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[StuBurns]

I dunno about that, but I heard Apple signed up to use the next generation SGX GPU.

The iPhone 5 will obviously probably not have visuals on par with the Vita (except for like 2 games, the iPhone 4 does not even compare to the 3DS, despite the better hardware). But if someone invested enough, it could be a beast of a machine.

Don't take this as me championing the idea btw. In fact - I hate it.

lol

 

[LeleSocho]

Apple sells the iphone 4 for 550$ (for the 8GB model)... Imagine the meltdown if the 3DS sold for that much.

Ipod touch at 229$ say hi.

 

[AngryMoth]

Very happy to with my decision to wait until next year on the 3DS. I don't believe in buying multiple revisions of systems, and as an owner of an original DS and original PSP there was no way I was gonna get stuck with bulky hardware again. Definitely looking forward to getting one though. By the end of this year there will be no reason to complain about a lack of games, and I'm now banking on them adding a second stick to the revision. Thats when I'll be jumping in.

 

[Hugh Buelow]

And? The Vita is being sold for $249 and and is more powerful than any phone on the market.

The iphone is most probably sold with a generous profit margin. For the Vita, I'm not so sure. But my point is, for that price, you can put more powerful hardware, while still making profits on it.

My iPhone was free, as was lots of people's with their contract.

But it's not really free. You are paying for it. A lot. For it to be free, I'm expecting a 3 years contract...

 

[Rodney McKay]

Because PS2 was cutting edge technology, it was for all a totally new experiences. Nothing what you can say about the 3DS.

So 3DS games will never look better than they do right now?

 

[firelink]

lol

What's so funny? Show me a game other than Infinity Blade that looks better than any 3DS game.

 

[StuBurns]

What's so funny? Show me a game other than Infinity Blade that looks better than any 3DS game.

As if that even matters. Do you think Infinity Blade is voodoo? The machine is capable of outclassing the 3DS, and it has.

Also, Rage looks better than any 3DS games too. However as someone who doesn't really care about iOS gaming, I'm hardly the person to educate you.

But it's not really free. You are paying for it. A lot. For it to be free, I'm expecting a 3 years contract...

Two years actually, but that's hardly the point. The iPod Touch is equally powerful, and until just recently was cheaper than the 3DS.

It's irrelevant how much it costs though, it could be ten grand and it wouldn't have stopped it adjusting my appreciation of the technical performance of the 3DS. I can't control what impresses me, the 3DS does not. I'm not saying the PSV will before firelink makes another out of the blue mindless comment about my posts.

 

[PdotMichael]

So 3DS games will never look better than they do right now?

not ps2 like, yeah of course

 

[dark10x]

In fact, I seem to recall PS2 launch games looking pretty shitty for the most part.

Oh? Find me a 3DS title with visuals on par with Ridge Racer V.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2-Hvjr6Ls

That intro was really impressive back in 2000. 100% realtime at 60 fps. Ridge Racer 3D doesn't feature nearly as much detail in its visuals and runs at half the framerate. It was jaggy, a common problem with early PS2 titles, but the resolution was still higher than what you see on 3DS.

Also, developers weren't familiar with the visual techniques necessary to produce high quality PS2 games at the time. The 3DS in 2011 is old technology and should be much easier to exploit.

So 3DS games will never look better than they do right now?

Of course they will, but I doubt any leap will be as significant as what we saw with PS2.

 

[firelink]

As if that even matters. Do you think Infinity Blade is voodoo? The machine is capable of outclassing the 3DS, and it has.

Also, Rage looks better than any 3DS games too. However as someone who doesn't really care about iOS gaming, I'm hardly the person to educate you.

I specifically said it had better hardware. Come on man, I don't want issues here. I know the iPhone 4 has higher end hardware.

But like you mentioned Carmack said, it might all come down to the API this time too. Infinitely Blade is IOS's flagship title in terms of performance and visuals. If the 3DS can produce something better than that in a couple of years, the hardware argument becomes pretty moot.

Of course they will, but I doubt any leap will be as significant as what we saw with PS2.

I disagree.

I believe we will be seeing some pretty impressive 3DS games coming in the future.

 

[StuBurns]

If the 3DS can produce something better than that in a couple of years, the hardware argument becomes pretty moot.

And there is nothing at all that suggests to me it will.

 

[firelink]

And there is nothing at all that suggests to me it will.

I think you are going to be surprised in a year or two.

 

[Bluemercury]

It won't. It won't have a quad core CPU or dedicated video RAM, so it won't reach it in either CPU or GPU performance. And that's pure hardware specs, before factoring in software overhead.

Not the iphone5 but android smartphones first

 

[StuBurns]

I think you are going to be surprised in a year or two.

I think you're going to be disappointed in a year or two.

