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[pslong009]

You can't complain that a new game with a new direction has a different gendered protagainst, especially given the switch of themes from assassin's to cops. True Crime games are cop/detective games. Having male protagonists in that genre is exceedingly popular across all mediums. The article itself blames Activision for not keeping the same main character despite painting True Crime as a completely new game.
.

Yep, Kyra Segwick on The Closer, Mariska Hargitay on Law & Order: SVU, and Marg Helgenberger on CSI aren't popular at all. Nope. Not at all.

 

[Fio]

I don't know a single film specifically targeted at females in which the protagonist is some kind of big man who likes blowing shit up and killing people. Time to complain, manhood is being discriminated!!!

 

[Mudkips]

take your pic.

I'm Bill or I'm nothing.

 

[thebaroness]

I know it appears I'm calling you out and it's totally not my intent, I promise. But if there was a need for female protagonists, it'd happen organically instead of a call to arms. So I would think, at least. When it comes to people doing the call to arms it is usually trying to force overrepresentation of something underrepresented, without validity. Argh, I'm pissing MYSELF off the more I talk about this. I'm sorry.

Yes thank you, that's kind of my point. It will happen, and it IS happening organically, without a need for an army of angry feminist voices to arise.

 

[Scotch]

Facts are tasty. Where does this one come from?

Out of my ass, and it's still probably pretty accurate. I work in a game store, and with titles like Modern Warfare it's closer to 99%.

 

[badcrumble]

Because she's the epitome of a bad female video game character: a character who, for all intents and purposes, is a male character put into a female character model for shock/gimmick/laziness/etc.

If you don't understand just how much of SH3 revolves thematically around the fact that she's female then I wonder if you even played the game.

Are you saying she's basically a male character because she doesn't have tits and ass busting out everywhere or because she's not constantly squealing and acting like some bizarre parody of 'femininity'? Please, tell me what's masculine about Heather.



edit: what are you people talking about, good things generally DO require a call to arms in order to happen unless you think that things like the civil rights movement happened 'organically' and on their own

 

[2San]

Can I cry outrage as well? I mean how many asian(think India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.) characters are there let alone main characters. :O

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Because she's the epitome of a bad female video game character: a character who, for all intents and purposes, is a male character put into a female character model for shock/gimmick/laziness/etc.

Explain.

 

[Gravijah]

Out of my ass, and it's still probably pretty accurate. I work in a game store, and with titles like Modern Warfare it's closer to 99%.

He works in a game store, people!

 

[SirPenguin]

I declare that an illegal amount of female heroes

 

[dimb]

Yep, Kyra Segwick on The Closer, Mariska Hargitay on Law & Order: SVU, and Marg Helgenberger on CSI aren't popular at all. Nope. Not at all.

You're listing crime dramas, not crime action.

I would be genuinely surprised if True Crime had players sifting through evidence to take to court.

 

[Jex]

But where does that conclusion come from? [/B]There is no citation beyond the whining of a scorned developer, but the reasoning makes no sense. Would we really assume that Activision would outright cancel a project, flushing their investment, for the sole reason that the lead character was female?

I just don't buy into this.

From her sources? Which, may indeed, be biased.

Big publishers can afford to ditch a project if they feel it's not going to succeed. Blizzard has certainly done this before.

Also you could theorize that work has been done and the story was largely based from a female perspective or, just as easily, they were just starting production so cancelling wasn't a big deal.

I find it interesting that you look through the information with such an extremely sceptical lens, that's all. As if you're trying to wrangle some fairly simple information as far as possible to draw the most negative conclusions.

He works in a game store, people!

Well damn.

And Call of Duty also = all action games.

 

[Davidion]

He works in a game store, people!

:lol

 

[Complex Shadow]

It's just me musing about it, but I think suggesting that there's any kind of love usually would send peoples' minds ballistic. I guess if you want to see if there's any fanfiction out there or how many people think she's ball-bustingly hot, or filthy fanart, I'd wager she's one of the top subjects for that kind of thing.

Just guessing, really, but I certainly think it's the case. If I'm wrong I'm wrong :lol

there is fanfinction for many characters you just can't single out half life because you THINK you know. i mean like what about samus

 

[Deleted member 47027]

edit: what are you people talking about, good things generally DO require a call to arms in order to happen unless you think that things like the civil rights movement happened 'organically' and on their own

I understand what you mean but I don't think the two kinds of things can really be compared based on how severe the situation was with the civil rights movement as compared to video games. I understand the overlying theme is the same and you've communicated that fine, but I just don't think it can be compared with such broad strokes.

I can't think of any examples without sounding offensive to someone.

