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[daycru]

Leigh Alexander. I have an article written by my cat about the stock market if anyone is interested.

 

[TheFightingFish]

If only men could also be so lucky as to also not be featured as shallow, derivative action protagonists in Activision properties.

From the article though it really just sounds like Activision relies heavily on focus testing and trying to stay in lock step with current market trends, not that they have any anti-female agenda. Which pretty much means that groups like GAF that a. Are already aware of the market trends b. Play enough games to already be sick of the market trends and c. Due to a. and b. are longing to play something out of the ordinary are going to be groups that pretty much hate Activision for their approach. But they will probably still make money hand over fist as long as they can keep riding the wave of each trend and not staying on it for too long after the peak passes.

 

[theinfinityissue]

oh noes, somebody alert the harpies over at Jezebel.

In all seriousness, I think for the most part the reason why games with female leads don't make a ton of money is that not a whole lot of developers are chomping at the bit to create games with female leads in the first place. After huge flops like Beyond Good and Evil, it's probably seen as a huge risk in an industry which seems to be paralyzed with fear at the thought of taking any risks, period. If your game goes over a certain budget, it seems, it's gotta be pretty damn formulaic for it to get any backing.

With that said, I thought Bayonetta did pretty well? I think the really interesting question is can a game have a female lead without having it border on pornography.

 

[mollipen]

Actually, studies show that in games with character creation tools, such as online RPGs and the Sims, men aren't afraid to play as a female avatar. Some male players are likely to have more female characters than male on their MMO account since they like the 'look' of the women better. Female players, on the other hand, rarely play as male characters since they find it weird and the male characters aren't attractive.

Oh yeah, totally; my point though was that a character creator allows those people who are scared off because of a main character to play a game they may otherwise avoid. Hell, I remember the insane uproar that happened among some when it was show that - gasp - black male was going to be the main character of a GTA game.

I mean, part of me says "screw those people, stick to your guns and make the main character that should be made, even if some people may be turned off by them." But then I remember how turned off I am by big bald space marines and gung-ho manly man characters, and how in those cases I'd much rather enjoy the game with my own creation. So, again, more often than not, character creation should be the norm.

 

[badcrumble]

Looks like a slight hint of feminism is the one thing it takes to get half of GAF leaping to Activision's defense.

Pathetic.

 

[Jex]

I don't think they know how to make male characters that aren't "badass" either.

There's certainly bad charactisation for both genders.

Although this article only focuses on the gender, not the quality of the character, of course.

 

[Htown]

calling BS on activision's claim that they don't interfere with their game designers

 

[Deleted member 47027]

There's certainly bad charactisation for both genders.

Although this article only focuses on the gender, not the quality of the character, of course.

I think that's the problem. There's no issue with the gender at all. It's about the quality of characters and how they're written. That's the real sin.

 

[Oxymoron]

take your pic.

Valve has been pretty awesome at including female characters that aren't a caricature. Alyx, GladOS and Shell, the diverse L4D cast. Nobody's saying that there's nobody getting it right, but it's far from the rule.

 

[Green Biker Dude]

The only female leads that tend to sell to dudebro gamers these days are ones like Lara Croft, or as busty ensemble members in JRPGs or fighters.

I wish there were more leads like Jade from BG&E or Faith from Mirror's Edge; they were great characters. Cate Archer from NOLF was awesome, too.

dudebros don't play jrpgs or fighters outside street fighter/mortal kombat to begin with. and they're definitely not playing those fighters for the tits either way

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I hate Activision but I hate this Alexander chick even more. I guess I know which side I'm taking.

 

[Jex]

You know, it might have been poor judgement for Leigh Alexander to get on that podcast smashed as she was, but I'd really hate if it were me, and people used laughing at some dumb shit I said when I was drunk as a substitute for engaging my arguments and points of view.

Indeed. It's just a lazy way to argue.

And I'm not even a big fan of the writer, I just thought it was a reasonably interesting article.

Then again, coming from Activision, it's not surprising in the least.

 

[harSon]

It's a perfectly legitimate criticism and something that I'd love to see change about the industry.

I honestly don't get why people get so vocal whenever someone mentions the fact that a particular demographic is relatively marginalized or misrepresented within an industry....

 

[Nirolak]

A woman.

Covering games.

Worse than that: she's a feminist, and would like to see games have a lot less testerony "hells ya, brah" bullshit, and explore more different themes and characterisation.

You can probably see why a certain segment of GAF feels threatened by her.

You know, it might have been poor judgement for Leigh Alexander to get on that podcast smashed as she was, but I'd really hate if it were me, and people used laughing at some dumb shit I said when I was drunk as a substitute for engaging my arguments and points of view.



No one in the industry knows how to make female leads that aren't cookie cutter tough girl. That can change.

