When Gannon is prevented from being revived within that 100 year curse gap, you think it stops the curse? If we are going by the timeline standards, technically Ganon did come back in Zelda 2. He was alive in the game over screen. That's like a to be continued moment I bet.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Nintendo shows updated Zelda-timeline in Japanese Newsletter, puts left part on sale
- Thread starter Garou
- Start date
When Gannon is prevented from being revived within that 100 year curse gap, you think it stops the curse? If we are going by the timeline standards, technically Ganon did come back in Zelda 2. He was alive in the game over screen. That's like a to be continued moment I bet.
EatinOlives
Member
I understand the purpose of their timeline as it is and why they split things off the way they do. I'm saying it's a poor decision and doesn't do anything to scratch that "long multi-game narrative" itch. With a reboot they can continue to keep things simple and continue focusing on gameplay over narrative, but without the looming convoluted-ass timeline hanging over what should be straightforward stories.
I could imagine that they don't give a shit about continuity, but then they turn around and have a carefully-documented timeline where they fit every single game into this chronology, and then they keep changing and updating and retconning things. The amount of effort they put into this clearly communicates (at least to me) that they DO give a shit, but they feel compelled to include every game instead of dropping them or calling them non-canon. If they could just re-establish the timeline with Zelda WiiU as the center and then keep building off of that, it'll let them do the timeline documentation that they clearly want to do, without the baggage of having to fit in games that weren't built around having an official timeline. (there's a reason why they refused to talk about an official one for so long).
There's also the added benefit of easing new players in better, which I imagine they'd want to do since Zelda hasn't been a system-mover in a while. People seeing a timeline with literal alternate realities undoubtedly turns off at least some players from the whole thing, even if they know the story plays a backseat.
Having just finished Zelda 2 the other day I agree 100%. It fits with the new game being an open, empty world filled with monsters and scattered towns. I would love for them to revisit a world that is overrun with monsters and is actually dangerous to explore.
But it's probably going to end up being after Skyward Sword but before OoT. The giant mech monster in the teaser looks a lot like those Time Stone robots in SS.
It's such a simple and great way to do that but Nintendo would never make it official lol.
But in WW we are told that the Hero of Time didn't bring his Triforce with him
When "he left the land of Hyrule" (to go to Termina in another timeline) he didn't had the Triforce. Also in WW intro we are showed the Hero of Time travelling with Epona away from Hyrule (as in MM intro) leaving the Triforce behind
Technically the Triforce doesn't physically exist in the child timeline. TP!Ganondorf was also surprised to survive the Sages' execution: he didn't know he had the Triforce. TP!Link and TP!Ganondorf have their respective Triforce pieces because WW!Link and WW!Ganondorf do.
All games were marketed for what they were.
the timeline is the silver lining on top of it.
If you play the Oracle games, you're not playing them because it has Link from Alttp or LA.
You play it because 2 bad guys captured the princess and you want to save the land they're in, if you see what I mean.
There is no need for a reboot because they're basically putting the next game wherever they want in the timeline.
The can use all the forms of Ganon/dorf they want or whatever and it will change basically nothing.
From what we've seen of Zelda U, it can be ANYWHERE in the timeline except after WW.
We know next to nothing about Zelda U and we still have plenty of excitement for more info.
The timeline doesn't factor on whether or not someone wants to play Zelda U.
The timeline is an added layer for the fans to discuss the internal consistency of the franchise.
It's like discussing hidden easter eggs in Mario games, it makes for some nice brainstorming but it's not essential.
I'm on the team that they should never have revealed the official one, although they could branch out in any way they want later.
There's no strong continuity like in comics where you can't play the games in any order you want, you start where you want and the order in which you play them is really not important.
I think that is part of what I mean.
We know that OoT Link didn't keep the Triforce as WW Link has to get it again.
We know that Ganondorf sought the triforce but it awakened in him when he was gettting executed and sent to the twilight realm (I really need to replay I'm not sure if sending him away was what they wanted to do to begin with).
My hypothesis is that OoT Link before going back in time had the awakened courage triforce in him.
Going back in time he was still linked to the triforce, "the going back in time while having the triforce" shattered the triforce in Child timeline and put the respective pieces in the 3 chosen people waiting for being awakened.
Awakening happening in TP for all 3 pieces.