 

[Nirolak]

That's certainly not what I meant to communicate. A lot of GAF is that way, and the way they're attacking Leigh instead of actually trying to read and engage and see her point of view speaks to that.

Developers, though, is more complex. People tend to associate with people who resemble them, and that tends to be a self-perpetuating thing. I think a lot of developers are just so institutionally dominated by males (and often white ones) that coming up with a more diverse cast of characters simply doesn't come naturally. That's a fault of the hiring process, sure, but again, you're more likely to hire someone if you "clicked" with them during the interview, and that includes sharing cultural touchstones, opinions, and yes, skin colour and gender. To break through that, you need to make an actual effort to seek out diversity, both during the hiring process and in encouraging a more diverse group of people to think about making games, which is where I think the industry is failing.

I think the thing here though is that the article is stating that there are lots of male developers out there who *do* want to make games with female characters, but their bosses aren't letting them for fear of their products selling poorly.

Two of the best written, non-tough-girl female protagonists in gaming are written by a guy named Ragnar Tornquist. However, the reason he was allowed to do this was because the budget of his game was especially small.

However, we do actually see a fairly large amount of diversity in the few companies that are allowed to make female protagonists. For example, BioWare has lots of female writers, but we still get compelling female characters out of them that are written by men as well.

I don't think we should make the assumption that just because the people writing female characters are sometimes men that they are unable to make them compelling, interesting, and diverse. This seems silly to me and in opposition to the point the article is trying to make, which is that many developers simply aren't allowed to every try.

 

[Scotch]

He works in a game store, people!

What, so you think otherwise? Where would you base that on?

Yes, my evidence is completely anecdotal but I get a more complete picture of the whole gaming populace than most people here. I'm not trying to sound like an expert with my 'game store' stuff, but if you or Jexhuis think that a significant fraction of action gamers are girls, you're wrong.

 

[erpg]

"Majority of gamers are guys"

Oh, okay, that sounds reasonable.

"Majority of gamers are guys, and that's why we have male leads"

Whoa whoa whoa, where's your proof, buddy?

 

[Fantastical]

Out of my ass

I believe that's Leigh Alexander's source as well.

Spoiler

I actually do think this is a good article despite my dislike for the author. And I don't dislike her because she's feminist like some people like to say.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I bet Boston has something to do with this

 

[harSon]

*sigh* see that's what irks me about her. She makes people jump on and hate any female who plays games and wants to talk about them intelligently because her discussion always lead to whining about feminine inequality.

We're women, and we like games, period. Stop making it the biggest issue. I find the lack of racial diversity more offensive. I'd like to see more exotic main characters.

I personally find the fact that people consider the constant shedding of light on the under- (and mis)representation of certain demographics to merely be some form of complaining, to be quite offense in itself.

How often do we hear about the underrepresentation and misrepresentation of females and non-white people in video games, television and movies? To be perfectly honest, not all that much. But whenever it is brought up, people seem to discount the person's viewpoints on the grounds of bellyaching. There's nothing more infuriating than to be told to 'live with it' in response to the before mentioned social issues.

As for something else that bothers me, the industry being dominated by white and Japanese males is certainly an underlying reason for why things are the way they are, but it's by no means a justification.

 

[thebaroness]

From what little I know of her, I dislike her. She doesn't have any kind of effect on my views of anyone else but her.

I thank you for that viewpoint, but for most people it isn't the case. Most are hateful It's "wow this bitch got drunk on a podcast, all women who play games games must be that dumb."

edit: what are you people talking about, good things generally DO require a call to arms in order to happen unless you think that things like the civil rights movement happened 'organically' and on their own

This isn't the civil rights movement, and woman are certainly NOT being oppressed like they were in previous generations. We're talking about popular media and who they're targeted towards. I'm not going to start more lists of positive female characters, but there are many, they're just not in the spotlight. Again, like I said before the lack of racial diversity is more offensive than the lack of sex diversity.

That is my opinion, as a woman since you seem to think my chill attitude IS being sexist.

 

[Nirolak]

Because she's the epitome of a bad female video game character: a character who, for all intents and purposes, is a male character put into a female character model for shock/gimmick/laziness/etc.

My female character isn't acting like an extremely stereotyped female. They're totally male!!!!

This viewpoint is by far the most sexist thing I see every time these arguments come up.

 

[badcrumble]

"Majority of gamers are guys"

Oh, okay, that sounds reasonable.

"Majority of gamers are guys, and that's why we have male leads"

Whoa whoa whoa, where's your proof, buddy?

The majority of gamers are guys because there are few to no protagonists with whom female gamers can identify.

