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No more hardware NPD data for the public

M

MightyHedgehog

Member
Man, unless MS or Ninty spill the beans, we won't be able to see just how spectacular the PS3 is doing right now in NA. It's like trying to get excited about porn running at 64x64. Just not enough detail...not even a bare breast flashed for a few frames and a second or two of distinctly female moaning on a scrambled cable channel worth of detail.
 
P

Psychotext

Member
MightyHedgehog said:
Man, unless MS or Ninty spill the beans, we won't be able to see just how spectacular the PS3 is doing right now in NA. It's like trying to get excited about porn running at 64x64.
Click to expand...
Bah... kids today. When I was young we were lucky to get 64x64 resolution, most of our porn came in 1 bit 32x32 res.
 
C

CTLance

Member
driley said:
[...]Again, I need to be clear that this isn't some new rule that we decided to apply. Media were made aware of this a year ago when we started providing these numbers as a courtesy so that interested reporters could see what was happening during the launch of the Big 3's new platforms. It's that simple.
Click to expand...
What can I say, we've gotten used to the quality and quantity of the data. It's so much fun to speculate and try to recognize trends if the data you base all of it on is considered trustworthy and beyond reproach. Now we'll have yet another layer for disucssions and I'm weary of it already: what hardware numbers are "real"? The margin of error introduced by relying on PR releases and other biased sources is just too great. You can accuse somebody of using "wrong" numbers and thus discredit his forecast without ever tackling his forecast by itself, for example. The resulting discussion will instantly derail the thread and stop any serious "true" discussion.

Basically, it's like this: You guys gave us free crack (for whatever reason) and now that we've become utterly addicted you stop (for whatever reason again, it's inconsequential to me to be honest).

Many posters came to neogaf for the express purpose of partaking in the Sales Age threads (NPD, NPD Canada, Media Create, etc). The gaming and off topic parts are a nice bonus, sure, but there are about one bajillion forums on the net that are doing that too. Of course I'm simplifying things a bit here, but I hope you catch what I'm trying to say. Sales numbers are serious business not only for your business partners, but for a huge interested community all across the net.

Personally it was the draw of grepping through the sales threads and archives, dropping the occasional clueless post while reading our resident Sales gurus comments, graphs and forecasts that got me to join neogaf.
It's like a game in itself. I'm guessing thousands of guys read the Sales threads without logging in, just like I did for the longest time; it's one of neogafs staple "products", so to speak. It's a great tool to judge ... well, just about ANYTHING video game industry related. Others base their stock purchasing decisions on Sales Age threads and their data, a frightening thought for me, but hey, to each his own, eh?

On the other hand, who am I to complain about free stuff. I'm insignificant anyway, a consumer of the fine Sales Age thread content. I'm just fearing ("again", I might add) my source of entertainment will go away if NPD restricts the numbers they release too much for it to be of any worth to our statistics/number crunching guys. Without sufficient data the Sales Age threads will just become another way of fighting the accursed system wars, with opinions valued above facts.

You guys seem to severely underestimate what effect your numbers have on the gaming scene, and what releasing them to the interested public means to many of us. I'm a bit flabberghasted, to be honest, by the repeated naïvety shown in handling this whole thing. We're heavily dependant on you guys and will fight tooth and nail for every single digit of a sales chart. This thing far transcends neogaf, I've seen discussions spring up about it just about everywhere on the net, even here in germany. You guys just lit a match to look inside the gas tank of a random car, at the gas station right next to the highly explosive gas tank no less - and now you're wondering why highly agitated guys with crowbars and pitchforks are charging at you.

Obligatory whine: It would be really nice if we could get accurate hw numbers somehow delayed or something. Release them half a year later or something. Pretty please?