The entire timeline is silly. They just put something together because of fan pressure.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
That's a fun idea, but there's not really any actual evidence for it. All we know is that Ganondorf got it in a "divine prank," coulda just been his destiny, the Triforce moves in mysterious ways.
We know from other games that the triforce is physical AND mystical.
It's only shattered when someone impure touch it (btw at the end of WW why isn't the triforce shattered when the King touch it?).
Either someone touched it and the 2 other pieces scatter or some unprecedented event scattered the triforce.
2 ways :
- my theory 2 posts above
- Zelda actually touched the triforce when Ganondorf was getting executed, got the wisdom part and shattered the 2 other pieces offscreen.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Luckily it's not really a "timeline" like the right two branches, it's a "what-if" parallel universe. While Wind Waker and Twilight Princess take place in different timelines within the same canon due to a predicating event, the "failed hero" branch is paradoxical, you can only have it or the other two. It's no different than the "What if?" Marvel comics. Just an unfortunate in-universe attempt at explaining Nintendo's decision to create a new canon with Wind Waker (and arguably OOT).
DiipuSurotu
Banned
They don't have to reboot anything. They could just pick a spot in the timeline and put all the new games there instead of trying to connect with the old games.
Kind of like a "soft reboot", I guess.
Kind of like a "soft reboot", I guess.
When Link left the adult timline the Triforce of Courage in that timeline was broken into 8 pieces to be found in The Wind Waker.
When Link returns to being a child at the end of Ocarina of Time, he has the Triforce of Courage on his hand. The other 2 parts would have gone to Ganondorf and Zelda.
Twilight Princess Link receives the Triforce of Courage from being the descendant/reincarnation of the hero's spirit.
The Triforce of Wisdom would have been passed down through the royal family to the current Zelda.
Twilight Princess Ganondorf is left alone by Link and Zelda and never enters the Sacred Realm. Years later he's later executed for doing something terrible and its a surprise to everyone that he had the Triforce of Power within him all along (just as it was a surprise to adult Link towards the end of Ocarina of Time.) Ganondorf takes it as a sign from the gods, and the Sages call it a "divine prank".
- Nintendo Dream - Feb 2007
http://www.nindori.com/interview/154zelda/154int_02.html
http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1173582355
http://web.archive.org/web/20110611...om/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1173582355
Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he’d do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power…
After the King of Hyrule touches the Triforce at the end of The Wind Waker it breaks up into its 3 parts and flies away. Ganondorf, Zelda, and Link are still connected to it by their blinking crests during the final battle.
I don't know if you proved my theory or not but it seems I understood things correctly!
And that's where I show I didn't play WW in quite some time now
Good catch.
Still it's weird because it means that Ganondorf to really succeed in OoT Adult timeline had to pretty much extract the triforce if he didn't want to be bothered to fetch them everytime he wants to make a new wish...
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
We don't know that he had it since Link came back, he could've been granted it by the gods right then and there to prevent his death, as an assertion that "ganondorf is important, he must not die." Gods insights being beyond those of mortal men, etc.
Again, it's a nice story and you can infer this and that if you like, it was just never said one way or another.
If it's that the gods are really shitty.
they flooded Hyrule in 1 timeline and rescued the villain in another!
It's like they're rooting for Ganondorf and you're really there to foil the goddesses' will!
It's a bit too Deus Ex Machina for me.
The Power triforce being in him BECAUSE Link was sent back with his link to the Courage triforce thus shattering the balance in an ironic twist makes for a better story I'd say.
What's wrong with that? They said it was a direct sequel to ALBW just before TFH came out. The plot isn't very serious, but it's a great game that doesn't hurt anything.
The email would have been a mistake because the 3DS games always followed LA. LA is ALttP link and the 3DS games take place hundreds of years later.
Technology is all over the place. The civilization in the past had robots and shit and the robots in Zelda U look no fancier. They look like ancient ruins.
If I had to place Zelda U I would say that it's either another OoT prequel or takes place in the TP branch. The geography of the map is extremely similar to OoT and it features a bridge over Lake Hylia like TP. Nintendo is using TPHP as some kind of tie-in. Also, Nintendo hinted that the Happy Mask Salesman from Majora's Mask would appear in a future game with new masks. I imagine that's what amiibos will do in Zelda U.
Well, you see, the whole timeline thing got started by Zelda 2, which was a direct sequel to Zelda 1. Then the next game, ALttP was a prequel to the previous 2 games. You following here? They've ALWAYS been connected.