 

[Jex]

Yes, my evidence is completely anecdotal but I get a more complete picture of the whole gaming populace than most people here. I'm not trying to sound like an expert with my 'game store' stuff, but if you or Jexhuis think that a significant fraction of action gamers are girls, you're wrong.

But it's not about that.

Dumb feminist is being dumb.

95% of the people who play action games are men. Publishers like to make money. Deal with it.

The article isn't even about girl gamers or guy gamers.

Neither is it about the role of females in videogames.

It's only about how well one publisher thinks games with a female lead will sell. To everybody.

Once again, reading the article will help.

 

[luxarific]

On the contrary, I think there needs to be a vocal demand for female protagonists or they won't happen.

This. I can't believe people are getting annoyed with Leigh Alexander for writing about this issue. "If we don't talk about it it's more likely to happen!" Yeah, ok.

 

[faceless007]

Amazing. If it comes down to Activision vs. Leigh Alexander, a substantial chunk of GAF will leap to the defense of Activision, for Alexander has apparently committed the unforgivable sins of:

1) Being a feminist
2) Being a (supposedly?) crappy writer
3) Getting drunk once and saying something stupid.

Clearly that makes everything she says invalid.

 

[Gravijah]

I thank you for that viewpoint, but for most people it isn't the case. Most are hateful It's "wow this bitch got drunk on a podcast, all women who play games games must be that dumb."

Ignorant people are ignorant, idiots are idiots. Not much you can since neither groups like to listen.

 

[2San]

The majority of gamers are guys because there are few to no protagonists with whom female gamers can identify.

Do you play games, because you identify with the main character? And you identify with the main character because he's male?

I'm more of the school that boys and girls like different things in general.

 

[badcrumble]

This isn't the civil rights movement, and woman are certainly NOT being oppressed like they were in previous generations. We're talking about popular media and who they're targeted towards. I'm not going to start more lists of positive female characters, but there are many, they're just not in the spotlight. Again, like I said before the lack of racial diversity is more offensive than the lack of sex diversity.

That is my opinion, as a woman since you seem to think my chill attitude IS being sexist.

I think I can bring up the civil rights movement without being interpreted as saying that this is somehow as bad as racial segregation; obviously that's not the case, but that doesn't mean it was a bad example for what I was talking about.

And women are perfectly capable of being extraordinarily sexist, not that I'm accusing you of this. I don't think you can particularly separate the issues of lack of racial diversity and the lack of sex diversity; games with human or humanoid protagonists are all too frequently straight white male power fantasies and their audience gets upset when asked to identify with someone other than murderous white linebackers.

Do you play games, because you identify with the main character? And you identify with the main character because he's male?

I'm more of the school that boys and girls like different things in general.

I don't play games to identify with the protagonist, but lord knows I've seen plenty of bitching from gamers when they think the protagonist of a game is too female and/or faggy and therefore doesn't fit the bizarre male-power fantasy that they're interested in.

 

[thebaroness]

I personally find the fact that people consider the constant shedding of light on the under- (and mis)representation of certain demographics to merely be some form of complaining, to be quite offense in itself.

How often do we hear about the underrepresentation and misrepresentation of females and non-white people in video games, television and movies? To be perfectly honest, not all that much. But whenever it is brought up, people seem to discount the person's viewpoints on the grounds of bellyaching. There's nothing more infuriating than to be told to 'live with it' in response to the before mentioned social issues.

As for something else that bothers me, the industry being dominated by white and Japanese males is certainly an underlying reason for why things are the way they are, but it's by no means a justification.

I didn't say it should never be discussed, but when it's brought up so often it can't be see as anything other than whining. If Lara were the ONLY female lead I would be one of the angry voices, but there isn't a lot to complain about. I'm trying to say there IS diversity, people just have to play better games.

I mean, have any of you played Aquaria? Spectacular game, with a fantastic female lead.

 

[Scotch]

But the article isn't even about girl gamers or guy gamers.

Neither is it about the role of females in videogames.

It's only about how well one publisher thinks games with a female lead will sell. To everybody.

Well okay, true. Let me then just say that I think publishers are right in thinking that games with male leads have a better chance of selling well, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Amazing. If it comes down to Activision vs. Leigh Alexander, a substantial chunk of GAF will leap to the defense of Activision, for Alexander has apparently committed the unforgivable sins of:

1) Being a feminist
2) Being a (supposedly?) crappy writer
3) Getting drunk once and saying something stupid.

Clearly that makes everything she says invalid.

