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Nintendo releases fix for Zelda Skyward Sword bug via channel patch

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I don't understand...updating the firmware on your Wii doesn't take away features, and the only thing it added was the SD Card functionality and clock, to my knowledge, so why would you be resistant to updating your firmware?

Because it can screw with homebrew. Won't brick your Wii, but it might delete your homebrew channel and patch the exploit that allows it to be installed. Hackers usually release safe versions of the firmware shortly after each update, but if you don't really care about the new features you might decide its not worth the hassle.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I'm just saying, it's pretty obvious that there's no way to update Wii to have a system-wide patching system, so the alternatives to this are replacing the disc (which would have been A LOT more messy than this) or not getting any fix at all. Hindsight is 20-20, and it's too late for another alternative. There's no point in acting like there's something else they could have done. This was a pretty clever work-around, though.

That said, the fact the 3DS still doesn't have a patching system is horrifying. I really fear that Wii U will also lack it, making the system worthless for any game that isn't exclusive to it.

1) It's not like it's a case of "hindsight is 20-20". That expression applies when there are unintented consequences to a policy that only become apparent in hindsight. It doesn't apply to someone closing their eyes and plugging their ears, failing, and then claiming no one told them they were wrong.

Every time there's a disc recall (Fatal Frame IV, Endless Ocean JPN, Mario Party 8 EU, Super Paper Mario EU, Tales of Graces JPN, Card Fighters DS, Age of Empires DS) or unfixable problem (Metroid: Other M Wii, Tomb Raider Underworld Wii, Bubble Bobble Revolution DS, others) or even security issue (Super Smash Bros Brawl Wii, Lego <x> Wii, Zelda: Twilight Princess Wii) caused by either the technical failure or the administrative failure to implement patching, it's a constant reminder of this poor decision. It wasn't a hindsight thing. These are the obvious consequences of the choice they made. They were either myopic to the point of negligence or idiotic to the point of incompetence (and I refuse to believe it's the latter).

2) It's not whatsoever obvious that the Wii couldn't have been updated at some point in the past with a patching system. Again, amateur programmers have hacked on a generally functional patching system on top of the OS via Ocarina codes, Microsoft, Sony, Valve, and Apple have all majorly revised and/or expanded their patching architecture in the last 5 years.

I 100% agree that provided you move past the manifold ways that Nintendo screwed up on this, this is the most clever solution possible under the circumstances.

All the complaints are dumb, because there shouldn't have been a problem in the first place. Patches are a joke, just get the game right in the first place. Nintendo's apparently dropped the ball a couple times this gen, with long quality control cycles. They tend to marinate on finished games, there's no excuse why games should come out with breaking flaws at all.

There isn't a single software company, in any discipline of software, with any budget, with any development length, with any software complexity from the lowest level database CRUD app to the most complicated pieces of software developed ever, who can "get it right in the first place". It simply isn't possible.

It wasn't possible 25 years ago, it isn't possible now. NES and SNES games frequently had serious issues, and had to be re-released to fix bugs. Some of the most critically acclaimed games of all time have serious unpatched bugs. Consider Final Fantasy VI, which has some 150+ unpatched bugs in the final version including serious problems that corrupt saves relatively easily and major battle system bugs that break the game in several key ways strategically.

It's important to have rigorous testing procedures and I have no idea if this specific bug should have been caught before release or not, but the idea that "they should just get it right" is silly. It's not going to happen.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Why can't they just patch the game? Why make us download a separate program? Terrible solution.

Because they don't have the system wide structure in place to do software patches and Skyward Sword doesn't have the internal system for patching. All they really have are firmware updates and these channel executables.
 

Thoraxes

Member
Well, at least it's better than sending a SD Card with your save on it like they did for Other M.

Babysteps, but they will get there. Someday.

EDIT: Hum, the 3DS and it's games are patchable (though the Ridge Racer fix was through a firmware update). It also supports DLC.

Too bad nobody is going to ready your post or has followed what they said they're going to be doing with the 3DS :/
 

waicol

Banned
So they released a game with a nasty bug in it. Then they patched the bug with an outdated system.