 

[PdotMichael]

I think you are going to be surprised in a year or two.

lol

it sounds like a bad premonition

 

[Durante]

Not the iphone5 but android smartphones first

Sure, it will happen. If I had to guess mid-2012 in a €800 phone. But that's just the hardware.

My Galaxy S2 is probably 10 times more powerful than 3DS, that doesn't mean that there are many games worth playing on it. But the image quality is much nicer!

 

[LeleSocho]

I think you are going to be surprised in a year or two.

I don't think so

 

[blu]

One of the most important technical fact about 3DS is that it doesn't support fragment programs. It's the only currently relevant platform for which this is the case. Even if some common effects could be replicated using the fixed function hardware, this still means that it requires an entirely separate software and content creation ecosystem. I think this decision will come back to haunt Nintendo.

Strongly disagree about the bolded part. Content creation pipelines seldom expect the asset artists to go down to shader creation - these things normally originate elsewhere and are taken as 'pre-canned' in the assets creation pipeline.

As long as 3ds' 'pre-canned' pixel shader effects overlap with what most current games out there use, assets will be reuse/downport-friendly.

 

[Durante]

Strongly disagree about the bolded part. Content creation pipelines seldom expect the asset artists to go down to shader creation - these things normally originate elsewhere and are taken as 'pre-canned' in the assets creation pipeline.

As long as 3ds' 'pre-canned' pixel shader effects overlap with what most current games out there use, assets will be reuse/downport-friendly.

This is true in terms of asset creation, I guess it really is a matter of how well the content creation tools offered map to the hardware. What we've seen so far in general doesn't inspire confidence though.

I still think the point about the "entirely separate software" holds though, the code path will have to be quite different with no programmable shaders.

 

[Hugh Buelow]

It's irrelevant how much it costs though, it could be ten grand and it wouldn't have stopped it adjusting my appreciation of the technical performance of the 3DS. I can't control what impresses me, the 3DS does not. I'm not saying the PSV will before firelink makes another out of the blue mindless comment about my posts.

The price one can sell a device is one factor that dictate the level of the tech inside it. Nintendo wouldn't be able to sell a console for 550$, yet, people here seem to expect them to ship a device just as powerful (if not more).

 

[chickdigger802]

Might just be me, but I'd rather have more sprite based games. Can't wait for some wayforward titles on 3ds.

Oh and another mario & luigi would be amazing.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

3ds looks closer to psp than it does xbox or even gamecube.

 

[blu]

This is true in terms of asset creation, I guess it really is a matter of how well the content creation tools offered map to the hardware. What we've seen so far in general doesn't inspire confidence though.

I still think the point about the "entirely separate software" holds though, the code path will have to be quite different with no programmable shaders.

True. But code is by far the lesser headache in a multiplatform/port project.

 

[StuBurns]

The price one can sell a device is one factor that dictate the level of the tech inside it. Nintendo wouldn't be able to sell a console for 550$, yet, people here seem to expect them to ship a device just as powerful (if not more).

I never said I expect iPhone 4 quality visuals, I said I can't find myself all that impressed by a dedicated handheld that isn't as powerful as my phone, which is actually much smaller too.

However, PSV is the same price 3DS was, and it is looking to produce much better than iPhone 4 visuals, so any excuse concerning price I'm going to write off as untrue. Nintendo very easily could have made a PSV quality system. And the Wii could have been PS360 quality, and although I'd say it's too early to say, the WiiU is looking every bit as underpowered all their post-GC systems.

 

[Minsc]

Here is my biggest problem with the 3DS (I know it's the DS, but the resolution is similarly low, 400x240 vs 256x192 against 960x640):

Compared to say how it looks on an iPod Touch:

Clearly not a deal breaker, but my enjoyment of games is lowered a bit visually by the 3DS's resolution (unless the game is meant to be low-res). Still, I'd take a fun low-res 2D game over a crappy high-res one any day, it's just a shame the 3DS games aren't ~2x the resolution.

 

[Pachterballs]

What's so funny? Show me a game other than Infinity Blade that looks better than any 3DS game.

apple and oranges. IOS gaming = $0.99 on sale and that can't be beat. discount itunes cards makes these games $0.80. even better. There are plenty of amazing looking iOS games - not iOS polygonal of course the sprite based titles can look very nice.

plus on ipad = even better.

3ds looks closer to psp than it does xbox or even gamecube.

this.

 

[Luckyman]

iPhone 4 has a shitty old GPU and still is enough.. wow just wow. 5 will have massive bumb

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Oh? Find me a 3DS title with visuals on par with Ridge Racer V.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2-Hvjr6Ls

That intro was really impressive back in 2000. 100% realtime at 60 fps. Ridge Racer 3D doesn't feature nearly as much detail in its visuals and runs at half the framerate. It was jaggy, a common problem with early PS2 titles, but the resolution was still higher than what you see on 3DS.