Everyone has gotten hammered and said obnoxious shit but if I did so on an industry podcast related to my job on which i was representing my company, I would be fired and rightfully so. To me its just indicative of a industry that hasnt grown up enough to expect professionalism from its peers

 

[mollipen]

If you don't understand just how much of SH3 revolves thematically around the fact that she's female then I wonder if you even played the game.

Are you saying she's basically a male character because she doesn't have tits and ass busting out everywhere or because she's not constantly squealing and acting like some bizarre parody of 'femininity'? Please, tell me what's masculine about Heather.

Of course I played it, and how much of the game revolves around her being female (which could be argued) has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Silent Hill 1 has Harry. Harry is, really, just a regular guy, and that point is very important to the creation of Silent Hill as a game. Silent Hill is coming out initially perceived by some as a Resident Evil clone, but one of the many factors making it different is that Harry is Joe Average while Resident Evil always presents the player with somebody who is basically a self-contained commando unit. Harry is awkward, he isn't good at fighting, he only really knows how to use common weaponry, but even with all of that his motivation is very specific: he's trying to rescue his daughter. He has clear and realistic motivation for what he does and the lengths he's going to, because he is a father trying to save his child.

Silent Hill 2 has James, and James is, again, just a regular guy. Similar situations to Harry, similar lack of being good at combat or being tough, similar reliance on weaponry an average man could realistically make use of. And, like Harry, he has very specific motivation for going through the hell that awaits him: the belief that he can be reunited with the wife he loves. Where Harry was trying to make sure his child was safe, James is doing the same for his wife. Both logical, both realistic, both portray situations in which a middle-aged man could do the things they did even with the utter horror they are exposed to.

Silent Hill 3 has Heather, who we are told is a teenage girl. Except, unfortunately, she never acts like it. Never once do we see her react to anything going on around her in a way that a teenage girl would realistically act. Never once does she have a realistic motivation for doing what she's doing and being able to be so okay with the world she finds herself in. I know the argument - "but but her motivation was trying to get home / get out!" - but that motivation is lazy, AND if it's all we get she doesn't even act realistically in it. Unlike Harry and James, Heather becomes a Resident Evil character, being able to easily wield and use weaponry that no teenage girl in her position should have any ability to use.

Heather was a character with amazing potential, because we had the chance to see the world of Silent Hill from the viewpoint of a character totally different to (a) what we are used to, and (b) what we had seen previously in the serious. Harry and James had that primal "I'm a guy who has to protect a girl" instinct kick in, and we could understand that as a source of their strength. Here we had the chance to see how somebody totally unprepared for the world of Silent Hill would handle it, and Heather ends up being more of a "man" - in terms of her attitude, what she is capable of, and how she deals with things - than either Harry or James.

I know the other argument that can be brought up is "but it makes sense storyline-wise", but that's BS. There was a chance to really look at the mythos of Silent Hill in a new light, and instead we got a character that is totally unrealistic for what she's supposed to be. Team Silent got lazy, made SH3 more RE-esque, and then just put Heather in there to make it seem like things were totally different this time around.

When the first images of SH3 were coming out, I thought Heather might be (a) older and (b) pregnant. That could make for an AWESOME set-up for a Silent Hill game, because not only could you see the game from a much different perspective, but then you'd also have real and tangible motivation for the main character doing what would be required of them.

My female character isn't acting like an extremely stereotyped female. They're totally male!!!!

This viewpoint is by far the most sexist thing I see every time these arguments come up.

I'm talking about the characters being realistic, not acting like stereotypes. Say whatever you want to say, but a real teenage girl, more likely than not, would not act like Heather acted. Hell, a teenager period would not have acted that way.

And seriously, if you're trying to find somebody to jump on about wanting stereotyped female characters, you picked the wrong person.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

We need more Jewish protagonists. Are there even any?

 

[Jex]

Everyone has gotten hammered and said obnoxious shit but if I did so on an industry podcast related to my job on which i was representing my company, I would be fired and rightfully so. To me its just indicative of a industry that hasnt grown up enough to expect professionalism from its peers

People did it on 1up Yours all the time and pretty much everyone just laughed about it.

 

[thebaroness]

I think I can bring up the civil rights movement without being interpreted as saying that this is somehow as bad as racial segregation; obviously that's not the case, but that doesn't mean it was a bad example for what I was talking about.

And women are perfectly capable of being extraordinarily sexist, not that I'm accusing you of this. I don't think you can particularly separate the issues of lack of racial diversity and the lack of sex diversity; games with human or humanoid protagonists are all too frequently straight white male power fantasies and their audience gets upset when asked to identify with someone other than murderous white linebackers.
I don't play games to identify with the protagonist, but lord knows I've seen plenty of bitching from gamers when they think the protagonist of a game is too female and/or faggy and therefore doesn't fit the bizarre male-power fantasy that they're interested in.