You seem to be going on some kind of tangential rant implying that all guys are machismo knuckleheads.

It's really ignorant and offensive.

 

[Gravijah]

I hate Activision but I hate this Alexander chick even more. I guess I know which side I'm taking.

Either way, you're gonna get fucked in the ass.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Does that really matter? Female heroes are totally underrepresented and I would like to see that change. Diversity is pretty cool.

How about a female hero that isn't overly sexualized? What a concept!

 

[badcrumble]

How about a female hero that isn't overly sexualized? What a concept!

Worked pretty well in Silent Hill 3, Mirror's Edge, and BG&E, imo. Alyx is great too even if she's a companion and not playable.

 

[thebaroness]

I can't believe anyone would be surprised that this is how PR people of any company would be, especially Activision. They just want to make games that sell.

I wrote an article for Gamegirl a while back. It's not the best written thing ever, I know I'm a shitty writer, and I don't even begin to consider myself a journalist, but it express my opinion on the matter.

http://gamegirl.blogfaction.com/article/110539/games-have-matured-in-a-large-way/

Yeah, it sucks that ALOT of games don't star women, or different races of that matter. But their are still good examples being made all the time outside of mainstream. I believe progress is happening and that we don't need to constantly whine about misogyny.

 

[John]

I think it's odd that she never mentions the relationship between the demographic of game protagonists and the demographic of game developers.

 

[Cataferal]

Ironically, when I do think of major female videogame characters, I realise very few appear without some fire-arm or another. These were the first names to spring to mind:

Samus Aran
Lightning
Yuna
Elena Fisher
Lara Croft
Bayonetta

It's all still a part of the male agenda as far as gaming iconogrophy is concerned. Perhaps the argument should be that there aren't enough big-budget, "core" games designed from the roots up for women, featuring ideas that appeal to women? Changing the gender of the main character won't make Activision seem any more universal in my eyes.

 

[badcrumble]

I can't believe anyone would be surprised that this is how PR people of any company would be, especially Activision. They just want to make games that sell.

I wrote an article for Gamegirl a while back. It's not the best written thing ever, I know I'm a shitty writer, and I don't even begin to consider myself a journalist, but it express my opinion on the matter.

http://gamegirl.blogfaction.com/article/110539/games-have-matured-in-a-large-way/

Yeah, it sucks that ALOT of games don't star women, or different races of that matter. But their are still good examples being made all the time outside of mainstream. I believe progress is happening and that we don't need to constantly whine about misogyny.

On the contrary, I think there needs to be a vocal demand for female protagonists or they won't happen.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Leigh Alexander. I have an article written by my cat about the stock market if anyone is interested.

Okay. Post it in the OT.

 

[Jex]

I can't believe anyone would be surprised that this is how PR people of any company would be, especially Activision. They just want to make games that sell.

Yep, it's not surprising in the least, but it is useful to have sources that worked with a major publisher explain some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes.

Also, the article itself wasn't massively preachy so I hoped to avoid some kind of epic-derailment.

 

[Gravijah]

Ironically, when I do think of major female videogame characters, I realise very few appear without some fire-arm or another. These were the first names to spring to mind:

Samus Aran
Lightning
Yuna
Elena Fisher
Lara Croft
Bayonetta

It's all still a part of the male agenda as far as gaming iconogrophy is concerned. Perhaps the argument should be that there aren't enough big-budget, "core" games designed from the roots up for women, featuring ideas that appeal to women? Changing the gender of the main character won't make Activision seem any more universal in my eyes.

How many video game characters period can you name that don't have a weapon? Not as many as you could name that do have weapons.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Alyx is great too even if she's a companion and not playable.

I disagree with that because while they did not overtly sexualize her (aside from wearing awfully tight pants, which in and of itself is not damning) they have that ridiculous love subplot where she falls in love with someone who's never spoken to her, immediately making most players think of her in all sorts of filthy, filthy ways.

If there was no 'love subplot' then I wouldn't feel that way about her at all and she would be a strong supporting character.

I could be wrong though!

 

[mollipen]

Worked pretty well in Silent Hill 3, Mirror's Edge, and BG&E, imo. Alyx is great too even if she's a companion and not playable.

Except that Heather (from SH3) was a failure as a female character.

 

[Kandrick]

Worked pretty well in Silent Hill 3, Mirror's Edge, and BG&E, imo.

Maybe, but two of them sold poorly. Its not helping the female lead case.

 

[dimb]

Mainly because it's dealing with reports from "sources" at Activision, about Activsion games, and Activision business practice. Practices, not unique to Activision of course, but this article actually deals with specific games from that publisher.

So no, it had to be about Activision.

While I understand that aspect to it the article just draws too many conclusions. This is the definition of yellow journalism.

