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[Durante]

I agree with the latter, but I even doubt the former. For reference: The Qualcomm Snapdragon QSD8250, which uses an Imageon Z430 GPU, pushes 133Mpx/s (Flipper: 648Mpx/s; Hollywood: 972Mpx/s) and a lot less polys per second than Flipper.

Well, a SGX545 has a 1Gpx/s fillrate. (admittedly calculated with an overdraw of 2.5, but that is pretty realistic). First generation Tegra does 600Mpx, and Tegra 2 is supposed to double that.

And of course, fillrate isn't everything. Particularly the SGX (but even Tegra) is far more flexible than Flipper.

 

[overthehill99]

What are these chances that this thing has glass screens?

 

[wsippel]

I believe it's tile-based like PowerVR and Dreamcast though, so that effectively increases its fillrate by about 3x in comparison to conventional setups (so it's more like 400Mpx/s).

Yep, it's TBR: http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/gdc2008_ribble_maurice_TileBasedGpus.pdf

Well, a SGX545 has a 1Gpx/s fillrate. (admittedly calculated with an overdraw of 2.5, but that is pretty realistic). First generation Tegra does 600Mpx, and Tegra 2 is supposed to double that.

And of course, fillrate isn't everything. Particularly the SGX (but even Tegra) is far more flexible than Flipper.

They are more flexible, no doubt about it. But really, don't believe the Nvidia marketing bullshit. That kind of performance might be achievable in netbooks, but when Tegra is used in handheld devices, it's clocked much, much slower.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

But when the games came out that put those 'gimmicks' to good use,
they stopped being gimmicks and started simply being another feature
that allows people to enjoy their games in new and interesting ways.

If Nintendo or anyone else isn't able to make games look interesting using the 3D
effects, then I will be willing to call it a gimmick. Not before.

There's a major difference between a touch screen and 3D. A touch screen provides an entirely new way of interacting with a game, while Nintendo has already said that you can turn 3D on and off with the 3DS, so, like you say, the only thing it provides it to make games look interesting.

That can be cool, I'm not dismissing it, but there's likely not going to be gameplay based around 3D that couldn't be done in 2D if developers don't even know whether you have the 3D on or off, or what setting you have it on now that know you can change the intensity of it.

Also, there are very few games on the DS that both rely on touch controls and couldn't be done on an iTouch.

 

[DonMigs85]

What are these chances that this thing has glass screens?

Pretty unlikely knowing Nintendo. We'll probably have to buy new Hori screen protectors.

 

[Snakeyes]

I wonder if it will be okay for insiders to post full system specs after the 3DS is unveiled. I doubt that Nintendo will reveal the full spec sheet at E3 themselves.

Didn't IGN accurately leak the "Revolution's" specs a few months before the official reveal, which were met with rage and tears by Nintendo fanboys?

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Nintendo has never put out a product that wasn't affordable. And in comparison to 3D Televisions (which is the only other mainstream alternative for 3D entertainment outside of the cinema), the 3DS' cost will be a drop in the bucket.

Avatar's earnings were absolutely boosted by the WOW effect 3D had on the general public. The 3DS will be the same. There are tons of people who will jump on board simply for the spectacle. As for the comparison to Up, Nintendo won't be releasing shallow software focused only on spectacle, either.

This is how the video game industry works. After a five or six year lifetime, you upgrade to the new system, partly for the updated graphics and new functionality, and mostly because that is where all the future software is going to be. If you want to continue to enjoy the software that Nintendo releases, you have to pick up a 3DS. This isn't going to shock people.

Most of the other functions in the iPhones and iPod Touches, that you are insisting people will purchase instead of a 3DS, they already have in other forms. They can continue to listen to new music on the old iPod they already have. There is less incentive for them to upgrade their iPod than there will be for them to upgrade their Nintendo handheld.

There is no uphill battle in convincing people to buy a new system. Nintendo doesn't need everyone who bought a DS in the past year or two to buy a 3DS on launch. There are millions and millions of individuals who bought their DS six years ago. Those users are ready to upgrade. The individuals who aren't ready, will be a couple years later.

