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[BDGAME]

Let’s start a topic to discuss about the Nintendo 3DS hardware. The idea of this thread is remove from game’s threads the discussion of how powerful or not the 3DS is and create a reference topic to everybody consult in future where we try to understand what this handled really can do or not.

I understand that measure the power of a machine is something very hard to do if you don’t have all the specs in hand, but I believe we can approach from the truth here. The image I put above is because everybody here understand that 3DS is more powerful than a Dreamcast and less powerful than a Vita. But what kind of game a company can do with its hardware?

Is 3DS powerful enough to run a Monster Hunter game with all their detailed creatures?

Can the 3DS produce a lot of enemies like Rebel Strike?

Or even produce a game with lots of shaders like Riddick?

Or run any of these games?
http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/a...of-the-cursed-king-20051116001115384_640w.jpg
http://www.linickx.com/files/2008/05/ssx3.jpg
http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2001/vgnews/102201/roguel_790screen009.jpg
http://images.fragland.net/screenshots/3632/2.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2002/vgnews/053102/ninjagaiden_screen002.jpg
http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1297/1138623093.jpg
http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/1/68/Far_Cry_qjpreviewth.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cdADKZp-q...AI8/3Z0sVR_nKn0/s1600/granturismo4(ps2)_2.jpg
http://carsmedia.ign.com/cars/image/RSC2_ARG_WRX2_640w.jpg


Most of the discuss about 3DS power came from the polycount that hardware can or not do.

Everybody that understand about hardwares say that polygons is not the best way to measure a hardware power. If its for polygons alone, the Ps2 was to be a more powerful machine than gamecube, but most of the games that was made for ps2 and ported to NGC had a better graphic in gamecube. In the inverse, none of the games that came from NGC to Ps2 looks better on Ps2. That is because there are a lot of things the machine need to do to display a game, like:
- Polygons / geometry
- Textures
- Light and shadows
- AI
- Physics
- Filters (like AA)
- after-effects (like transparency, reflection and other shaders)

It is the capacity of the machine to make this conjuncture of elements run together that make a fair understand of how powerful the hardware can be. This and the competency of the team that is working in this machine. Below has a good example. Look how this year's Driver look starving in polygons on wii version, but look a a driver made in 2007 after that.

Driver: San Francisco Wii (2011): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7pzla1PdM&feature=youtu.be
Driver Parallel lines Wii (2007): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKE4FkHpUyg

Its prove that not only the capacity of the machine is necessary, but the competence of the team that is working in this machine.

Other thing that is possible to discuss is the effects 3DS can do. I bring back this from other topics to use as a example of what we can expect when developers really try to utilize the hardware of a proper manner:

27 - What effects / shaders can the 3DS / Pica200 do?
The 3DS comes with a series of shaders ready in the box. DMP's MAESTRO technology is used for these; it is a customized version of OpenGL/ES1.1 with added features. In addition to the basic shaders, MAESTRO-2 g technology lets you see:

- Blending [a]

Allows for reflection, as mirrors, without having to bend processing (like was done in Ps2 and PSP). Same result, better performance.

- Cube environment map

A smart way to trace the light for different materials. The first picture is used the old method and the other the Cube environment map.

- Normal Map

More advanced that the Bump Mapping, creates a 3-d look in 2D textures.

- Procedural Texture

Allows use textures with good resolution (less blur) and saving space. Facilitates implementation of normal mapping and saves processing.

- tessellation

Subdivision of polygons antialiasing to image. Can split 1 polygon up to 16 times depending on the distance of the object. Helps save polygons and processing.

- Soft shadow

Allows the creation of real-time soft shadows on the environment and self-shadowing

- subsurface scattering

For showing light impact on different materials, including transparency and brightness

- Bidirectional Reflectance Distribution

Refraction of light that causes brightness on the edges of clothes and models.

- object rendering gas

Volumetric fog, perfect to do things like clouds.

See MINKAGE demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-NQBKVlUBc

See more information and photos here:
http://translate.google.com.br/tran...20100715_380961.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
and
http://translate.google.com.br/tran...20100716_381357.html&sl=ja&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

MT Framework Mobile on 3DS

- Resident Evil Revelations
Revelations started for 3DS,it's not a project that was on another hardware and then moved to 3DS.
Takuechi says that at first people couldn't believe the results they were getting.
The game utilizes all the common rendering techniques on 360/PS3 like HDR rendering, surface shaders and normal maps, there are a lot more details in there and picture comparisons. Depth of field, gamma correction etc all are used.
In 3D mode it's 30fps (for each eye)

I don't know if these pics are new or not!!

Left without HDR, right with HDR

Left without color correction, right with it.

Motion Blur, apparently it's not compatible with 3D and is only used in 2D mode.

Left without motion blur, right with it.