The article makes it sound like Activision canned the project because the main protagonist of Black Lotus was female. This in itself is stupid. Had that been the issue they would have pulled a gender swap on the leading character and called it a day.

You can't complain that a new game with a new direction has a different gendered protagainst, especially given the switch of themes from assassin's to cops. True Crime games are cop/detective games. Having male protagonists in that genre is exceedingly popular across all mediums. The article itself blames Activision for not keeping the same main character despite painting True Crime as a completely new game.

It is creating a story out of nothing to take a shot at Activision while drawing unearned praise to other companies.

 

[badcrumble]

Except that Heather (from SH3) was a failure as a female character.

Uh, what makes you say that, exactly? She's easily my favorite Silent Hill protagonist even if I prefer SH2 overall.

 

[Oxymoron]

You seem to be going on some kind of tangential rant implying that all guys are machismo knuckleheads.

It's really ignorant and offensive.

That's certainly not what I meant to communicate. A lot of GAF is that way, and the way they're attacking Leigh instead of actually trying to read and engage and see her point of view speaks to that.

Developers, though, is more complex. People tend to associate with people who resemble them, and that tends to be a self-perpetuating thing. I think a lot of developers are just so institutionally dominated by males (and often white ones) that coming up with a more diverse cast of characters simply doesn't come naturally. That's a fault of the hiring process, sure, but again, you're more likely to hire someone if you "clicked" with them during the interview, and that includes sharing cultural touchstones, opinions, and yes, skin colour and gender. To break through that, you need to make an actual effort to seek out diversity, both during the hiring process and in encouraging a more diverse group of people to think about making games, which is where I think the industry is failing.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

On the contrary, I think there needs to be a vocal demand for female protagonists or they won't happen.

I know it appears I'm calling you out and it's totally not my intent, I promise. But if there was a need for female protagonists, it'd happen organically instead of a call to arms. So I would think, at least. When it comes to people doing the call to arms it is usually trying to force overrepresentation of something underrepresented, without validity. Argh, I'm pissing MYSELF off the more I talk about this. I'm sorry.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Well there goes the thread...

Yeah, it's kind of a shame, because she's certainly right to shine some light on this.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

A woman.

Covering games.

Worse than that: she's a feminist, and would like to see games have a lot less testerony "hells ya, brah" bullshit, and explore more different themes and characterisation.

You can probably see why a certain segment of GAF feels threatened by her.

Didn't she also love Bayonetta and the themes in that game?

 

[Jex]

The article makes it sound like Activision canned the project because the main protagonist of Black Lotus was female. This in itself is stupid. Had that been the issue they would have pulled a gender swap on the leading character and called it a day.

You can't complain that a new game with a new direction has a different gendered protagainst, especially given the switch of themes from assassin's to cops. True Crime games are cop/detective games. Having male protagonists in that genre is exceedingly popular across all mediums. The article itself blames Activision for not keeping the same main character despite painting True Crime as a completely new game.

When the third installment in Luxoflux's True Crime series was first conceived at Treyarch it wasn't intended to be part of that franchise at all.

Instead, it was first pitched as an entirely different project: 'Black Lotus', inspired by Hong Kong action-cinema and featuring an Asian female assassin as the player character (for evidence, check the LinkedIn profile of former EP Chris Archer, who lists "Black Lotus (Canceled - Reformed as True Crime: Hong Kong" among his professional credits).

One individual, a former employee, tells us that the original concept for Black Lotus' protagonist had been modeled on actress Lucy Liu, whose action-heroine roles in films like Charlie's Angels and Kill Bill formed the basic inspiration. "Black Lotus was a great project internally," says the source. "We were all very proud of what we were trying to make and the team was excited. We made great progress."

But 2007 was a year when the top sellers on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 included Halo 3, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Assassin's Creed and Madden NFL -- and the conclusion Activision took from that was that there was no room on the market for games starring a female main character. Another former employee with knowledge of the situation explains: "We were all on board, and then Activision killed it, said they don't do female characters because they don't sell."

"Activision gave us specific direction to lose the chick," says the other source plainly.

The project was ultimately resurrected as True Crime: Hong Kong, and found a home at United Front games. There, it has a far different shape; it might as well be a new project. But its past life as Treyarch's much-loved Black Lotus is an important example of how Activision's strong idea of a focus testing-driven "formula" for top-selling games frustrates its studios and hampers creativity, the sources say.

.

 

[jkanownik]

Has anyone that ever worked at a large consumer products company not run into this?

Really poorly handled story. I expect things like this from Kotaku, but I expect more from Gamasutra. Done correctly it should have been a series of stories. Unbiased sources are usually a good thing to use as well.

 

[Azih]

Lara Croft, Mirror's edge, and informal twitter poll aren't very compelling arguments OP article writer!