I'm not sure what you were getting at by listing NSMB as a reason that people bought the DS, and then insisting that people wouldn't buy a 3DS for a Mario title.

It's funny how you point to their actions in the past as proof of your point but totally ignore what they've done in the past few years.

You say that everyone knows that you buy a new system every few years, but many of the people who bought a DS have never owned a video game system before, and they can also satisfy their need to game elsewhere on more attractive devices that do a plethora of other things.

You assume that the 3DS will be affordable (I would argue that $250 is affordable) because Nintendo has never launched an expensive piece of hardware before. Have you forgotten the outrage when they announced that the Wii would be $250 instead of $200? Have you forgotten that no one before them had basically re-released old hardware with added functionality before them, and no one had launched a dual screen handheld with goofy kiddy games before them? Do you not understand that markets change and that companies have to react to them? Just because Nintendo hasn't done something in the past doesn't mean they never will.

I'm not sure what to say about your thoughts on people's thoughts on iPods, maybe you've never played with one but they do a LOT more than just play music.

This isn't the place to argue about it, and I'm guessing it wouldn't be a good one anyway since I'm assuming you don't know who James Cameron is, but he is an extremely famous director and many of his movies have done extremely well. Maybe you can attribute some of Avatar's success to 3D, but saying it had a large effect is idiotic, it would have done very, very well had it been shot in 2D.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Nintendo is not going to release the next-gen equivalent of PSP within the next year.

Based on what exactly? The current consoles were expensive to make five years ago... so the 3DS will have crappy graphics. You have no reasoning behind your statement.

 

[wsippel]

Digital Foundry "confirms" that the 3DS won't use Tegra, but something completely different, most likely designed by a Japanese company:

According to our two independent, unconnected sources, the Nintendo 3DS - almost certain to be revealed at E3 - features a design totally divorced from the NVIDIA Tegra SoC (system on chip) initially thought to have been powering the DS successor. It's now thought that Nintendo has instead chosen a Japanese partner for the 3D acceleration hardware within the 3DS.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/nvidia-unconnected-with-3ds-blog-entry

 

[notworksafe]

Maybe you can attribute some of Avatar's success to 3D, but saying it had a large effect is idiotic, it would have done very, very well had it been shot in 2D.

:lol

 

[dr3upmushroom]

:lol

I hear Titanic and Terminator did purty darn well, and somehow or other they seem to have managed it without 3D.

I don't want to get too off-topic here, but what exactly does the smily mean? You think a James Cameron movie would have flopped if it weren't in 3D?

 

[DonMigs85]

Japanese partner eh? I bet it's NEC but let's see.

 

[DonMigs85]

I hear Titanic and Terminator did purty darn well, and somehow or other they seem to have managed it without 3D.

I don't want to get too off-topic here, but what exactly does the smily mean? You think a James Cameron movie would have flopped if it weren't in 3D?

Because 3D wasn't the "in" thing yet at the time, and fancy CGI effects were still in their infancy too.
Without the extra revenue from higher 3D ticket prices and reduced piracy Avatar would have probably done about as well as a typical Harry Potter film at best.

 

[Snakeyes]

So what Japanese partners could they be talking about?

 

[Cow Mengde]

So what Japanese partners could they be talking about?

Probably NEC.

 

[fernoca]

I don't even know what to say about your second paragraph. Why exactly are people upgrading to HDTV's if they can't tell the difference between a high and low resolution image?

To be fair, many people upgraded..well, "upgraded" to HDTVs because:
1. Is the cool thing (even if the first thing the ydo is connect a DVD Player or a PS3 through composite cables)
2. The whole analog-digital switch. Many preferred buying a new TV, than getting a converter box.