So then they made OoT as a prequel to ALttP with the intent of making a game based on ALttP's prologue. In OoT's ending it's very subtle, but they create the idea of the a split timeline by having young Link have the triforce in the very final cutscene.
Majora's Mask is a direct sequel to OoT. Takes place in the kid timeline.
The Gameboy games were said to be direct sequels to ALttP.
Then they made Wind Waker, and Nintendo starts talking about the split timeline before this game comes out. It didn't come from fans. The game is very heavy on the fact that it's a sequel to OoT.
Minish Cap is placed by Nintendo as a prequel to OoT before it is released.
Then Nintendo makes Twilight Princess and they said it takes place in the other timeline created by OoT's ending. In game story goes along with this.
Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to Wind Waker that begins with a recap of Wind Waker's story and Spirit Tracks is a sequel to PH and WW that takes place like 100 years later and has a character still alive from Wind Waker.
And then Nintendo makes Skyward Sword and places it as a prequel to OoT that tells the origin of the Master Sword.
A Link Between Worlds is an obvious sequel to A Link to the Past.
TriForce Heroes was placed as a direct sequel to ALBW.
That leaves Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures as the only games that Nintendo didn't tell us where they fit.
The ALttP line didn't really fit in anywhere due to WW and TP filling both splits from OoT and OoT never really worked as ALttP's prologue anyway, so in 2011 Nintendo created a 3rd branch to put ALttP in where everything made sense. They also put the Four Swords games in places.
But yeah. The idea that the games were all completely self-contained or retelling the same legend never fit with reality. Apart from 2 games every single game in the franchise has been marked officially by Nintendo as either a prequel or a sequel to another Zelda game.
Except for the part about Zelda touching the triforce. Link has the triforce in his hand when he meets Zelda for the first time in the new timeline at the end of OoT, which means that the triforce split as a result of him being sent back in time. What's neat about that scene is that it's evidence that Aonuma or someone was at least planning out ahead of time that they wanted a split timeline. Not necessarily they had the plots of future games decided on, that would be ridiculous, but they had this idea when they made OoT.
I'm pretty sure that part is never showed and implied (if even that).
Link goes back to the Temple of Time, Navi flies off, Link goes warning Zelda and The End.
There's not a line of text and the triforce certainly doesn't appear
HOLY CRAP, YOUNG LINK HAS THE TRIFORCE!
I know the ending by heart and finished the game more times than I care to count and I never noticed the triforce on his arm!
e: WTF DOES HE HAVE IT OR NOT
e2 : Ok he has it it's pretty clear
I know it's an emushot but it's consistent with OoT3D so it's pretty canon.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
I think that impure/unbalanced prophecy only applied to the first time it was touched in the Sacred Realm after it was put there. It stays together in SS and every game in the Downfall timeline. It was only in pieces in the original NES games because the King took it apart himself for its own protection when he was close to death. After Ganondorf's failure to get it in the Sacred Realm in OoT, every time the Triforce is used it either returns to its wielder or just sits there.
Young Link has it in the ending, and that's clearly on purpose. Young Link never has it in his hand except during the ending. And they started talking about the split timeline publicly between OoT and Wind Waker. So obviously the intent of that was to set up future Zelda games based on the split timeline idea. It's a pretty cool small detail that most people miss but has huge implications.
Well, in SS Link goes on his quest pretty much just to attain the qualities necessary to be worthy of touching the triforce without causing it to split. Link and Zelda have been shown capable of making wishes on it after going through an adventure. Link's quests usually involve proving himself in courage, wisdom, and power so he's usually balanced by the end. Ganon made a wish on it in ALttP and it stuck around. Ganon in OoT and the King in WW pretty much weren't pure enough, I guess.
It might just be a spell put on the triforce that only activate once the 1rst time after it was put there.
After all at the end of SS, Link has the triforce and keep it with him.
Similar to how at the end of Alttp Link has the triforce but by ALBW the triforce is hidden again.
You are probably correct.
You made me notice it so I'd say yeh you can miss it alright!
Nearly 20 years to get that detail!
I was going to go on a rant about how it's not there and everything but I decided to check anyway.
It's entirely intentional, the Link model is the same as the one you have when you last went into Adult timeline (I'm pretty sure you can have the deku shield in that cutscene for example).
And they added the triforce mark only adult link gets.
