list next time around. I'm sure there are others in the same boat.
texhnolyze
Banned
NeoGAF is in fact a console-centric forum, so it's normal if the most popular RPG genre is JRPG and some mainstream multi-platform RPGs.
Not a bad top 10, apart from Mass Effect sticking out like a sore thumb. Game had a lot of promise, fantastic soundtrack, an interesting setting and backstory, but everything gameplay-wise was clunky - the battle system felt 'off', performance issues abound, extremely repetitive side missions. Of course, they threw the baby out with the bathwater with 2 and although it played MUCH better, it did that by turning into a middling cover-shooter with dialogue options. And one of the worst minigames (mining for minerals) ever.
I'm upset that no Phantasy Star games made the top 30. People need to get on that... Ditto for no Dragon Quest, Ys, Ultima, or even Deus Ex (which I thought was considered universally acclaimed from PC gamers)
Other random thoughts:
-Gotta play past at least the first sections of Demon/Dark Souls
-Gotta play Fallout: New Vegas and Baldur's Gate 2. I'm not huge into western RPGs but I did manage to beat Fallout 3 and Planescape: Torment
-#16, with Thousand Year Door, is the first position with a game I don't own already
-Don't own Vampire or Divinity: Original Sin either. Not sure if either are my type of games...
-The main games from this list I want to play are Fire Emblem: Awakening (shocked how well it did), one/any Pokemon, and give Nocturne another go now that I actually understand how to play SMT games
I'm upset that no Phantasy Star games made the top 30. People need to get on that... Ditto for no Dragon Quest, Ys, Ultima, or even Deus Ex (which I thought was considered universally acclaimed from PC gamers)
Other random thoughts:
-Gotta play past at least the first sections of Demon/Dark Souls
-Gotta play Fallout: New Vegas and Baldur's Gate 2. I'm not huge into western RPGs but I did manage to beat Fallout 3 and Planescape: Torment
-#16, with Thousand Year Door, is the first position with a game I don't own already
-Don't own Vampire or Divinity: Original Sin either. Not sure if either are my type of games...
-The main games from this list I want to play are Fire Emblem: Awakening (shocked how well it did), one/any Pokemon, and give Nocturne another go now that I actually understand how to play SMT games
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Do Souls, Fire Emblem and Planescape count as JRPGs or as Mass Effect? Out of the top ten, there are six more or less traditional (yet still wildly different) JRPGs, an SRPG, a Souls-game (which basically is its own subgenre), a traditional WRPG and a WRPG-shooter. I don't think that this is just one style of games at all.
RoninChaos
Member
Subbed
Still, the listed games in this thread contain no surprises. In comparison, the Codex Top 70 list has a fair number of games that I'd never heard of a year ago, and others are relatively unknown.
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
I wish someone would do this for other genres, like platformers. This thread is awesome but I don't play a ton of RPGs so it's not completely relevant to me. Although I will admit I wish handheld titles saw more representation.
It's also sad that I feel a game like Phantasy Dtar Online will continue to fade from popularity as less and less people are or have been exposed to it being online.
It's also sad that I feel a game like Phantasy Dtar Online will continue to fade from popularity as less and less people are or have been exposed to it being online.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Their All-Time Top 70 isn't that obscure. I'm not a huge computer RPG player & though I haven't played most games on their list, I only counted 7 games on the list that I had never heard of before. Likewise, someone who mostly plays computer RPGs and rarely plays on consoles or portables would probably find a few games on the Top 50 list here that they hadn't heard of.
archnemesis
Member
There was a thread like that back in 2011. There are also others, but not that many posters participated in them.
Amazing that is has actually come to people complaining over the word "essential." What happens when the said panel decides something even less to your taste?
texhnolyze
Banned
Hmm, I wonder why is that?
I thought RPG is not the most popular genre at all. I know some people who hate RPGs.
I'd like to see the result on essential action, shooters, and stealth games from GAF.
You're right, a well-argued list presented by a panel of respected and articulate individuals has no place here, and has certainly never had any merit anywhere, ever.
I was just being sardonic, but it really is comparable to something like a People's Choice Award for 'Best Actress' and the hottest one wins instead of, you know, the best actress.
archnemesis
Member
My guess is that 1) GAF had fewer users back then and 2) people were getting tired of a myriad of similar threads and stopped putting effort into their lists.