Depth of Field

Normal maps

Surface shaders, self shadowing

More than that, we know that 3DS has 128 MB of ram, thats twice the amount of ram found in XBOX. What other specs we know about 3DS hardware?

The rest of technical specs of these machines and what they can or not do, I will let to who really understand about this subject. But for me, this hardware is localized between D and E on the first screen in this thread.

 

[Gospel]

Wonderful timing

 

[Medalion]

Good god the amount of doom 3DS, Wii-U, Nintendo threads lately

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I'm thinking you chose a poor time to make this thread. Everyone's only interested in slide-pad add-on thing at the moment.

 

[specialguy]

Nice post.

On the 128 MB of RAM though, isn't at least 32 reserved for the OS? Still it was more RAM than originally rumored for 3DS, a rare and welcome case of Nintendo hardware specs actually exceeding expectations.

 

[StuBurns]

I've seen nothing that suggests it's PS2 level even in terms of poly count. But the shader work makes games look better than lots of last gen games. It's not very impressive.

 

[WillyFive]

Seems like a Dreamcast with modern shaders to me.

 

[airmangataosenai]

C is most likely the correct answer but not as in directly in the middle. I wouldn't put it near the Gamecube's best, a good comparison would be Luigi's Mansion and it's handheld sequel, especially when you consider how the Gamecube game was a launch title.

 

[LOCK]

Between Gamecube and Xbox is my guess. But for a handheld, and many years (lol) to go who knows and who cares. Its all about art direction really.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I just want more games

 

[Medalion]

This new 3DS revision I just saw, let's talk about that

 

[BDGAME]

Nice post.

On the 128 MB of RAM though, isn't at least 32 reserved for the OS? Still it was more RAM than originally rumored for 3DS, a rare and welcome case of Nintendo hardware specs actually exceeding expectations.

True. So it has 96 MB to games, that is more than the 64 MB of XBOX and 4x more than the 24 MB of PSP.

I've seen nothing that suggests it's PS2 level even in terms of poly count. But the shader work makes games look better than lots of last gen games. It's not very impressive.

When you say "even in terms of poly count", is because you think the Ps2 can do something the 3DS can't, not count the poly count?

Seems like a Dreamcast with modern shaders to me.

So, are you tell me a Dreamcast can run games like MGS3, Kingdom Hearts, RE Mercenary or even the Conduit?

Look, the difference between the first generation of 3DS and Vita (or even PSP) is that the Sony machines had games that really show how powerful these devices are. The 3DS has nothing of it. The first generation of 3DS games are made of quick and cheap ports, remakes of old games and rushed games that in nothing can show what this machine can do.

But looks what is coming (the good look games) and you see its a lot more than a Dreamcast with shaders.

 

[StuBurns]

When you say "even in terms of poly count", is because you think the Ps2 can do something the 3DS can't, not count the poly count?

The even was a redundant word, not sure why I put it in there. But essentially yes, I think the PS2 can do things the 3DS cannot.

 

[Peru]

Well we're getting a Monster Hunter Tri version now, that should make it possible to compare with the Wii.

 

[blu]

Speaking from the point of view architecture hypothesizing, PICA200 seems like an apt choice for a gaming handheld, since it is making a fundamentally right trade-off: presence of vertex shader 2.0 programming capabilities, absence of flexible-yet-powerdraw-costly fully-programmable pixel shader capabilities. In the course of history of 3D graphics, the flexibility at the vertex end of the pipeline has proven overall more important/beneficient than offering the most programability at the pixel end.

Anecdotally speaking, a few titles already on the platform leave me with no disappointment of nintendo's choice. *shrug*

 

[dark10x]

I'm slightly baffled by the hardware. On paper, it should match the Gamecube pretty handily, but the results we're seeing just aren't there. Some first year Gamecube titles blow the doors off of any and everything we've seen on the 3DS, for instance.

Motion Blur, apparently it's not compatible with 3D and is only used in 2D mode.

Left without motion blur, right with it.

Regarding Revelations, the demo does not include motion blur of any kind.

In fact, the demo as a whole looks rather disappointing, I thought. The framerate is unsteady, the environments very simple, and the lighting toned down. It simply doesn't look as impressive as those demo shots. I do believe it will be a lovely game in the end, but that first trailer really gave the impression that it was closer to PS3/360 levels when, in reality, the demo is not. That's not to say it won't improve by the final release, but I expect the demo to be more representative of the game than the first tech demo trailer.

 

[[Nintex]]

They might need another attachment for this





But jokes aside, the 3DS is like the Dreamcast+ when it comes to geometry and the Xbox as far as shaders go. Which is fine and awesome in my book only the resolution seems to hold it back a bit.

 

[firelink]

The problem is that no one knows the GPU speed of the PICA200. It can range from 100 to 400, and if it is 200 or higher, the polygon count of the 3DS will exceed that of the PS2.