And yet these other up to date systems of delivering patches still see far more numerous and far more serious bugs released time and time again.

What exactly are we laughing at again?

We are laughing at Nintendo, cause this the 23th ¨lol nintendo¨ thread of the day.
 

Orayn

Member
Why can't they just patch the game? Why make us download a separate program? Terrible solution.

When you run a Wii game, everything done by the Wii's CPU is dictated by what's on the disc, so there's no direct way to run external code like a patch.

This channel is Nintendo's workaround solution for fixing the symptoms of the bug because they can't address the root cause.
 

Erekiddo

Member
If I have to jump through that many hoops to grab a Wiiware game or even boot up a retail disc it's not worthwhile.

There's new ways to install homebrew now that still allow access to the Wii shop. I did mine several firmware updates ago, (with the Twilight Princess trick) and didn't feel like figuring out a way for mine to survive each one.

There's little risk in it nowadays.
 

Mikey Jr.

Member
So, you don't have any Wi-Fi?

No, I don't have wifi.

My PS3, Wii and Laptop are in my room.

I get 1mb a second download when downloading on my PS3. I really doubt I will get that with wireless.

If I need internet in my basement to play my 360 online, I use my megaplug which essentially gives me wired ethernet speeds.

It has worked out fine for me.



I just want to download a Zelda patch...........
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
If I have to jump through that many hoops to grab a Wiiware game or even boot up a retail disc it's not worthwhile.

You only jump through the hoops each time a firmware update is released.

EDIT: Also, as Orayn pointed out, calling this a "patch" is a misnomer: its a fix for broken save files.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
You only jump through the hoops each time a firmware update is released.

EDIT: Also, as Orayn pointed out, calling this a "patch" is a misnomer: its a fix for broken save files.

And there hasn't been a firmware update in over a year.
Don't bother seriously replying to AZ though.
 
And there hasn't been a firmware update in over a year.
Don't bother seriously replying to AZ though.

Sorry, it's just the comments of "I wouldn't even bother owning a ____ without homebrew/CFW" always bothers me because I never saw the point of it outside of playing imports.
 

Kazerei

Banned
No, I don't have wifi.

My PS3, Wii and Laptop are in my room.

I get 1mb a second download when downloading on my PS3. I really doubt I will get that with wireless.

If I need internet in my basement to play my 360 online, I use my megaplug which essentially gives me wired ethernet speeds.

It has worked out fine for me.



I just want to download a Zelda patch...........

You can buy a cheap wireless router and connect it to your existing router. I don't exactly know how, but tech-gaf can help you there. It'll involve something something static IP address.

EDIT: Well, I guess it'd be cheaper and easier just to buy that dongle for the Wii. But on the plus side, if you set up a wireless network, you'll be able to use your laptop and other wireless devices anywhere!
 

BurntPork

Banned
1) It's not like it's a case of "hindsight is 20-20". That expression applies when there are unintented consequences to a policy that only become apparent in hindsight. It doesn't apply to someone closing their eyes and plugging their ears, failing, and then claiming no one told them they were wrong.

Every time there's a disc recall (Fatal Frame IV, Endless Ocean JPN, Mario Party 8 EU, Super Paper Mario EU, Tales of Graces JPN, Card Fighters DS, Age of Empires DS) or unfixable problem (Metroid: Other M Wii, Tomb Raider Underworld Wii, Bubble Bobble Revolution DS, others) or even security issue (Super Smash Bros Brawl Wii, Lego <x> Wii, Zelda: Twilight Princess Wii) caused by either the technical failure or the administrative failure to implement patching, it's a constant reminder of this poor decision. It wasn't a hindsight thing. These are the obvious consequences of the choice they made. They were either myopic to the point of negligence or idiotic to the point of incompetence (and I refuse to believe it's the latter).

2) It's not whatsoever obvious that the Wii couldn't have been updated at some point in the past with a patching system. Again, amateur programmers have hacked on a generally functional patching system on top of the OS via Ocarina codes, Microsoft, Sony, Valve, and Apple have all majorly revised and/or expanded their patching architecture in the last 5 years.