Edit: Although it would be very tiresome to write comments to each game, I would prefer a voting system where I could grade any number of RPGs with a score between 1 and 10. The top essential games would just be the aggregate score, possibly weighted in some manner.
The list is fine, imo. I don't see why there is so much friction between J and W RPG enthusiasts. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
I wish I could afford consoles to play all those jrpgs, but since more are getting ported to PC I might get to try them in the future!
I wish I could afford consoles to play all those jrpgs, but since more are getting ported to PC I might get to try them in the future!
A strangely difficult concept to grasp for some people, apparently.
Well, I tried!
There isn't any simple answer on why both VC and Suikoden II have their position went down despite recent rerelase.
We don't have any proof that people who voted for this year is the same as the previous thread (2013 I think?). It is a possibility that people who voted high for both of them are no longer here, either banned, retired, or just don't have time to cast their votes. I think the true test will be in the next thread, where people who just played the newest release of respective have enough time finished them and make impression out of their experience.
All attempts at essential lists for other genres have met with very little participation (typically one half or less of the participants that this thread gets). People couldn't even be bothered to do an essential FPS thread. I think that a lot of those who like the RPG genre are passionate about it and are more likely to have played a wide variety of the games than is the case with platformers (where half the voters just picked 5-10 Mario games plus the odd Sonic)
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I think an important point here is that platformers are really dominated by some series (Mario, Sonic, Banjo), qualitywise, so even people who are very passionate about the genre (like me, for instance) will have rather boring lists. Maybe another system for votes than "list the 10 best games in the genre" would help. You could basically fill a list of 10 fantastic games just with Mario...
That still doesn't explain the lack of interest. Someone posted a list of other attempts at essential games threads for other genres. Compare the number of posts in those threads to this thread or the previous essential RPG thread. The essential platforming thread above barely had 100 replies. As such, the #25 game in that thread had about as many recommendations as the #100 game in this thread.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Hm, yeah, that's strange. I've thought about a voting system a bit and maybe I should put up a vote for the platformers. The idea would be that you're voting for a top 10 of series and within a series can name a top 3, too. So for instance, a vote could look like this:
1. Super Mario (Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Land, New Super Mario Bros.)
2. Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, Sonic Boom, Sonic & the Black Knight)
3. Vexx
4. Yoshi (Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Universal Gravitation, Yoshi Touch & Go)
...
Of course this would be a bit more work for the voters (and me, keeping track of the sub-ratings per series), a bit more regulation (so, for instance, you'd have to specify if Yoshi's Island is a Mario or Yoshi game before, same for Wario Land), but it would definitely yield a more interesting set of votes and more interesting recommendations - provided enough people care to participate, that is.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I don't know about that since I'm pretty sure that I have seen worse in other genres or specific franchises.
I think many people are just taking the final list far too seriously, if not even personally. I haven't even looked at it, I just read the individual post that had some explanations for the games and that listed at least some games I'm interested in. For a good post that takes the 'essential' part seriously look at Durante's post.
I didn't contribute myself because I feel I haven't played enough RPGs to have a good overview of what's essential, but I always find this thread very helpful in finding new games I'm interested in. I recently started playing Baldur's Gate because of the previous installment of this thread. So I think either way it serves its purpose.
I think part of the problem is that RPG is such a wide and poorly defined genre with many games that play completely differently (even ignoring that some people consider Zelda an RPG). So people play RPGs for completely different reasons. Some play for the story, some for the characters and character interactions, some for the actual role-playing and becoming that player character, some like strategy, some want to min-max a party with complex character trees. And then some prefer turn-based, some action, some RTwP. I don't think there's another genre that lumps this many different game types and mechanics under one umbrella. And most people have (strong) preferences for one type, so any individual list of essential RPGs comes down to games that fit that preferred type and are then essential within that category. But for someone else that whole category might be non-essential because it doesn't have any of whatever that person is looking for in an RPG. So of course there'll be debate when people come in with completely different ideas of what is important in an RPG.
Sorry about the long ramblings, it's too early to be concise.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I will play it eventually, and fuck yeah Brandish is what I'm playing right now.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I definitely agree that it's one of the best SNES-era RPGs (and a personal favorite), but with only 10 slots (20 if you count honorable mentions), most people aren't going to use a lot of slots on any one generation, especially one so old. CT, FF6, Earthbound, Phantasy Star, a Shining Force, or one of the Lunars are all more likely choices.
nonadventurer
Neo Member
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I know right.