When people want something ,they just get it. No matter if you try to convince them otherwise. I sold ..who knows how many TVs last year, to people that only wanted to play a Wii..and watch the random rented movie here and there..just because they wanted a flat screen to put into the wall, instead of their big-fat SDTV. Were things like "resolution", "quality" ..meant nothing to them. People that you showed them Up running on Bluray..right next to the DVD version, and they couldn't tell the different "it just looks the same".

Not saying that everyone's like that, but just because the technology is there, doesn't mean that people upgrade because is what they want, they just upgrade because they think is what they want.

People weren't asking for 3D movies, but after watching Avatar..people want to see movies in 3D. Even if the effect or quality is not the same (filming a 3D movie like Avatar or the upcoming Resident Evil, compared to adding the 3D effect through post-processing like Alice in Wonderland)

Which is the point when it comes to release a product. Is not about people needing it, but creating the need for it.

 

[Durante]

Digital Foundry "confirms" that the 3DS won't use Tegra, but something completely different, most likely designed by a Japanese company:

Interesting. If true I have no idea what they're going with.

I'd say I'm looking forward to E3 but knowing Nintendo I very much doubt they'll be talking about their chipset :lol

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Because 3D wasn't the "in" thing yet at the time, and fancy CGI effects were still in their infancy too.
Without the extra revenue from higher 3D ticket prices and reduced piracy Avatar would have probably done about as well as a typical Harry Potter film at best.

Wow.

I can't believe you honestly think this. In your head you actually think, "Hmm, so this guy directed another movie that was the most successful of all time, and every franchise he has worked on is extremely well known, and his new movie is breaking records... eh, guess it's because of 3D!"

Also, are you too under the impression that UP! did well due to having 3D effects?

 

[Snakeyes]

Probably NEC.

What notable CPU/GPU have NEC made in the past?

 

[dr3upmushroom]

To be fair, many people upgraded..well, "upgraded" to HDTVs because:
1. Is the cool thing (even if the first thing the ydo is connect a DVD Player or a PS3 through composite cables)
2. The whole analog-digital switch. Many preferred buying a new TV, than getting a converter box.

When people want something ,they just get it. No matter if you try to convince them otherwise. I sold ..who knows how many TVs last year, to people that only wanted to play a Wii..and watch the random rented movie here and there..just because they wanted a flat screen to put into the wall, instead of their big-fat SDTV. Were things like "resolution", "quality" ..meant nothing to them. People that you showed them Up running on Bluray..right next to the DVD version, and they couldn't tell the different "it just looks the same".

Not saying that everyone's like that, but just because the technology is there, doesn't mean that people upgrade because is what they want, they just upgrade because they think is what they want.

Which is the point when it comes to release a product. Is not about people needing it, but creating the need for it.

I understand all that, in fact it's one of the main points in my posts in this thread; I don't see why people would want to blow money on a 3DS when there's other things at similar price points that play the games they want to play and way more.

I would assume that many of the people buying an HDTV because of the analog/ digital conversion or to play the Wii are people who don't a new TV very often and who won't buy a new one that they have 3D, just like they won't buy a 3DS when they just bought one recently and there's other more attractive devices out there now.

Just to clarify again, I'm not saying it will sell poorly by any means, just that they'll lose a lot of the "casual" market.

 

[DonMigs85]

What notable CPU/GPU have NEC made in the past?

They don't really make their own designs but they did manufacture Flipper for the GC (and Hollywood for Wii I believe) and they co-designed the PowerVR2 in Dreamcast.

 

[camineet]

What notable CPU/GPU have NEC made in the past?

They haven't really. NEC *manufactured* the GPU in GameCube and PowerVR2 for Dreamcast, but i don't know of any chips they actually designed for consoles or handhelds.

edit: beaten

 

[wsippel]

Japanese partner eh? I bet it's NEC but let's see.

I don't think NEC is still working on GPUs. I googled a bit, and the only Japanese company I found in the few minutes I spent that designs GPUs (well, it's about as much a GPU as the Graphics Synthesizer was) seems to be a company called TOPS Systems Corporation. They create really weird stuff, like 9 x 73 core 800 TFLOPS realtime raytracing systems and such, but also low power SoCs for mobile devices. Might be unconventional and insane enough for Nintendo...