I 100% agree that provided you move past the manifold ways that Nintendo screwed up on this, this is the most clever solution possible under the circumstances.

It's not just the console that may have gotten in the way though. Keep in mind that the online experience of each game is completely independent. That might have also gotten in the way and made it so that it would have to be done on a per-game basis. Since SS doesn't use online at all, they'd be forced to create online functionality just for patching, which would have potentially been a total waste of money, and this Cheaptendo here.

Though, honestly, I think Miyamoto is to blame. He probably thinks that a patching system would cause their younger devs to slack with QC. :p
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
Sorry, it's just the comments of "I wouldn't even bother owning a ____ without homebrew/CFW" always bothers me because I never saw the point of it outside of playing imports.

If that guy said that in this thread, I missed it.
I agree with you though on that point, my Wii and PSPs don't need it, but I still do CFW as it adds features without hurting anything.
 

zethren

Banned
What exactly was wrong with Skyward Sword again? I'm not very far into the game, and haven't encountered any real game breaking issues.
 

Haunted

Member
What exactly was wrong with Skyward Sword again? I'm not very far into the game, and haven't encountered any real game breaking issues.
There was one possible game-breaking bug during the endgame if you talked to a specific NPC more than twice before finishing the quest he gave you.

Pretty particular, but enough people experienced it that it had to be acknowledged and fixed by Nintendo.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
It's not just the console that may have gotten in the way though. Keep in mind that the online experience of each game is completely independent. That might have also gotten in the way and made it so that it would have to be done on a per-game basis.

I don't really know what you're arguing here. I am a programmer, I don't understand architecturally why "the online experience of each game is completely independent" precludes system-level game services like presence data, achievements, patching, screen capture stuff, etc. But no matter what the cause, it all goes back to the fact that somewhere along the line, they made some decision that is now hoisting them by their petard.

Since SS doesn't use online at all, they'd be forced to create online functionality just for patching, which would have potentially been a total waste of money, and this Cheaptendo here.

Where Nintendo falls on the myopia, corner-cutting, and idiocy triangle for failing to recognize the importance of patching is not important to me. Just that the decision actively limits it to those three things, and none of them are good.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Load times alone are worth it, tbh.

oh man yeah. hard drive load times are amazing.

Also, having tons of games available without disc switching like on PC.

Then there's the whole region free thing.
 

zethren

Banned
There was one possible game-breaking bug during the endgame if you talked to a specific NPC more than twice before finishing the quest he gave you.

Pretty particular, but enough people experienced it that it had to be acknowledged and fixed by Nintendo.

Huh, interesting. It is pretty particular, but I can definitely see it becoming a widespread issue. I have a habit of talking to NPCs multiple times, usually just to see if they have anything different to say the next time. Good to know that that habit would have ended up ruining the experience...:/

Thanks.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Because it can screw with homebrew. Won't brick your Wii, but it might delete your homebrew channel and patch the exploit that allows it to be installed. Hackers usually release safe versions of the firmware shortly after each update, but if you don't really care about the new features you might decide its not worth the hassle.
Safe versions of the firmware by hackers, what? You guys need to visit the gaf wii homebrew thread... You can easily have a fully updated Wii with all the official and all the homebrew functions you want on top and it has been that way for years... The gist of it is that if you have the homebrew channel's latest version then any firmware update at most will stub some CIOS locations while leaving the channel intact, through which you get everything else back, and even that doesn't happen if you've followed Clipper's guide which installs them in alternative locations instead. All you really need to be careful of is to not update day one until any potential issues are scouted, but updates have been few and far between for ages too anyway, and most of the last ones didn't need changes on homebrew either, updating as usual had no bad effects.
 
People are really bashing Nintendo for fixing the game.

The Wii doesn't support patches so they found a backwards way to do it.
Do you think was going to develop a patching system this late into the console cycle.
Most likely the Wii u will have a patching system since the 3DS has one.
 

Medalion

Banned
People are really bashing Nintendo for fixing the game.