PWEEEEASE?
I know, I know, but I just HAD to try. Sorry.

driley said:
It has nothing to do with anyone contacting and strong-arming us, it has nothing to do with others stealing the information or adjusting its numbers to match those of the industry (funny how folks so quick to ride the First Amendment bandwagon can dish it but not take it), it has nothing to do with planetary alignments, ... nothing!
Click to expand...
Ignore the guys, they're just fixing for the usual system wars stuff or are desperately trying to find a culprit. Nothing you could ever say will be able to erase the sneaking suspicion that the current whipping boy (so to speak) set some gears in motion to hide his shame. It makes sense, too much sense... and thus it'll come up in trolls, honest arguments and snide remarks for years from now on.

driley said:
On a completely different note, can someone explain the cat pics I always see posted on gaf?
Click to expand...
Error E741: english skills not sufficient.
I can point you to the Wikipedia entry but I fear anything I could say would probably be insufficient. Gotta try, though. It's just a nice, fun thing to do once you run out of arguments, deem the thread "finished", or just for fun, really. It also serves to attack/ridicule/etc other posters and/or threads in a playful manner. It mixes things up a bit, since cats are cute, broken english is... cute, and anyway, awww, look at that cute cat doing/saying something stupid. On the other hand, they serve as greatly exaggerated smileys sometime. Refer to the baby cat pic above. ;)
 
B

Busty

Banned
I really don't see this making that much of a difference to the monthly NPD banathons.

How many times in the past have we had the likes of Gamespot report the monthly NPD numbers in a news article before Sonycowboy has gotten home from work?

But, I can seriously see the PS3 benefitting from this in a short term PR manner at least.


CTLance said:
2v1px1h.jpg
Click to expand...


This kitten deals drugs to children.
 
C

CTLance

Member
Busty said:
How many times in the past have we had the likes of Gamespot report the monthly NPD numbers in a news article before Sonycowboy has gotten home from work?
Click to expand...
The publicly available NPD numbers will not include hardware numbers from now on, and while neogaf will still be favoured, the official press releases will be severely gimped in scope and data content in comparison to whet we're used to. If any of the bigger sites will publish illegally acquired data, good for them - on this board we'd likely get banned if we did the same.
This kitten deals drugs to children.
Click to expand...
:lol Fixed with puss 2.0 - better?
 
P

Psychotext

Member
On a depressing note... two of the other gaming forums I visit have had posters posting ******** numbers as fact today. Didn't take as long as I expected. =/
 
C

CTLance

Member
Psychotext said:
On a depressing note... two of the other gaming forums I visit have had posters posting ******** numbers as fact today. Didn't take as long as I expected. =/
Click to expand...
I'm surprised it took that long, really. Nature abhors the vacuum. If there are no NPD numbers around, any numbers will do, as long as they're uttered with enough confidence. Herd mentality, mooo.
2gtnk12.jpg


OT, but... wtf, there's a LOLCODE programming language? :lol

Code: 
HAI
CAN HAS STDIO?
VISIBLE "HAI WORLD!"
KTHXBYE
Damn you, wikipedia. DAMN YOUUUUUU~~~
 
T

titiklabingapat

Member
Courtesy of Next-gen.biz
NPD’s decision to limit the industry stats it releases is bad for consumers and bad for the industry.

Image When the NPD Group began releasing monthly videogame market information to the media late last year, it sated a long-standing thirst for detailed, reliable data. The flow of data has fundamentally altered the interactions among analysts, consumers, and the media. It is difficult to see the changes as anything but positive for everyone involved.

Now NPD will reduce the data it releases, and in doing so it will create an information vacuum that will diminish the level of discourse in our media and our community. Certainly it may choose to use its data as it wishes, but no one should be surprised at the disappointment that NPD's scaled back community engagement will create.

Filling the Void

The reports that NPD sells to its customers are extremely valuable. Using its own confidential retail sources and proprietary methods, the group compiles extensive figures on each videogame, console, handheld, and accessory. There is literally no other source for such detailed information about the American videogame market.

Before the monthly media releases, NPD had to contend with leaks that ranged from a few select data points to entire hardware and software reports. When NPD engaged the videogame community – through the media – demand for those leaks diminished. Instead of the leaks filling the void of information, NPD did the job itself, and in the process they actually reduced the spread of leaked data.