 

[DonMigs85]

Wow.

I can't believe you honestly think this. In your head you actually think, "Hmm, so this guy directed another movie that was the most successful of all time, and every franchise he has worked on is extremely well known, and his new movie is breaking records... eh, guess it's because of 3D!"

Also, are you too under the impression that UP! did well due to having 3D effects?

you can't deny that the 3D buzz certainly helped generate more interest for Avatar, even if a lot of people just watched in 2D. Monsters Vs. Aliens probably wouldn't have been as successful either if it was a typical 2D release.
Pixar's movies tend to rely more on the strength of their storytelling and brand reputation. 3D's just a little extra to help boost profits.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I completely forgot about this device having apps...
This wait is getting longer it seems :^/

Apps you say? Hope it has a youtube app. Would be great if this thing could replace my ipod touch and PSP (I'm a graphics whore).

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Pixar's movies tend to rely more on the strength of their storytelling and brand reputation. 3D's just a little extra to help boost profits.

And James Cameron's movies tend to rely more on the strength of being James Cameron's movies. How can you realize that Pixar movies benefit from brand recognition but not James Cameron's?

 

[Cow Mengde]

I don't think NEC is still working on GPUs. I googled a bit, and the only Japanese company I found in the few minutes I spent that designs GPUs (well, it's about as much a GPU as the Graphics Synthesizer was) seems to be a company called TOPS Systems Corporation. They create really weird stuff, like 9 x 73 core 800 TFLOPS realtime raytracing systems and such, but also low power SoCs for mobile devices. Might be unconventional and insane enough for Nintendo...

All right, raytracing on 3DS confirm.

 

[gerg]

And James Cameron's movies tend to rely more on the strength of being James Cameron's movies. How can you realize that Pixar movies benefit from brand recognition but not James Cameron's?

I don't think that it's the case that viewers actively associated Avatar with James Cameron, but that they associated it with "that guy who did Titanic a few years back".

In any case, Avatar's success was a combination of multiple factors (rather than "Was it or was it not its use of CGI?") some of which will be difficult, if even possible, to replicate again in the future.

 

[Mihos]

Honestly, before James Cameron did that thing at E3, I had no idea who the hell he was and thought that Avatar was going to be the Last Air Bender (My youngest was into that at the time).

 

[Dreamwriter]

Wow.

I can't believe you honestly think this. In your head you actually think, "Hmm, so this guy directed another movie that was the most successful of all time, and every franchise he has worked on is extremely well known, and his new movie is breaking records... eh, guess it's because of 3D!"

Also, are you too under the impression that UP! did well due to having 3D effects?

Actually, James Cameron himself pretty much said that 3D was a big reason behind Avatar's theatrical success. It got its highest numbers on 3D screens by far, and he said the moment the movie was replaced on 3D screens the viewership dropped 80%, though it was still available on tons of 2D screens. The movie's box office numbers were still amazing...until Alice in Wonderland pushed it off of the 3D screens. Which is why he's bringing it back to theaters in August, but mainly to 3D screens.

 

[wsippel]

All right, raytracing on 3DS confirm.

Choo choo?

Anyway, I found another candidate, and this one seems a lot more likely: DMP SMAPH-S

 

[fernoca]

I understand all that, in fact it's one of the main points in my posts in this thread; I don't see why people would want to blow money on a 3DS when there's other things at similar price points that play the games they want to play and way more.

I would assume that many of the people buying an HDTV because of the analog/ digital conversion or to play the Wii are people who don't a new TV very often and who won't buy a new one that they have 3D, just like they won't buy a 3DS when they just bought one recently and there's other more attractive devices out there now.

Just to clarify again, I'm not saying it will sell poorly by any means, just that they'll lose a lot of the "casual" market.