Any lower, and it would pale in comparison. The 3DS's saving grace is the shaders. In a day and age where polygons count for less and less (PS2 had like 1 game comparable to the GCN and Xbox, despite being able to push more polygons. Halo 2 looked leagues better than Halo 1, despite pushing less polygons), the 3DS has top notch shaders that can keep up with any platform out right now.

As for the power scale, since its release, devs have been saying about the power of the Wii, maybe a little more or less. So that would put it above the Xbox and below the Vita.

 

[Lonely1]

The whole 3D affair cripples the poly count of the machine.

 

[Ocaso]

It's a shame Nintendo's policies on tech specs don't allow for more informed discussion, but the description "Dreamcast-level poly counts with modern shaders" does describe most of what we've seen. To the person who asked whether the DC could have run MGS3, the answer is "who knows?". The DC died a premature death, and we will never know just how far developers could have pushed the machine given time.

 

[EvilMario]

The whole 3D affair cripples the poly count of the machine.

If they begin to allow 2D only content, it could be glorious.

 

[iKhayal18]

I was waiting for this topic

 

[Ocaso]

If they begin to allow 2D only content, it could be glorious.

It'll be an interesting experiment, at least, as to whether people will buy 2D-only content on the system. I, for one, would have issues supporting titles that don't take advantage of the 3D feature.

 

[Datschge]

I don't even think the polygon count is that important considering the low screen resolution. More important is how powerful and efficient the tessellation is as that allows economic use of polygons while not neglecting details on close ups. If the Resident Evil Revelations screens so far are any indication about what's possible once developers touch it I'd put the result between Xbox and Vita (always keeping in mind the lower resolution the 3DS has. It couldn't compete with Xbox at resolutions of SD/640 or higher but it has no display output for such anyway).

 

[ScionOfTheRisingSun]

Thanks for putting a name and side by side examples of some of the next-gen effects which I find make for uglier games.

I especially hate the way normal maps are usually used in games, to me it makes for an eyesore.

 

[nincompoop]

The 3DS' shitty polygon capabilities are really limiting the quality of its visuals. Most games don't take advantage of its advanced shader capabilities most of the time, and as a result they hardly look any better than PSP games. Not to mention that framerates have suffered as a result, as very few games manage to run at 60 fps and those that do barely look any better than DC games.

 

[beril]

The MH3G scans look very similiar to the Wii version, though they're quite blurry so it's hard to really make anything out. Some people have pointed out that it looks like it has proper shadows, while MH3 only had blob shadows on the Wii. Anyway, the 3DS can obviously handle a Monter Hunter game, we knew that before it was announced.

 

[faridmon]

Screw you OP. Now I want WCR game on the 3DS

 

[BDGAME]

The even was a redundant word, not sure why I put it in there. But essentially yes, I think the PS2 can do things the 3DS cannot.

Tell me, what ps2 can do that 3DS can't.

Well we're getting a Monster Hunter Tri version now, that should make it possible to compare with the Wii.

True. A lot of companies compare 3DS with Wii in terms of power. Capcom says they outperform the Wii with they 3DS next games.

And the Conduit been ported is another good exaple how powerful this machine really are.

Screw you OP. Now I want WCR game on the 3DS

What is WCR?

 

[StuBurns]

Tell me, what ps2 can do that 3DS can't.

For a start, a perfect port of MGS3.

I don't know for a fact it couldn't in theory, but it hasn't proven it can.

 

[BDGAME]

I'm slightly baffled by the hardware. On paper, it should match the Gamecube pretty handily, but the results we're seeing just aren't there. Some first year Gamecube titles blow the doors off of any and everything we've seen on the 3DS, for instance.


Regarding Revelations, the demo does not include motion blur of any kind.

In fact, the demo as a whole looks rather disappointing, I thought. The framerate is unsteady, the environments very simple, and the lighting toned down. It simply doesn't look as impressive as those demo shots. I do believe it will be a lovely game in the end, but that first trailer really gave the impression that it was closer to PS3/360 levels when, in reality, the demo is not. That's not to say it won't improve by the final release, but I expect the demo to be more representative of the game than the first tech demo trailer.

Ops, forgot to mention you. If on paper it can do games like Gamecube, the fact that its not make any game in its first generations don't mean that We can't see these games in the future.

And I don't see any launched game that had the investment of a Rouge Squadron or a Luigi's massion in 3DS current Library.

 

[Resilient]

Wow, this was a really interesting OP. Thanks for the read! I think the 3DS has a lot to offer, but like with all hardware these days it's up to the software that devs push out on it. We can't see what it really can do still that starts to happen. It just needs time, and this doom and gloom will die down once the software starts appearing.