The Educated Consumer

What no one really understood last year was how repeated data releases would alter our world. Previously analysts had released small bits of data, explained the market, and made predictions. Occasionally the publishers and hardware manufacturers would publish press releases with market data – data which obviously showed their products in a positive light.

During most of this year, however, the community and media have been empowered to analyze the data and make their own judgments. As a neutral source of data, NPD enabled the rise of a class of homegrown analysts. On forums and blogs and websites (like this one), these writers could develop their own observations and cite reliable numbers to back up their conclusions. Instead of trading in raw data, the videogame community began trading in data-backed observation and insight. In short, the consumers began to self-educate.

Back to the Dark Ages

The reduced NPD data releases are guaranteed to produce more leaks, poorer independent community discussion, and a less informed videogame consumer. Regardless of NPD's data releases, the broad contours of the industry will always be visible, but a deeper understanding of smaller but essential trends – like the impact of pricing strategies and how software drives hardware sales – will be lost.

Devil in the Details

To NPD the community backlash must seem puzzling. After all, it’s been giving away free data for almost a year – where's the gratitude?

Perhaps without realizing it, NPD has fashioned itself as a new kind of power within the industry. It had clout before, but its station rose over the past year. The NPD Group earned that power from the consumers. We recognize that their data provides an essential balance against the spin of press releases.

It is possible that the limited data that NPD plans to release each month will suffice to keep the leaks mostly in check. It is even possible that hardware manufacturers and software publishers will provide enough data in monthly press releases to fill in some blanks. And the paid market analysts will always give small bits of data with their pronouncements.

All of that misses the point.

The balance that NPD has struck in the past year has been just right, and its place in our industry has risen accordingly. Its limited public releases have satisfied the needs of the public. At the same time, the exhaustive subscription reports it sells are not compromised and continue to meet the needs of publishers and manufacturers.

Look at the good that its balanced data program has achieved in the past year. Why step back? And why now?

Most likely, publishers have squawked because their failures are now open to much more scrutiny. Publishers don’t like to be reminded about their failures, but especially not by the very people who pay their wages, the educated, loyal; and active consumer.

NPD’s move is, of course a step backwards. Openness is better for publishers and developers as well as for consumers. It cannot be good for publishers to hide behind their mistakes.

It's also bad for the business as a whole - the movie business releases its stats every Monday and consumers follow these numbers to the benefit of Hollywood as a whole (talking about product is good for sales, on the whole). This is perfectly possible to do in the games biz but discouraged by publishers who are frightened to death that a sunny weekend will screw their share price for a week or two.

Of course what will happen is what happened before. Journalists and increasingly powerful bloggers and forumites will rely on leaks, which inevitably distort the picture (the person leaking always has something to gain) and enrage NPD. If NPD or the publishers think they can stop information moving about, they're in for a surprise. All that happens now is that information will not be as good. Is that good for the business?
Click to expand...

Next-gen.biz's rather lengthy analysis. For those too lazy to read, the gist of the article is basically telling NPD that they're burning the bridges of goodwill that they've established in the past year with the gaming media and gaming consumers.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7829&Itemid=2
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
titiklabingapat said:
We recognize that their data provides an essential balance against the spin of press releases.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the point this is all about.
Now we´re back to the dark stone age of guesstimating and wondering if the latest PR was just another blatant lie.
 
T

titiklabingapat

Member
"The balance that NPD has struck in the past year has been just right, and its place in our industry has risen accordingly. Its limited public releases have satisfied the needs of the public. At the same time, the exhaustive subscription reports it sells are not compromised and continue to meet the needs of publishers and manufacturers."



My favorite part. NPD got greedy if they're doing this to protect the money coming in :(
 
C

CTLance

Member
titiklabingapat said:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7829&Itemid=2
Click to expand...
Nice. Although I'm tempted to troll the .biz TLD the article is well written and to-the-point. We shouldn't forget however that there are always two sides to a coin.
Three, actually.
I hope NPD was fully aware of these issues when they made the decision.