The Wii doesn't support patches so they found a backwards way to do it.
Do you think was going to develop a patching system this late into the console cycle.
Most likely the Wii u will have a patching system since the 3DS has one.
Why can't Nintendo do things like their competitors? If their can't be fewer gaming companies, at least have them all have a standard in doing things like this
 

«þ»

Member
Both CoD: BO and MW3 on Wii got multiple patches, so clearly patching is possible, can someone explain how Treyarch did it and why Nintendo can't?
 
1) It's not like it's a case of "hindsight is 20-20". That expression applies when there are unintented consequences to a policy that only become apparent in hindsight. It doesn't apply to someone closing their eyes and plugging their ears, failing, and then claiming no one told them they were wrong.

Every time there's a disc recall (Fatal Frame IV, Endless Ocean JPN, Mario Party 8 EU, Super Paper Mario EU, Tales of Graces JPN, Card Fighters DS, Age of Empires DS) or unfixable problem (Metroid: Other M Wii, Tomb Raider Underworld Wii, Bubble Bobble Revolution DS, others) or even security issue (Super Smash Bros Brawl Wii, Lego <x> Wii, Zelda: Twilight Princess Wii) caused by either the technical failure or the administrative failure to implement patching, it's a constant reminder of this poor decision. It wasn't a hindsight thing. These are the obvious consequences of the choice they made. They were either myopic to the point of negligence or idiotic to the point of incompetence (and I refuse to believe it's the latter).

2) It's not whatsoever obvious that the Wii couldn't have been updated at some point in the past with a patching system. Again, amateur programmers have hacked on a generally functional patching system on top of the OS via Ocarina codes, Microsoft, Sony, Valve, and Apple have all majorly revised and/or expanded their patching architecture in the last 5 years.

I 100% agree that provided you move past the manifold ways that Nintendo screwed up on this, this is the most clever solution possible under the circumstances.



There isn't a single software company, in any discipline of software, with any budget, with any development length, with any software complexity from the lowest level database CRUD app to the most complicated pieces of software developed ever, who can "get it right in the first place". It simply isn't possible.

It wasn't possible 25 years ago, it isn't possible now. NES and SNES games frequently had serious issues, and had to be re-released to fix bugs. Some of the most critically acclaimed games of all time have serious unpatched bugs. Consider Final Fantasy VI, which has some 150+ unpatched bugs in the final version including serious problems that corrupt saves relatively easily and major battle system bugs that break the game in several key ways strategically.

It's important to have rigorous testing procedures and I have no idea if this specific bug should have been caught before release or not, but the idea that "they should just get it right" is silly. It's not going to happen.

I agree with your points regarding security.

However, regarding game bugs, you are quite losing the main point.

The real question is not what will happen if a game has a bug, it is, how many games will remain with a bug in the end. There are 'lots' of games on both 360 and PS3 full of unavoidable major bugs that may not ever get fixed, patches or not. Skyrim PS3 being a recent one.

I would say the case is not that Nintendo as very good at QA, because there are general few buggy games on the Wii and also there were few on the PS2.

It doesn't mean that I don't believe Nintendo should not implement patching in Wii U, however, that the developers on HD consoles became over reliant on patching, maybe because of the sudden change on the environment.
 

wsippel

Banned
Well, at least it's better than sending a SD Card with your save on it like they did for Other M.

Babysteps, but they will get there. Someday.

EDIT: Hum, the 3DS and it's games are patchable (though the Ridge Racer fix was through a firmware update). It also supports DLC.
3DS supposedly only supports real patches as of SDK 2.40 or something, released a few months ago.
 

Emitan

Member
«þ»;33637087 said:
Both CoD: BO and MW3 on Wii both got multiple patches, so clearly patching is possible, can someone explain how Treyarch did it and why Nintendo can't?

Because the game was specifically built to accommodate patching. Unlike almost every other modern gaming system you have to build patch functionality into the game itself and host the patches in your own servers.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
The real question is not what will happen if a game has a bug, it is, how many games will remain with a bug in the end. There are 'lots' of games on both 360 and PS3 full of unavoidable major bugs that may not ever get fixed, patches or not. Skyrim PS3 being a recent one.