But that's the thing..
The market doesn't know they want it yet, and Nintendo is probably going to make sure they want one. Maybe not right from that bat, after all, the Nintendo DS didn't started gaining fame and acceptance till after the redesign and New Super Mario Bros, Nintendogs and Brain Age.

The "casuals" didn't asked for a 2D Mario, brain-training exercises or virtual dogs; the same way they didn't asked for motion controllers, sports mini-games, or music games to strike poses as you play just by waving a controller....

..but they got them, and decided they wanted them.

 

[thefro]

I understand all that, in fact it's one of the main points in my posts in this thread; I don't see why people would want to blow money on a 3DS when there's other things at similar price points that play the games they want to play and way more.

I would assume that many of the people buying an HDTV because of the analog/ digital conversion or to play the Wii are people who don't a new TV very often and who won't buy a new one that they have 3D, just like they won't buy a 3DS when they just bought one recently and there's other more attractive devices out there now.

Just to clarify again, I'm not saying it will sell poorly by any means, just that they'll lose a lot of the "casual" market.

Well, that's assuming that 3D is the only new thing here.

I think you'll see them combine the 3D tech with maybe an IR LED (read by the camera that needs to be there for DSi backwards compatibility) and a gyro on the stylus, which should allow you to touch and manipulate objects in 3-D.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Based on what exactly? The current consoles were expensive to make five years ago... so the 3DS will have crappy graphics. You have no reasoning behind your statement.

Let's turn this around. Can you think of a device that started at $400-600, and ~5 years later its equivalent was costing $200, only using 5% of the volume, and adding things like battery/screens/speakers?

 

[ILikeFeet]

whenever I think 3D stylus, I think Looksey's Link Up but controlled via stylus rather than headtracking

 

[QuiteWhittle]

You guys are way too argumentive for a system we know absolutely nothing about.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Well, a SGX545 has a 1Gpx/s fillrate. (admittedly calculated with an overdraw of 2.5, but that is pretty realistic). First generation Tegra does 600Mpx, and Tegra 2 is supposed to double that.

And of course, fillrate isn't everything. Particularly the SGX (but even Tegra) is far more flexible than Flipper.

I would be happy with an SGX545 - check out what it can do in an iPad at 1024x768:
Firemint Real Racing HD video

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Actually, James Cameron himself pretty much said that 3D was a big reason behind Avatar's theatrical success. It got its highest numbers on 3D screens by far, and he said the moment the movie was replaced on 3D screens the viewership dropped 80%, though it was still available on tons of 2D screens. The movie's box office numbers were still amazing...until Alice in Wonderland pushed it off of the 3D screens. Which is why he's bringing it back to theaters in August, but mainly to 3D screens.

So you're telling me that the movie was seen more when it first came out than months later when Alice replaced it and that's proof that 3D was the reason for its success?

 

[Fourth Storm]

Choo choo?

Anyway, I found another candidate, and this one seems a lot more likely: DMP SMAPH-S

Haha, that "New Product" at the top looks like the Nintendo logo!

 

[BowieZ]

Haha, that "New Product" at the top looks like the Nintendo logo!

damn, Nintendo droppin a trail of clues ninja style

 

[cw_sasuke]

Haha, that "New Product" at the top looks like the Nintendo logo!

:lol

 

[1-D_FTW]

Let's turn this around. Can you think of a device that started at $400-600, and ~5 years later its equivalent was costing $200, only using 5% of the volume, and adding things like battery/screens/speakers?

I don't think you should be comparing this to consoles. I think you should be looking at the portable chips that are out there.

Honestly, I've been fairly unimpressed with the high-power computing market for the past couple years. In a lot of ways, it's plateaued.

The lower power segment on the other hand has been crazy. The amount of performance coming from some of these extreme low power chips has been eye-opening. If you're into the whole performance/watt, it's nerd-gasmic.

 

[Caesar III]

Choo choo?