We'll see how it goes though. For now I only see one winner, and he has three letters in his nick and was banned from neogaf quite a while ago.
2s0mivs.jpg
 
Xisiqomelir

Xisiqomelir

Member
Jonnyram said:
That doesn't change the fact that:
a) he's stealing data and passing it off as his own work
b) he's making money out of it, and taking his users for a ride in the process
Click to expand...

Those fall under "numerous and varied". And really, I was bashing NGW more than I was boosting ioi.
 
P

pollo

Banned
What the hell is the issue here?

You guys expect something for nothing?

You want numbers? Then pay.

You don't pay you don't get them.

Stop crying.
 
C

CTLance

Member
RiskyChris said:
Read the next gen.biz article.
Click to expand...
He couldn't be arsed to read the thread (or participate in any recent Sales Age threads for that matter), how can you expect him to read a random article? =P ;)
 
P

pollo

Banned
RiskyChris said:
Read the next gen.biz article.
Click to expand...

Still reads like bitter tears to me. What bridges? Do you suddenly become less informed just because you don't know how much X game is selling over Y game?

"Buh..buh information will now be in the hands of a few biased bloggers!"

Sorry I don't buy it. Just because the NPD refuses to release their product for free doesn't mean the collective knowledge of gaming denizens suddenly drops. Gaf can always smell a rat- you guys are video game nerds for christ sake! You were bullied and left out of the cool kids group in high school and now you take any welcoming message with a slice of cynnicism.

It'll be a long time before any company pulls a fast one on you guys. Sure without NPD numbers you're lacking concrete information to back up your conjectures - but I believe the intelligence of GAFfers will be able to sniff out any PR type bullshit that a company lays out.
 
V

Vaandaviii

Member
Nintards am cry. For once they got the victory on their hands, and now we must start to talk about graphics and games again j/k :lol
 
S

Segata Sanshiro

Member
pollo said:
Still reads like bitter tears to me. What bridges? Do you suddenly become less informed just because you don't know how much X game is selling over Y game?

"Buh..buh information will now be in the hands of a few biased bloggers!"

Sorry I don't buy it. Just because the NPD refuses to release their product for free doesn't mean the collective knowledge of gaming denizens suddenly drops. Gaf can always smell a rat- you guys are video game nerds for christ sake! You were bullied and left out of the cool kids group in high school and now you take any welcoming message with a slice of cynnicism.

It'll be a long time before any company pulls a fast one on you guys. Sure without NPD numbers you're lacking concrete information to back up your conjectures - but I believe the intelligence of GAFfers will be able to sniff out any PR type bullshit that a company lays out.
Click to expand...
The more intelligent GAFers will be able to sniff it out pollo, but without having concrete numbers to point to, there's little hope of convincing the less intelligent GAFers that fuel the flames of idiocy around here.
 
J

JoshuaJSlone

Member
MrNyarlathotep said:
When you say "Who's the only company?", I don't think 360 sales are anything to particularly brag about given its trending below the original Xbox
Click to expand...
Europe is harder to speak for, but this isn't true of US sales, Japanese sales, or worldwide shipments.
 
R

RiskyChris

Banned
pollo said:
Still reads like bitter tears to me. What bridges? Do you suddenly become less informed just because you don't know how much X game is selling over Y game?
Click to expand...

The article you read sounds like bitter tears?

Jesus Christ.
 
V

Vagabundo

Member
Code: 
HAI
CAN HAS STDIO?
I HAS A NPDz
IM IN YR LOOP
   VISIBLE "I WANT NPDz"
   IZ NPDz "HW" O RLY? 
       AWSUM THX
            KTHX
       O NOES
            VISIBLE ";_;"
IM OUTTA YR LOOP
KTHXBYE

I'm still learning LOLcode...
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
Arsenal said:
Prior to Nov 2006, NPD data would get leaked unofficially by insiders. Not just the numbers that are widely available either - we would see lots of detailed data on software and everything.