My assumption that this is why the triforce was split in child Timeline seems correct by extention, it either means 4 pieces of triforce in Child and 2 in Adult (but with WW we know that's not the case) or it means that there's now only 2 pieces in the Sacred Realm.
So the other pieces went where their rightful owners went and Ganondorf awakened it in his execution.
It's an inexplicable twist in-universe but we, the players, know why that is.
I'd add that we don't know the events that lead to Ganon's wish in Alttp, he may have grown enough to prove Courageous and Wise enough to not split the triforce in that timeline.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
I still think it holds. I don't think the King in WW was impure - it just went back to its wielders. The AoL manual states that it's passed down through generations of the royal family, not only remaining intact but being actively used to enrich the kingdom. My theory is that the forced split in OoT was a one time affair. Although I don't actually remember seeing the Triforce pieces on anyone's hands after the King makes his wish in WW and I can't find a pic of it. Is it really on there in the final battle? I might boot up WWHD and take a peek later today.
Speaking of, if true I think that's a choice that runs counter to a lot of WW's themes. I think after the wish the goddesses should have taken the Triforce away with them or something. I really need to watch that scene again...
No, my bet is that we are going to get is a whole new timeline branch from Skyward Sword that essentially reboots the Zelda canon since it takes place in a timeline where things went completely different from the beginning. The justification will the be the exact same one from OoT: endgame time travel creating two different outcomes. After all: Demise was killed in two different eras via two different methods. In the present of Skyward Sword, Demise was killed by the power of the assembled Triforce. However, Demise is then killed in one-on-one combat by Link, while still several thousand years in the past, by a weapon that was created in the present time. This obviously creates something of a contradiction. So you get two timelines: one where the people of Skyloft were separated from the surface for a few thousand years while The Imprisoned was sealed, and one where Demise was offed by a mysterious warrior pretty early on. Note that the spirit of Demise was sealed by the Master Sword, which returned to Link's time. So there might be a timeline where Ganon never exists in the first place.
Obviously, there are huge holes in this, but there are huge holes in the OoT split timeline theory too, and that didn't stop them from making the split timeline.
Ganondorf and Zelda having the Triforce pieces at the end of 1998's Ocarina of Time fits with the story of the game.
Near the end of Ocarina of Time, a plot twist has Zelda explaining that Ganondorf only recieved the Triforce of Power, and that Link had Courage all along, and that there's a rule for the Triforce splitting up.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/n64/197771-the-legend-of-zelda-ocarina-of-time/faqs/20240
Power, Wisdom and Courage.
If the heart of the one who holds
the sacred triangle has all three
forces in balance, that one will
gain the True Force to govern all.
But, if that one's heart is not in
balance, the Triforce will separate
into three parts:
Power, Wisdom and Courage.
Only one part will remain for the
one who touched the Triforce...the
part representing the force that
one most believes in.
If that one seeks the True Force,
that one must acquire the two
lost parts.
Those two parts will be held
within others chosen by destiny,
who will bear the Triforce mark
on the backs of their hands.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Link has the Triforce of Courage in the last scene of Ocarina of Time, then the plot point of how the Triforce splits up explains how Ganon and Zelda have Power and Wisdom in Twilight Princess.
In The Wind Waker, descendants of the Royal Family passed down a piece of the Triforce of Wisdom to Tetra and the King of Hyrule had the rest. Like the "downfall" timeline, Ganondorf obtains the Triforce by taking it from its chosen holders, Link and Zelda, and forms the complete Triforce, following up on the plot twist about the Triforce from Ocarina of Time. (but is stopped by the King of Hyrule)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's also heavily implied in Hyrule Historia
page 110
"Link bears the proof of his courage on the back of his hand. Because Ganondorf was sealed away along with the Triforce of Power, the rest of the Triforce remained in the chosen ones."
page 113
"The Ancient Sages performed the execution of Ganondrof in the Arbiter's Grounds. However, Ganondorf, who had been chosen by the Triforce of Power, did not perish, and managed to kill one of the Sages."
"The Ganondorf of this timeline is able to wield magic due to his possession of the Triforce of Power. However, since Link was able to war Princess Zelda of the future, Ganondorf did not enter the Sacred Realm or lay his hands on the completed Triforce. Link returning from the future bearing the Triforce of Courage made it so that Ganondorf was unable to consolidate the omnipotent power of the Triforce within himself."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aonuma talked about this without mentioning the Triforce
- Nintendo Dream - Feb 2007
http://www.nindori.com/interview/154...154int_02.html
http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?su...&id=1173582355
http://web.archive.org/web/201106111...&id=1173582355
Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time.