Me too!
Poor Panzer Dragoon Saga and Shining Force III have no chance in hell either despite being fully deserving, not nearly enough folks played them.Chrono Trigger, FF VI, Persona 4, Dark Souls... Agree mostly with this list.
Persona 3 doesn't deserve it, it's severely lacking on the RPG aspect, Tartarus is terrible. FE Awakening isn't even close to being the best FE. The most popular maybe.
In the end, it's maybe a bit too JRPG centric but overall pretty good.
Persona 3 doesn't deserve it, it's severely lacking on the RPG aspect, Tartarus is terrible. FE Awakening isn't even close to being the best FE. The most popular maybe.
In the end, it's maybe a bit too JRPG centric but overall pretty good.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I have a question for anyone here. What's your opinions on Thousand Arms?
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Eh, I don't know if I should take his comment at face value since he was ranting out of anger.
I would like to hear it from other people since they probably explain it better or so.
Dracandros
Banned
I agree with everyone here too, but I was pretty into the game when it came out in 2012 and had to take a break because of the combat as a whole.
Even though it got much more enjoyable, I really struggled to advance in it last year. I was never able to get solid footing and I just couldn't do it.
This in mind, Xenoblade does not reward a RPG player that doesn't have a good idea of what they want to get out of it. It might be best if people looking to play it for the first time understand that almost none of the quests are required or to have a general plan of which ones they may want to tackle after a period of time.
would a "no limit" vote work next time? I'm thinking that would put more weight on RPG veterans vs those who just play a few
example:
Someone like Durante for example ranks 100 games and places Planescape Torment as his #1, his vote for PT would be worth 100 points, meanwhile, I've only played 10 rpgs and PT is also my #1, yet since I've played only a few my PT vote is worth 10 points only.
I'm not sure it would work but I think it's nice that those who are experienced in the genre will have more influence in deciding the rankings, while those of us who play less can still contribute. Just a thought.
Or maybe you can do the ranking by console gen?
So you have the best snes rpgs by rank, best rpgs on ps2 era by rank, etc
example:
Someone like Durante for example ranks 100 games and places Planescape Torment as his #1, his vote for PT would be worth 100 points, meanwhile, I've only played 10 rpgs and PT is also my #1, yet since I've played only a few my PT vote is worth 10 points only.
I'm not sure it would work but I think it's nice that those who are experienced in the genre will have more influence in deciding the rankings, while those of us who play less can still contribute. Just a thought.
Or maybe you can do the ranking by console gen?
So you have the best snes rpgs by rank, best rpgs on ps2 era by rank, etc
hydrophilic attack
Member
Can't believe I managed to miss this thread throughout the entire voting period. Oh well, maybe I'll be able to participate next year. I participated two (I think?) years ago and it was good fun.
That would be interesting to do but I don't think TC would have as much time to look into each individual's past RPG record and determine their weight in the balance. Heck I'm just a junior member here and I probably completed just as much RPG as Durante and I'm not sure GAF would put the same weight to me as Durante.
In the end, the main list is just the summary of all of our tastes. The best part of the thread for me were the individual lists and explanations, especially those with games I've never heard of or I only knew by name.
I would be all for reading a curated and created by manner of discussion list made by people who know RPGs reeeaaally well.
I would be all for reading a curated and created by manner of discussion list made by people who know RPGs reeeaaally well.
Most of those people though have, as we all do, pretty huge biases. You can see it it any of the larger CRPG discussion threads. At the end of the day "I've played a lot of X" isn't a particularly sound endorsement of how well one understands X just how much they like it (see for example RPGCodex's All time Top 70, it wasnt a better list, was equally representative of the voters bias but is lauded by those who's opinion it matches). As you said the current list is, well, exactly what it is a summary of the tastes and biases of those who voted in it. As such it has a solid context for its recommendations and as such is easier to "judge". For any kind of curated list to be actually worth something it would require some attempt at objective analysis (and even there you're going to run into issues around defining what an RPG is and what constitues a "good" rpg, so the compilers bias will creep in anyway). In short for a curated list to be of actual use would require an unrealstic amount of work and academic rigor. I think we're better off simply admitting that all such lists are understandably subjective and whether we consider them "good" or not largely depends on how much we agree with them.
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