I can agree with you halfway, I just don't think it's as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Hypothetically for sake of peaceful discussion, what is your ideal main character? What would you like to see in a future video game, what would you like to play as? (Don't list already existing characters, but something new that's all your own) Actually that would be a cool discussion all of it's own, to see what people WOULD like to play as.

Personally, I'd like to play as an Indian female sniper in a Borderlands-ish setting with a ton of wallrunning al la Prince of Persia. That would be so sweet...

 

[2San]

I don't play games to identify with the protagonist, but lord knows I've seen plenty of bitching from gamers when they think the protagonist of a game is too female and/or faggy and therefore doesn't fit the bizarre male-power fantasy that they're interested in.

Seems more like a small vocal minority if anything else. If anything if you look at Japanese games you either play with SD characters or androgynous characters. Those are pretty much the best selling games.

 

[george_us]

The majority of gamers are guys because there are few to no protagonists with whom female gamers can identify.

Aren't there more girl gamers than guys? The majority of gamers aren't guys, the majority of gamers who play games in "hardcore" genres like FPS, RTS, Racing, competitive, are guys and I don't think putting female protagonists in games where you're shooting and stabbing people in the face are going to make females want to play those games. I don't believe genres like FPS and the like will ever catch on with females simply because they're not really built for them.

Neither is it about the role of females in videogames.

It's only about how well one publisher thinks games with a female lead will sell. To everybody.

Once again, reading the article will help.

The problem with this is that "everybody" in this case is 18-35 males, which make up a vast majority of the market Activision is going after when making action games.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Silent Hill 3 has Heather, who we are told is a teenage girl. Except, unfortunately, she never acts like it. Never once do we see her react to anything going on around her in a way that a teenage girl would realistically act.

I understand the need for her to act realistically, but I really enjoy characters that don't necessarily act like a stereotype or what is expected of them. I do like how her being female was a non-issue in the game itself.

Kind of like how in RE4, Leon Kennedy makes no mention of his homosexuality and it isn't brought up in the story, because it doesn't even MATTER - it's just a personality trait.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Because she's the epitome of a bad female video game character: a character who, for all intents and purposes, is a male character put into a female character model for shock/gimmick/laziness/etc.

That's ridiculous. What about her isn't female enough for you? Does she have to be stereotypically female to be female to you?

EDIT: Looked at your larger post and I still disagree. Heather was never a "normal" teenager to begin with. Of course she won't react the same way as a normal person would, with the way she's been raised by Harry and considering her background.

 

[Hugbot]

We need more Jewish protagonists. Are there even any?

At least one great one

 

[charsace]

take your pic.

Exception to the rule.

What she is saying is true. Video games do lack diversity in characters and themes.

 

[mollipen]

Kind of like how in RE4, Leon Kennedy makes no mention of his homosexuality and it isn't brought up in the story, because it doesn't even MATTER - it's just a personality trait.

HAH

 

[thebaroness]

When the first images of SH3 were coming out, I thought Heather might be (a) older and (b) pregnant. That could make for an AWESOME set-up for a Silent Hill game, because not only could you see the game from a much different perspective, but then you'd also have real and tangible motivation for the main character doing what would be required of them.

But she was pregnant.

Spoiler

with god.

 

[Littleberu]

Being that most games fall into the action category, how many "action heroine" do you know of, in any type of media? Strangely, the first that came to mind is Lara Croft.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

People did it on 1up Yours all the time and pretty much everyone just laughed about it.

And they are out of business now lol
There are no coincidences. And i think it speaks well to my point that all of those guys got hired elsewhere due to their skill and popularity.

 

[mollipen]

But she was pregnant.

Spoiler

with god.

Well, OKAY, but you know what I mean.

 

[Nirolak]

I'm talking about the characters being realistic, not acting like stereotypes. Say whatever you want to say, but a real teenage girl, more likely than not, would not act like Heather acted. Hell, a teenager period would not have acted that way.

And seriously, if you're trying to find somebody to jump on about wanting stereotyped female characters, you picked the wrong person.

So your argument rotates around her not acting like a teenager.

Well yes, if you want to go with this argument, then I'm perfectly fine with it.

 

[Alts]

...I find the lack of racial diversity more offensive. I'd like to see more exotic main characters.

Your casting of non-whites (I assume, since most game protagonists seem to be white) as "exotic" is problematic in itself. It immediately makes them an Other, which is the problem to begin with.