In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution.
It was decided that Ganon be executed because he’d do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power…
In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution.
It was decided that Ganon be executed because he’d do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power…
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Link comes back from the future, never pulls the Master Sword out of the pedestal to open the gate to the Sacred Realm, but already has the Triforce of Courage in the new child timeline. The plot twist about the Triforce splitting up in the game would mean Power and Wisdom would go to their chosen ones. Link warns Zelda and they leave Ganondorf alone until several years later when he's executed because he'd do something terrible, and its a surprise to everyone that Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power.
Wyndstryker
Member
They should call the dungeons palaces instead of temples. Then it's a true sequel in he zelda 2 line
Green Mamba
Member
The palaces in Zelda II are called temples in Japan.
Ryouji Gunblade
Member
I can say that I loved the timeline, until Triforce Heroes came in. No one deserves to age into Toon Link.
Skyward sword had a lot of (ancient) tech as well.
robots and time warping tech
And it's the first game in the timeline.
I still think Zelda U is placed a bit after skyward.
Red Mage
Member
This is how I feel. Especially since they have never revisited that realm. It's basically a huge middle finger to anyone who grew up with the series.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
A Link Between Worlds?
I mean, I agree it's just a middle finger anyways, a cop out, and a big reason to just not care about any timeline in this series, but they have revisited it, even if you don't count Triforce Heroes for whatever reason.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Alright so I just replayed/watched the last bit of Wind Waker specifically looking for Triforce marks after the king makes his wish, and I have to say, it's very inconsistent. Ganondorf seems to lose or gain his depending on the shot. Before he pulls out the swords there is a clear view of both of his hands, and there's no mark to be found. Then when Link is jumping into the air to give Ganondorf a new orifice his right hand has regained the mark. Zelda's seems pretty consistently in place, until she becomes Tetra again. Then it looks like it isn't there when they set sail after the credits. For the life of me I couldn't see Link's mark. There were several clear shots of his hand, such as when Zelda is propping him up after he has stabbed Ganondorf, and it's not there, even though Zelda's is. There's also a very clear shot of his hand as he's using it to reach for the King, but it's not there either. Once he's back on the surface the camera refuses to show his left hand, even in the after credits scene.
So it looks like the Zelda team wasn't interested in committing to anything with this last sequence regarding the marks, to the point where marks will appear and disappear at random. I guess we can file this one under "They didn't give a shit" along with the other inconsistencies in this thread.
EDIT: Crap, I didn't mean to post twice in a row, even if it's more than an hour later. My bad for not looking before hitting the Reply button.
Chezzymann
Member
I like to think of there being no timeline and all these games are just different incarnations of the same characters with occasional references to previous games cause this shit is as confusing as fuck
I dunno, I kind of put Spirit Tracks much further into the future since it has trains. Or that timeline is just advancing quicker because they're on a new land, rebuilding a country and finding new avenues of technology and magic.
I will never accept aLttP as hero loses lol. IMO there should be two branches: child and adult. Almost everything is in the adult timeline. I guess Zelda I&II after WW and its games is perhaps odd. IDK, whatever my headcanon is aLttP comes after a successful OoT.
I'm good with the MM & TP because that is like Link became a child, got lost in Termina, and didn't defeat Ganon but the sages managed to alternatively imprison Ganon. Really don't get why there are supposed to be two timelines where that ending happened.
I'm good with the MM & TP because that is like Link became a child, got lost in Termina, and didn't defeat Ganon but the sages managed to alternatively imprison Ganon. Really don't get why there are supposed to be two timelines where that ending happened.
Niko is still alive in Spirit Tracks, though.
Oh right, I forgot that little detail. So they're just advancing much faster than other timelines.
I think they just got the train technology from the native Locomo. Also, the gap in time between OoT and WW is probably larger than OoT and Twilight Princess or ALttP.
Given that Hyrule Warriors centered around time travel, its inevitable sequel is in a prime position to give a non-offensive reason for that third split.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I'm beginning to hate Miyamoto. Sticker Star wasn't the first time, it seems.