Also, developers weren't familiar with the visual techniques necessary to produce high quality PS2 games at the time. The 3DS in 2011 is old technology and should be much easier to exploit.


Of course they will, but I doubt any leap will be as significant as what we saw with PS2.

that still looks good.

 

[Reallink]

The price one can sell a device is one factor that dictate the level of the tech inside it. Nintendo wouldn't be able to sell a console for 550$, yet, people here seem to expect them to ship a device just as powerful (if not more).

So you read enough to toss in your 2¢'s about the iPhone, but conveniently ignored all the people that have pointed out the $220 iPod Touch. Good post.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

God I love these "convince me what the hardware's capable of in the future using games from the present" arguments.

 

[sfried]

Nintendo very easily could have made a PSV quality system. And the Wii could have been PS360 quality, and although I'd say it's too early to say, the WiiU is looking every bit as underpowered all their post-GC systems.

We don't even know the final specs yet! Not even the final chipset! What are you talking about?

 

[dark10x]

I disagree.

I believe we will be seeing some pretty impressive 3DS games coming in the future.

I'm not denying that fact.

However, the difference between launch PS2 games and some of the games released later in its life are SO significant that it may well have been a different platform all together. Take a look at something like Burnout 1 vs Burnout Revenge. The difference is ENORMOUS.

We went from a launch title like this...

to this...

You really think we're going to see leaps of that magnitude on 3DS?

 

[Hugh Buelow]

So you read enough to toss in your 2¢'s about the iPhone, but conveniently ignored all the people that have pointed out the $220 iPod Touch. Good post.

I was under the impression that the IPod Touch was less powerful than the iphone. Tech wise, they both seem very similar, so my point is invalid.

Sorry.

 

[LeleSocho]

I was under the impression that the IPod Touch was less powerful than the iphone. Tech wise, they both seem very similar, so my point is invalid.

Sorry.

they aren't very similar, they are the same

 

[M3d10n]

You really think we're going to see leaps of that magnitude on 3DS?

Not quite: the PS2 was incredibly hard to program for, all launch games were severely gimped.

But to say that the 3DS is maxed out based on fist and second gen games is unwise. Devs still need to learn how to do things efficiently with the GPU, speciallywhen it comes to reducing the cost of 3D (which by proxy improves the overall quality of the game).

Games with large scale environments could easily use impostors to render distant characters and objects only once per frame in 3D. Even scenery beyond a certain point could be rendered only once too, since after a certain distance depth differences aren't easily noticeable.

Also, the ARM11 is a member of the first family of ARM CPUs which has SIMD instructions and I seriously doubt any game currently on market is actually using them yet. It would allow devs to avoid using the vertex shaders for animating characters and thus reduce their cost in 3D.

And finally, there's the clock speed thing. I believe the 3DS GPU was downclocked a few months before release. I remember footage of the RE:Revelations demo in a 3DS event way before launch: it had more dynamic per-pixel lights than the Mercenaries demo and the flashlight cast shadows on everything (on the demo only monsters/characters cast shadows). And it was running on 3DS pre-release units on people's hands, with 3D on. If later games can use the original GPU clock (like later PSP games did) they could get a sizable complexity boost.

I was under the impression that the IPod Touch was less powerful than the iphone. Tech wise, they both seem very similar, so my point is invalid.

Sorry.

The iPod Touch has the same internal hardware, but a worse quality screen. The reason it is much cheaper than the iPhone is due to the way Apple handles production: the iTouchs are made after the iPhones they are based on have reached mass market production volume and approach the peak of their demand. So the hardware is both cheaper to produce and Apple has a surplus of production capacity due to the demand peaking, so they use it to produce iTouches.

 

[StuBurns]

We don't even know the final specs yet! Not even the final chipset! What are you talking about?

We've seen the games though, they look PS360 quality. If it was a generational leap, I'm pretty sure we'd know about it.

 

[AndyMoogle]

Let's not forget that there is a second screen on the 3DS. Sure, it's mostly used for low res 2D stuff, but a piece of the hardware goes to that.

Also, I'd like to give some credit to Nintendo for making an OS that runs smoothly. The multitasking while playing a game is pretty nice and quick. You can take notes and a picture of the paused screen in the game, browse on the web, and some other minor things while the game is still running.

I was actually pretty surprised that Nintendo could make an OS with multitasking that is much smoother than what we get on Xbox 360 for example. I definitely think that they should get some credit for that. It's not extremely impressive or complicated, but it works nicely and it's not sluggish.

 

[sfried]

Let's not forget that there is a second screen on the 3DS. Sure, it's mostly used for low res 2D stuff, but a piece of the hardware goes to that.