This happens every launch of a console. There are barely any games for months. For some reason in 2011 this isn't acceptable. I think it's because so many people game these days compared to when the PS2 released. Just give it time folks.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

3ds has the same shader functionality as games did 8 years ago!? Wow. That is amazing. And it only costs as much as a full retail console!

Now let's post some Capcom RE bullshots even after the reality check that was RE Mercenaries 3d.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

It doesn't matter what it's capable of when the resolution still sucks.

 

[onQ123]

in between Gamecube & Xbox ,

& why isn't the Wii on your chart?

 

[deathkiller]

If they begin to allow 2D only content, it could be glorious.

They already do allow 2D only for motion based control games:

 

[fabricated backlash]

For a start, a perfect port of MGS3.

I don't know for a fact it couldn't in theory, but it hasn't proven it can.

Judging by the terrible controls and UI I'd say the sorry state of MGS3 on the 3DS has more to do with either:
a) little to no budget (graphics suggest that)
b) complete incompetence of the team (UI suggests that)

 

[EvilMario]

They already do allow 2D only for motion based control games:

Forced waggle, or forced 3D. Hooray.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I was under the impression (I can't remember why) that they're using an underclocked PICA200 -- it would normally be at 200mhz but they're clocking it at 130 or something. Perhaps with some extra battery power / firmware / software optimisations they'll be able to clock the PICA higher in a similar vein to the way Sony clocked the PSP higher later in life. I definitely believe the machine is capable of more than we've seen so far.

 

[Barrett2]

IMO, the visuals on the system are pretty shitty. There's no excuse for a system released in 2011 to have so many games looking that bad.

 

[Mr_Brit]

I was under the impression (I can't remember why) that they're using an underclocked PICA200 -- it would normally be at 200mhz but they're clocking it at 130 or something. Perhaps with some extra battery power / firmware / software optimisations they'll be able to clock the PICA higher in a similar vein to the way Sony clocked the PSP higher later in life. I definitely believe the machine is capable of more than we've seen so far.

Clock speeds have never been confirmed.

 

[EvilMario]

IMO, the visuals on the system are pretty shitty. There's no excuse for a system released in 2011 to have so many games looking that bad.

I'd hold judgement until after the holidays, when games that have had complete development cycles, made specifically for the system are released. And this of course includes games like Super Mario 3D Land, which 'should' be the best looking game on the system.

So much of what has been released thus far are upgraded ports, intentionally held back (like Ocarina), or rush jobs / tech demos.

 

[lowrider007]

If they begin to allow 2D only content, it could be glorious.

Amen to that seriously, this system could be beast for 2D only games.

 

[phosphor112]

It doesn't matter what it's capable of when the resolution still sucks.

This...

Also...

Spoiler

lmao cube mapping!

 

[dark10x]

Amen to that seriously, this system could be beast for 2D only games.

It could certainly do a better job, but once you got straight 2D, why bother? The Vita is going to produce superior results in that area and the screen resolution is still extremely low. I can't imagine we'll see many games omitting the 3D function.

 

[StuBurns]

Judging by the terrible controls and UI I'd say the sorry state of MGS3 on the 3DS has more to do with either:
a) little to no budget (graphics suggest that)
b) complete incompetence of the team (UI suggests that)

A) It costs less to not change the assets.
B) That's design incompetence, not technical incompetence.

Nothing on 3DS looks as good as MGS3 on PS2, so if they're incompetent, so is everyone else. OoT even has slow down and it looks like shit.

 

[Kosma]

The res is really way too low for 2011. My phone has a rez that 2/3 times higher.

 

[The Lamonster]

Okay I need to replay Rebel Strike ASAP. That game was so fucking ace (I'm ignoring the human levels).

 

[dark10x]

A) It costs less to not change the assets.
B) That's design incompetence, not technical incompetence.

Nothing on 3DS looks as good as MGS3 on PS2, so if they're incompetent, so is everyone else. OoT even has slow down and it looks like shit.

Yeah, Stu is right on here. Changing assets for the 3DS requires additional time and money that could be avoided by simply re-using all of the original assets. Obviously, there was a need for them to make these changes and I suspect it was due to performance issues. What else would explain the reduction in quality?

The fact is, it shouldn't REQUIRE a master coder to achieve PS2 level visuals on the platform. Visuals of that quality SHOULD come easy if the system was as capable as we were lead to believe. That's really the issue here. Of course the visual quality will improve as more developer learn the hardware, but the results should have been more impressive out of the gate.

That said, I still think the visuals it can produce are reasonably attractive. They will not spoil my enjoyment of its library. I DO wish it were producing better results, though.

 

[The Lamonster]

Comparing Plants vs. Zombies on my 3DS with my girlfriend's iPhone, 3DS looks and plays like shit. Terrible framerate and screen image isn't very sharp.