 

[erpg]

I wish games had more leads like Leigh Alexander.

 

[Complex Shadow]

I disagree with that because while they did not overtly sexualize her (aside from wearing awfully tight pants, which in and of itself is not damning) they have that ridiculous love subplot where she falls in love with someone who's never spoken to her, immediately making most players think of her in all sorts of filthy, filthy ways.

If there was no 'love subplot' then I wouldn't feel that way about her at all and she would be a strong supporting character.

I could be wrong though!

i call bullshit. seriously how would you know this? (if real) WHY do you know this?

I wish games had more leads like Leigh Alexander.

***SPOILER***

you fight bobby kotic at the end.

 

[thebaroness]

I hate Activision but I hate this Alexander chick even more. I guess I know which side I'm taking.

*sigh* see that's what irks me about her. She makes people jump on and hate any female who plays games and wants to talk about them intelligently because her discussion always lead to whining about feminine inequality.

We're women, and we like games, period. Stop making it the biggest issue. I find the lack of racial diversity more offensive. I'd like to see more exotic main characters.

 

[Fantastical]

Yeah I want to see dat ass when I'm playing a game.

This reminds me of something that irked me about Mass Effect 2. I remember talking to Miranda, and she was

Spoiler

worried about her sister who could be in danger

and the camera swooped around her back to show her ass. It was completely tacky and ruined the tone of the scene. I liked how they characterized her before too, and that scene was just LOL LOOK AT HER ASS. It was completely the wrong scene to do that in.

 

[george_us]

I don't think there's enough evidence this generation to conclude either way in my opinion. Pretty much every game this generation starring a female protagonist has had other factors working against it, such as iffy quality. Bayonetta bucks this trend by being both amazing and selling well.

 

[Nirolak]

Ironically, when I do think of major female videogame characters, I realise very few appear without some fire-arm or another. These were the first names to spring to mind:

Samus Aran
Lightning
Yuna
Elena Fisher
Lara Croft
Bayonetta

It's all still a part of the male agenda as far as gaming iconogrophy is concerned. Perhaps the argument should be that there aren't enough big-budget, "core" games designed from the roots up for women, featuring ideas that appeal to women? Changing the gender of the main character won't make Activision seem any more universal in my eyes.

This here is implying the Ubisoft assumption that what male gamers want are games about shooting and stabbing things and female gamers want are stereotypically female things.

The real issue this article is addressing is that among the group of people as a whole that like games about shooting and stabbing things, there isn't much of an outreach made to include more female protagonists for the those in the demographic that would want them.

The problem you're highlighting is slightly different. For example, we have a vast lack of murder mystery and detective games, and while those are stereotypically things that appeal to women, you can also find millions of men out there who like such things. If we were to start making tons of murder mysteries only starring women, we would be engineering a similar problem to the one being addressed in this article from the reverse perspective.

 

[dimb]

.

But where does that conclusion come from? There is no citation beyond the whining of a scorned developer, but the reasoning makes no sense. Would we really assume that Activision would outright cancel a project, flushing their investment, for the sole reason that the lead character was female?

I just don't buy into this.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Either way, you're gonna get fucked in the ass.

:lol :lol

 

[Scotch]

Dumb feminist is being dumb.

95% of the people who play action games are men. Publishers like to make money. Deal with it.

 

[badcrumble]

"Sexism in games is a nonissue stop bringing it up!!!!" - sexists

 

[mollipen]

Uh, what makes you say that, exactly? She's easily my favorite Silent Hill protagonist even if I prefer SH2 overall.

Because she's the epitome of a bad female video game character: a character who, for all intents and purposes, is a male character put into a female character model for shock/gimmick/laziness/etc.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

i call bullshit. seriously how would you know this? (if real) WHY do you know this?

It's just me musing about it, but I think suggesting that there's any kind of love usually would send peoples' minds ballistic. I guess if you want to see if there's any fanfiction out there or how many people think she's ball-bustingly hot, or filthy fanart, I'd wager she's one of the top subjects for that kind of thing.

Just guessing, really, but I certainly think it's the case. If I'm wrong I'm wrong :lol

 

[Gravijah]

*sigh* see that's what irks me about her. She makes people jump on and hate any female who plays games and wants to talk about them intelligently because her discussion always lead to whining about feminine inequality.

We're women, and we like games, period. Stop making it the biggest issue. I find the lack of racial diversity more offensive. I'd like to see more exotic main characters.

From what little I know of her, I dislike her. She doesn't have any kind of effect on my views of anyone else but her.

 

[Jex]

Retarded feminist is being retarded.

95% of the people who play action games are men. Publishers like to make money. Deal with it.

Facts are tasty. Where does this one come from?