Astral Dog
Member
So many timelines
Four Sword Adventures place in the timeline has more to do with it being a sequel to the original Four Swords and needing space to exist than it does with coming after Twilight Princess. It's basically parallel to A Link to the Past, an alternate timeline, and features locations from ALttP and LoZ. (I originally thought it was a sequel to ALttP to bridge the gap with LoZ)
Aonuma on storytelling and Miyamoto upending the tea table on FSA's story.
- GDC 2004 - Eiji Aonuma Zelda Roundtable - 2004
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2180/gdc-2004-eiji-aonuma-zelda-roundtable
Q: So Eiji’s worked on a couple of Zelda games, and knows a thing or two about the franchise…he talked a lot in his presentation about Zeldaness and that sort of thing. What has he learned about storytelling?
Eiji Aonuma: Well, obviously there are a lot of games that other developers are making that have really in-depth stories. And I personally don’t know how they develop their stories. But the way that we do it is maybe somewhat different from what they do, in the sense that with Zelda, we don’t start off with a storyline and then build a game around it, we start off with a framework for the game, we create the game, and then we develop the storyline based on the type of game we’ve created. Obviously Zelda isn’t a story that exists already that we’re then taking and turning into games, it’s something that, essentially, the storylines evolves as we add new games in the series. And part of the reason that we do this is because if you start off with a story and try to turn that into a game, you essentially end up with some of the Aku, or impurities, that [chuckles]—basically, things don’t feel natural [since] you’re trying to make a game based on a story and you aren’t able to express everything the way you want to, whereas once you start with the game and build the story around that and you have your core framework, and then the story evolves based on what we’re doing with the game. Obviously, when it comes down to the reality of the Zelda series, it can be very important for us to try to go back and try to piece together all the pieces of the puzzle, and we’ve actually done that and put together a complete overall story at this point, but for us, the storyline in the Zelda series is really there to make the gameplay more interesting.
NOA: [To the translators.] Can you ask Mr. Aonuma to maybe expand on, he mentioned putting the framework of the game in first and maybe use an example from Four Swords or the Wind Waker shows how they started with the framework and turned it into a story?
EA: In an example with Four Swords Adventures, I was the producer on that game, so I didn’t actually put the story for that game together—that would be put together by the director of the game. And in the end on that game, as we got closer to finishing it, of course, Mr. Miyamoto then came in and upended the tea table, and we changed the story around quite a bit at the end with Four Swords Adventures. And what Mr. Miyamoto pointed out in the case of that game was that the storyline shouldn’t be something complicated that confuses the player. It should really be kind of a guideline that helps ease the player through the gameplay process and helps them understand what it is that they’re doing. So that was one example of how the gameplay was there first, and the storyline changed all the way up until the very end.
Aonuma on storytelling and Miyamoto upending the tea table on FSA's story.
- GDC 2004 - Eiji Aonuma Zelda Roundtable - 2004
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2180/gdc-2004-eiji-aonuma-zelda-roundtable
Q: So Eiji’s worked on a couple of Zelda games, and knows a thing or two about the franchise…he talked a lot in his presentation about Zeldaness and that sort of thing. What has he learned about storytelling?
Eiji Aonuma: Well, obviously there are a lot of games that other developers are making that have really in-depth stories. And I personally don’t know how they develop their stories. But the way that we do it is maybe somewhat different from what they do, in the sense that with Zelda, we don’t start off with a storyline and then build a game around it, we start off with a framework for the game, we create the game, and then we develop the storyline based on the type of game we’ve created. Obviously Zelda isn’t a story that exists already that we’re then taking and turning into games, it’s something that, essentially, the storylines evolves as we add new games in the series. And part of the reason that we do this is because if you start off with a story and try to turn that into a game, you essentially end up with some of the Aku, or impurities, that [chuckles]—basically, things don’t feel natural [since] you’re trying to make a game based on a story and you aren’t able to express everything the way you want to, whereas once you start with the game and build the story around that and you have your core framework, and then the story evolves based on what we’re doing with the game. Obviously, when it comes down to the reality of the Zelda series, it can be very important for us to try to go back and try to piece together all the pieces of the puzzle, and we’ve actually done that and put together a complete overall story at this point, but for us, the storyline in the Zelda series is really there to make the gameplay more interesting.
NOA: [To the translators.] Can you ask Mr. Aonuma to maybe expand on, he mentioned putting the framework of the game in first and maybe use an example from Four Swords or the Wind Waker shows how they started with the framework and turned it into a story?