Anyway, I found another candidate, and this one seems a lot more likely: DMP SMAPH-S

Sounds good enough! A 4/8 mix wouldn't be that bad. Perhaps they can include a fullfledged 24 chip.
It even sounds like "easily" scalable in the future by upgrading the number of cores to 72 or something

 

[Durante]

Anyway, I found another candidate, and this one seems a lot more likely: DMP SMAPH-S

Great find! From what little information is available in that pdf it seems perfectly suited. Of course, with a scalability of 1-16 fragment and 1-8 vertex processors even if we had confirmation that this is it it wouldn't tell us much about the performance that can be expected.

I would be happy with an SGX545 - check out what it can do in an iPad at 1024x768:

AFAIK the iPad uses SGX535, not 545.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

I don't think you should be comparing this to consoles. I think you should be looking at the portable chips that are out there.

Honestly, I've been fairly unimpressed with the high-power computing market for the past couple years. In a lot of ways, it's plateaued.

The lower power segment on the other hand has been crazy. The amount of performance coming from some of these extreme low power chips has been eye-opening. If you're into the whole performance/watt, it's nerd-gasmic.

Exactly, Josh, your reasoning makes no sense.

 

[Dreamwriter]

So you're telling me that the movie was seen more when it first came out than months later when Alice replaced it and that's proof that 3D was the reason for its success?

No, I'm saying it was seen more ONE WEEK before Alice replaced it. James Cameron said that Avatar was still continually sold out at most 3D screens right up until the moment it was replaced (which was due to contracts, not to dropping sales). And those numbers did not transfer over to all the 2D screens that were still showing it. Viewership dropped 80% in one week, the week it was removed from the one or two 3D screens in each theater (while still on 3-4 2D screens in those theaters).

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Well, that's assuming that 3D is the only new thing here.

I think you'll see them combine the 3D tech with maybe an IR LED (read by the camera that needs to be there for DSi backwards compatibility) and a gyro on the stylus, which should allow you to touch and manipulate objects in 3-D.

As long as you can choose whether or not the 3D is turned on and how intense it is, I doubt 3D is going to be used for things that require it for gameplay too often.

 

[BowieZ]

Well, actually, they called it the successor to the DS line.

Sorry to continue this point, but speaking of the registration of 3DS trademarks:

Could 3DSPlay be something similiar to what we have seen with Wii Play? Who knows?! But that’s half the fun. 3DSWare seems to be an obvious successor to DSiWare, and hopefully that means that the DSiWare service will continue on the 3DS.

There were also a bunch of DS-related trademarks given out too with "DS Message", "DS Cinema" and "DS Movie" looking promising.

... could 3DSWare/Play be the name given to backwards compatibility? Like, to play NSMB DS in 3D or simply buy the game again and play it without 3D, you would go to the 3DSWare store? and something else for the main online store (like, I dunno, "TriiWare" or whatever).

mock if old etc

 

[dr3upmushroom]

But that's the thing..
The market doesn't know they want it yet, and Nintendo is probably going to make sure they want one. Maybe not right from that bat, after all, the Nintendo DS didn't started gaining fame and acceptance till after the redesign and New Super Mario Bros, Nintendogs and Brain Age.

The "casuals" didn't asked for a 2D Mario, brain-training exercises or virtual dogs; the same way they didn't asked for motion controllers, sports mini-games, or music games to strike poses as you play just by waving a controller....

..but they got them, and decided they wanted them.

Those are entirely new types of games though, games that didn't even require the two screen (you could say that they require the touch screen, but everything has a touch screen now, and like 3D, touch screens were nothing new, so I would compare the 3DS' 3D more to the two screen feature of the DS than to the touch screen feature). I would guess that there's probably not going to be too many games that provide entirely new experiences based on 3D, you can turn the feature off.

Also, a lot of people are saying things like "Nintendo will probably make sure people buy it," but how exactly do you propose they do this? Marketing games to people who don't traditionally play games was a pretty obvious maneuver, and now Apple has that market. Do you think Nintendo will have an ad just saying "You want this" and people will forget that there's another device that does all the gaming they want and much more for the same price?

 

[Captain Smoker]

:lol

XD