When you would type in November NPD into Google, the first hit was the youtube vid advertising GAF as the only source of NPD data... thats when the shit hit the fan. NPD stepped in and started threatening. But then they cut a deal with GAF - Sonycowboy became a mod and now creates the officially sanctioned NPD threads you see now.

But the data we receive now is far less than we used to get. Some of those NPD insiders moved on to other websites since they got banned here as part of the deal with GAF not to allow those numbers on the forums. I'm sure its purely a coincidence that those other websites are now banned from being mentioned on GAF as well. When NPD says jump, we ask how high.
Click to expand...

So which websites still display the full/detailed NPD data?
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
titiklabingapat said:
Courtesy of Next-gen.biz


Next-gen.biz's rather lengthy analysis. For those too lazy to read, the gist of the article is basically telling NPD that they're burning the bridges of goodwill that they've established in the past year with the gaming media and gaming consumers.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7829&Itemid=2
Click to expand...
They nailed it, accross the board.

Of course what will happen is what happened before. Journalists and increasingly powerful bloggers and forumites will rely on leaks, which inevitably distort the picture (the person leaking always has something to gain) and enrage NPD. If NPD or the publishers think they can stop information moving about, they're in for a surprise. All that happens now is that information will not be as good. Is that good for the business?
Click to expand...
 
Xisiqomelir

Xisiqomelir

Member
That next-gen.biz article is absolute perfection. It hits every pertinent point, from the increased opacity of the market to the superior informational release in the mature entertainment industries. I urge you all once again to contact NPD civilly and coherently. Perhaps we may have an effect yet.

eclipze said:
I never once defended any sites numbers. I wasn't even there for the numbers, I was there because it was a nice little niche forum with members that were fun to debate with.
Click to expand...

You know, it's fine to admit that you were happy to be part of a small community of like-minded xbots. Where the implementation fell down is the part where the administration attempted to pass itself off as competent and honest, and where the site attempted to pass itself off as anything but a joke.

eclipze said:
The difference between me and you was that even though neither of us were there for the numbers, you were there for mocking everyone, and I was there for honest debate.
Click to expand...

Okay Mr Honest Debate. :lol

I believe I still have more stickies in your biggest forum while banned than you do, though.
 
H

Hammer24

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
If NPD or the publishers think they can stop information moving about, they're in for a surprise. All that happens now is that information will not be as good. Is that good for the business?
Click to expand...

Well, the NPD group probably just created a new job vacancy in their company.
They´ll surely need a new fulltime PR spokesperson do deny/confirm the numerous varying reports that will undoubtedly surface.
 
C

CTLance

Member
Jirotrom said:
that really sucks, there will be a leak, but that really does suck, why is it they are being so secretive... sorry haven't followed the thread.
Click to expand...
Hook, line, and sinker. :D
Segata, that was evil. :lol

Edit: Oh no you don't. I caught your stealthedit. Now squirm! ;)
 
J

Jirotrom

Member
Tabris said:
It's called media create and I'll spoil it for you, the game bombed.
Click to expand...
If it did then Japan officially hates console gaming for good. Portables are the present and future there, because NSMB doesn't even come close to the greatness of SMG.

CTLance said:
Hook, line, and sinker. :D
Segata, that was evil. :lol
Click to expand...
simple mistake, you got me sega boy. I'll just kick your ass in some VF5

not really
 
S

Segata Sanshiro

Member
Jirotrom said:
If it did then Japan officially hates console gaming for good. Portables are the present and future there, because NSMB doesn't even come close to the greatness of SMG.


simple mistake, you got me sega boy. I'll just kick your ass in some VF5

not really
Click to expand...
Is selling worse than Mario Sunshine bad?

Join the Media-Create Fun Club Thread today!
 
T

Tabris

Member
Jirotrom said:
If it did then Japan officially hates console gaming for good. Portables are the present and future there, because NSMB doesn't even come close to the greatness of SMG.
Click to expand...

You've played SMG already or you just assuming that? cause NSMB was pretty damn awesome.
 
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