EA: In an example with Four Swords Adventures, I was the producer on that game, so I didn’t actually put the story for that game together—that would be put together by the director of the game. And in the end on that game, as we got closer to finishing it, of course, Mr. Miyamoto then came in and upended the tea table, and we changed the story around quite a bit at the end with Four Swords Adventures. And what Mr. Miyamoto pointed out in the case of that game was that the storyline shouldn’t be something complicated that confuses the player. It should really be kind of a guideline that helps ease the player through the gameplay process and helps them understand what it is that they’re doing. So that was one example of how the gameplay was there first, and the storyline changed all the way up until the very end.
Why you say the entire? Skyward Sword => Ocarina of Time => Majoras Mask => Wind Waker/Twilight Princess (=> Phantom Hourglass => Spirit Tracks) is clearly there and it's great.
The rest is kinda bullshit, granted.
Like I said, in SS Link's quest brings him into harmony with the triforce. He gains courage, wisdom, and power from the 2nd set of dungeons. Each time he completes one a triforce symbol on his hand lights up and by the time he goes after the triforce all 3 are lit up. He also obtains all 3 triforces individually and assembles them. After he makes his wish it just chills there. Hyrule Historia says that Rauru, likely the same person as Gaepora or a descendant based on their names and appearances, built the Temple of Time based on the temple of hylia to hide the triforce and the master sword.
We actually do know the events that lead to Ganon's wish in ALttP. Ganon defeated Link and Zelda and obtained their triforces and made his wish. The sages, in a last-ditch effort, sealed him in the Sacred Realm. Time passed and people learned of the triforce in the Sacred Realm. People found portals to the Sacred Realm and all who left never returned. Then evil forces started pouring from the portals. The Imprisoning War broke out between Hyrule and the evil force pouring out from the Dark World, and the sages of that time sealed the portals to end it.
There aren't really any holes in the split timeline. Everything fits just fine.
Here is an interview from 2002 where Aonuma and Miyamoto first discussed the split timeline publicly: http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Split_Timeline#cite_note-0
Interviewer: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline? Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.
Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?
Aonuma: From the end.
Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a...
Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.
Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.
It's funny that even Miyamoto was on board and even had to remind Aonuma that OoT had 2 endings.
I don't think it really counts as a ret-con. They made OoT with the intent that it be the Imprisoning War from ALttP's prologue, but really the events of OoT have hardly any resemblance to the Imprisoning War. The Imprisoning War of ALttP didn't involve a Hero and Ganon never left the Dark World during it.
Neither of OoT's endings set up ALttP. ALttP begins with Ganon sealed in the Dark World with the complete triforce. The adult timeline ending has Ganon sealed in the Sacred Realm with the triforce of power and the child timeline ending has Ganon still on the loose also with just the triforce of power.
The solution they came up with explains how Ganon gets the complete triforce and how the Imprisoning War fits into everything. It keeps ALttP in the place it's always occupied in the timeline and undoes retconning that OoT did.
It's not that confusing. The games themselves often make continuity references to each other and with few exceptions every game since the first has been marketed as a sequel or prequel with a clear relationship to the other games.
This is a thing that bugs me. Spirit Tracks gets undue shit for having trains because they are considered too advanced technology.
The first steam-powered ship was created in 1783. The steam-powered locomotive was created in 1804 (21 years apart). Spirit Tracks takes place about 100 years after Phantom Hourglass (Niko is really old), which heavily features steamships. It makes sense that people with steamships would adapt to life on land by creating trains, especially since the tracks were already there. Plus games that take place earlier in the series have even more advanced technology. Majora's Mask features motorboats. Pretty much every Zelda game has ancient robots.
It's been split ever since OoT. It's not something they just made up in 2011. They've been pretty clear about how things fit together since OoT and they did a nice job clearing up the trouble spots with Hyrule Historia.
FSA would have never worked as the Imprisoning War, either. It has Ganon and 4 Links and no war. And Vaati is there! I know they originally planned for it to be a prequel to ALttP that explained how Ganon got the Trident of Power, but it would have just made things even more complicated.
shotgunbob04
Member
This Zelda timeline isn't the only Nintendo franchise timeline where newer games are farther back in the past than older games are. The Metroid Prime trilogy (plus Hunters) takes place in between Metroid and Metroid II, I believe.