Also, I'd like to give some credit to Nintendo for making an OS that runs smoothly. The multitasking while playing a game is pretty nice and quick. You can make notes and take a picture of the paused screen in the game, browse on the web, and some other minor things while the game is still running. I was actually pretty surprised that Nintendo could make an OS with multitasking that is much smoother than what we get on Xbox 360 for example. I definitely think that they should get some credit for that. It's not extremely impressive or complicated, but it works nicely and it's not sluggish.

People also accused them for not making the browser Flash enabled, but the thing to consider is that you can pull the browser out at any time even while your game is HOME button suspended. I think it's pretty functional.

 

[StuBurns]

I hate the OS. I don't expect to like PSVs either though, looks bad.

 

[dark10x]

they aren't very similar, they are the same

Not true. I believe the iPod Touch 4G only features 256mb of memory while the iPhone 4 uses 512mb. That does make a difference.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

We've seen the games though, they look PS360 quality. If it was a generational leap, I'm pretty sure we'd know about it.

Oh man

 

[EvilMario]

We should keep the WiiU talk about of this thread. We've seen next to nothing from the system and this is suppose to be about the 3DS which has actual software and specifications.

 

[wsippel]

The res is really way too low for 2011. My phone has a rez that 2/3 times higher.

"Resolution" means two different things. There's the absolute number of pixels displayed, and the pixel density. While the 3DS doesn't display a huge number of pixels, the density is fine. Or to put it simply: For a display this size, the resolution is perfectly acceptable. Pretty good even. One of the reasons games on the actual system look leaps and bounds better than screenshots and trailers on the internet.

 

[fernoca]

I'm not denying that fact.

However, the difference between launch PS2 games and some of the games released later in its life are SO significant that it may well have been a different platform all together. Take a look at something like Burnout 1 vs Burnout Revenge. The difference is ENORMOUS.

We went from a launch title like this...

http://ps2media.ign.com/media/previews/image/midnightclub/midnightclub43.jpg

to this...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/dark1x/mc3.jpg

You really think we're going to see leaps of that magnitude on 3DS?

It would be possible. It always depends on developers. Heck, we never saw something like that on the Wii; then again Capcom thought the Wii couldn't do good visuals...until they saw what Cavia did with Darkside Chronicles. So it also depends on the publisher. :/

 

[StuBurns]

"Resolution" means two different things. There's the absolut number of pixels displayed, and the pixel density. While the 3DS doesn't display a huge number of pixels, the density is fine. Or to put it simply: For a display this size, the resolution is perfectly fine. Pretty good even.

It's fine, but it's bad. It'd be normal a few years ago when phones were shit, and the PSV wasn't about to be released.

 

[Mr_Brit]

"Resolution" means two different things. There's the absolute number of pixels displayed, and the pixel density. While the 3DS doesn't display a huge number of pixels, the density is fine. Or to put it simply: For a display this size, the resolution is perfectly acceptable. Pretty good even. One of the reasons games on the actual system look leaps and bounds better than screenshots and trailers on the internet.

Wut? Is this some alternate reality? In what world is a 240p 3.5" screen acceptable in any way?

 

[wsippel]

It's fine, but it's bad. It'd be normal a few years ago when phones were shit, and the PSV wasn't about to be released.

That makes no sense. It would only need a higher resolution (more pixels) if the screens were bigger. Screenshots and trailers look like jaggy messes on a PC because the PC is typically the system with the "shit resolution" (pixel density). The physical resolution of the 3DS top screen actually exceeds that of the Vita as far as I remember (266PPI vs. 237PPI).

 

[Lesiroth]

"Resolution" means two different things. There's the absolute number of pixels displayed, and the pixel density. While the 3DS doesn't display a huge number of pixels, the density is fine. Or to put it simply: For a display this size, the resolution is perfectly acceptable. Pretty good even. One of the reasons games on the actual system look leaps and bounds better than screenshots and trailers on the internet.

In what world is a 400x240 on a 3.5in screen adequate when you have phones with almost 3 times the resolution on the same size of screen available?

 

[wsippel]

In what world is a 400x240 on a 3.5in screen adequate when you have phones with almost 3 times the resolution on the same size of screen available?

The actual physical resolution is 800x240, which is pretty damn good for such a small display.

 

[PdotMichael]

The actual physical resolution is 800x240, which is pretty damn good for such a small display.

the physical resolution is not important, you will see just 400 x 240

That makes no sense. It would only need a higher resolution (more pixels) if the screens were bigger. Screenshots and trailers look like jaggy messes on a PC because the PC is typically the system with the "shit resolution" (pixel density). The physical resolution of the 3DS top screen actually exceeds that of the Vita as far as I remember (266PPI vs. 237PPI).

3ds PPI = 133