I'm not going to spend time delving into whether or not it ought to be expected that huge open-world complex ARPGs with emergent NPC behaviour and object persistence will have bugs. I will say that all of them that have ever been released, back to the beginning of the genre, have had bugs. Daggerfall predated the widespread PC patch era, and it too was quite buggy on its original release. It's difficult to talk about this on Nintendo systems because so few games of the genre have ever even been released there.

If Nintendo wants to ensure dev/pub QA is robust, they should tackle that at the LotCheck level.

I can't tell you if devs rely on patching. I can tell you that every single game I own on Steam, hundreds of them, have probably been patched at least once, and the result is a much, much, much more vibrant ecosystem and one where the most serious and unpredicted problems are likely to be addressed--and not just for the purpose of fixing bugs, but also adding features, modes, or totally resculpting games to fix design flaws. The same is true of iOS, where updating your game 5-10 times is the norm, not the exception (and yes, some of those updates include bugfixes).
 
A handful of games I own on PC/Steam either don't even work or are borderline unplayable due to bugs, even after going through numerous updates. Lets not act like a system wide patching option guarantees that games for that system are less buggy on average. In fact, in my experience the exact opposite is true.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
A handful of games I own on PC/Steam either don't even work or are borderline unplayable due to bugs, even after going through numerous updates. Lets not act like a system wide patching option guarantees that games for that system are less buggy on average. In fact, in my experience the exact opposite is true.

Over 150 games on PC of varying age and quality and I've been able to play all of them.
Luckily it's only a "handful" for you, but honestly none for me.
 

Emitan

Member
The only games I own on Steam with issues are X-COM: UFO Defense (runs slowly), and Star Wars: Dark Forces (runs at an almost unplayable slow speed), but both of those are DOS games running in an emulator. No Steam game I own has any major issues and I own 200 games.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
A handful of games I own on PC/Steam either don't even work or are borderline unplayable due to bugs, even after going through numerous updates.

The obvious folly here is conflating or rather combining compatibility bugs (as in driver bugs, video card bugs, multi-threading or multi-core bugs, 16/32/64-bit bugs, etc which are a quirk of the changing PC world and lack of a central authority rather than the fault of any one developer or service), OS-application interoperability bugs (which could be the fault of either, but in the console world would be caught by TRC/TCR/LotCheck, while there is no central PC authority to catch them on PC) and in-game bugs (which are the fault of the dev/pub if they are inadequately patched). The only category of the three which is directly comparable on console, with patching or without, is the latter.

To give you an example of the second one--the first STALKER game has a known issue running on copies of Windows where the user's profile username has a non-alphanumeric character. My username has a non-alphanumeric character, and so I can't run it. On console, compliance with things like user profiles would be caught by cert processes. No such processes exist on PC. It is the developer's fault, but it doesn't translate to such a problem being more probable or possible on consoles because it would be caught at that level.

I was nice enough to name a dozen or so games with MAJOR, game-breaking bugs--either halting all progress, retail recalls, major systemic crashing, etc--in this thread. If you'd like to further discuss the PC/Steam issues, feel free to name the games so we can look at if your evidence supports your theory.
 

fernoca

Member
Nice alternative and better than the "send a SD card" thing with Other M.
Though weird that people laughed at the idea of "sending SD Cards again" when this big was reported; yet they create something (else) for those that don't want to send an SD; but still "they suck". Yeah it kinda does, but seeing the other alternatives/ on single player games on Wii; is not that bad.

In any case, as noted:
-Treyarch, High Voltage can do patches on Wii games because their games were built with that in mind...and the patches are downloaded only when you connect online to play multiplayer (even if the patch is to fix a bug in the campaign -like in Conduit 2-)

-3DS games can be patched, but not in the usual "put a game and download a patch". But, at the moment games need to be programmed to support Spotpass (and be on a wireless/wi-fi connection) and any notifications and downloads are stored in that saved file on the SD Card. (Games that don't support it won't be able to be "patched". Guess they'll enforce developers to add Spotpass to all games for cases like that; or add some system wide-option.)
 
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