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[Platy]

I was reading this article about Marvel vs Capcom 3 Simple Mode and i was thinking ... what Gaf thinks about those noob friendly ways to play ?

I guess that it begun with Capcom looking at Smash bros sucess and creating stuff like the GC-Ism (i heard xbox EO-ism is like that too) from Gamecube's Capcom vs Snk 2 : E.O. in wich all the specials were made by pushing the yellow stick in one direction ... so when you ask for the command list you have :

In Tatsunoko vs Capcom they made an Easy mode that transformed it in smash bros, with a special button and commands like ->

= Hadouken

+

= Shoryuken

+

= Tatsumaki

+

= Shinku hadouken

And in games like Dead or Alive and Super Street Fighter 4 for 3ds seems to keep with this ... with trailers of Dead or Alive showing a touchable command list and Street4 with 4 bindable buttons.

So ... what you guys think about all this ?
It helps the sales ?
The "casuals" will buy the games ?
This will change of the fact that the biggest challenge will be knowing when to use a special instead of how to execute it ?

 

[Monroeski]

Can't be too noob friendly of a mode with all the names in Japanese.

 

[tiff]

All the crazy combos were one of the barriers between and fighting games, so I like it, at least.

 

[Mr_Elysia]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

 

[KamenSenshi]

Don't particularly care for it but as long as they don't start making games with that in mind to the detriment of the normal style its fine. It might help some people try those games who wouldn't have otherwise.

 

[ElFly]

EO mode in CvS2 was terrible and unplayable. Useful I guess for some combo videos, but little else. It was super annoying that it was the default option, and you had to select it out every time you picked a team.

Anyway, just grab one of tekkens, select the capoeira dude and button mash away.

 

[Unknown One]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

Tekken :lol

 

[Skilletor]

As a tourney player, I don't care. Whatever it takes to get more casuals to buy more copies so they can make more fighters. So long as the simple stuff remains an option and doesn't becoome default.

It doesn't hurt me that there people out there playing a simple mode, and if i'm losing to it, then I just need more practice.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

Simple controls does not = No depth.

I would welcome more fighters using the Smash Bros "direction + button" approach. It's a LOT more accessible. New IPs though, not shoehorned into Street Fighter or something.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

I'm sure opponent prediction, frame advantage, and well everything competitive players use to gain an edge over each other should be plenty left.

 

[Plywood]

Tekken :lol

Oh shit.

 

[Sharkington]

Fighting games aren't as intimidating as people make them out to be. It's like they think you can't pick up the controller at all unless you're willing to invest the time to be a tournament-level player, and that's not true. I suck, all my friends suck, and we have a fucking blast playing against each other.

If noobs play against other noobs, every fighting game is automatically noob friendly.

 

[Drkirby]

With simpler controls I feel it leaves more room for high level play, instead oh having to worry about rotating the stick in just the right way. What it does allow though is for bad players to just spam special attacks, but if that is all it takes to win ether the game isn't that balanced to start or you need more practice.

 

[DR2K]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

The depth isn't in the controls, it's in the mechanics.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I don't know. Mortal Kombat is pretty Noob friendly and it sold very well. In fact one of the characters was even named "Noob" so you can't get much more friendly than that.

 

[Oli]

With simpler controls I feel it leaves more room for high level play, instead oh having to worry about rotating the stick in just the right way.

In my personal opinion, complicated controls should not equate to depth. Controls should always be accessible and easy to learn.

But then again, the only fighting game I like is Smash Bros. so I'm not entirely qualified to speak on the subject. Just not a genre I "get".

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Fighting games aren't as intimidating as people make them out to be. It's like they think you can't pick up the controller at all unless you're willing to invest the time to be a tournament-level player, and that's not true. I suck, all my friends suck, and we have a fucking blast playing against each other.

If noobs play against other noobs, every fighting game is automatically noob friendly.

Until you go online in SSF4 and fools are comboing into FADCs into Ultras all over your face with their leet arcade sticks, and bam, urge to play is gone.

But yeah, noob v noob is fun.

 

[Teknopathetic]

I've never found fighting game controls particularly difficult, so the idea of EO-ism, GC-ism whatever controls seems pointless. Seems like it's only desired by people who want to be as good as people who play more than them.

 

[Castor Krieg]

The moment fighting games turned into frame-by-frame spreadsheets is the time fighting games started to die same as SHMUPs. Capcom is trying to make fighting games more accessible, same with CAVE and their Novice Mode for SHMUPs. Kudos to them for that, the more people play the better.

 

[remz]

In my personal opinion, complicated controls should not equate to depth. Controls should always be accessible and easy to learn.

But then again, the only fighting game I like is Smash Bros. so I'm not entirely qualified to speak on the subject. Just not a genre I "get".

The controls are easy to learn. Buttons do attacks, buttons + directions do other attacks. It's stringing these attacks together and using them effectively that's the hard part.

Blazblue has a beginner mode in CS that allows you to combo by just mashing one button and maps all your special moves to another.

I don't like it, it feels awkward having your character play itself. :|

 

[The Technomancer]

Well as a casual fighting game player I certainly wish the games were less dependent on arbitrary combos. But for some reason I'm always derided for believing that the greater the barrier between intention and behavior, the less strategic the gameplay, as it becomes more about physical reflexes and less about mental maneuvering.

Then again I mostly enjoy Smash and BlazBlue. (although not easy-mode BlazBlue)

 

[Diablohead]

Tekken :lol

Hit the ball out of the park with that one. :lol

 

[Skilletor]

The moment fighting games turned into frame-by-frame spreadsheets is the time fighting games started to die same as SHMUPs. Capcom is trying to make fighting games more accessible, same with CAVE and their Novice Mode for SHMUPs. Kudos to them for that, the more people play the better.

Funny you say this, since i see so any people complain about SF4s 'needless' complexities.

Well as a casual fighting game player I certainly wish the games were less dependent on arbitrary combos. But for some reason I'm always derided for believing that the greater the barrier between intention and behavior, the less strategic the gameplay, as it becomes more about physical reflexes and less about mental maneuvering.

Then again I mostly enjoy Smash and BlazBlue. (although not easy-mode BlazBlue)

Hmmm? Arc games are entirely dependent upon such combos.

 

[Forkball]

The C-stick mode in Capcom vs. SNK 2 is hilarious. Some characters have so many special moves that they take up like 1% of the pie chart. I've played this a few times and it's crazy to just do random special moves at such a rapid pace, I'd recommend it for some laughs.

And isn't that control scheme for TvC only with the Wiimote+nunchuck? I only use the classic controller for the game, so I didn't know more simplistic controls were available. The game is already fairly easy to learn compared to other fighting games. There are only three attack buttons and many of the inputs for special moves are simple and are common between many characters.

And I don't know why there aren't more SSB ripoffs. A Marvel or DC (or Marvel vs. DC) game with the SSB engine? That would kick ass.

 

[jeremy1456]

With the Dead or Alive games once you learn the counter system you can pretty much master the game... so like two hours of playing?

Tekken doesn't really take much skill but it's still more difficult to master than DOA which makes Itagaki cry.

 

[benny_a]

I welcome this, as I can appreciate the fighting games as a spectator game every time EVO rolls around, but I'm unable to make cool combos and attacks and such in most of the games that are played at Evo.

That's why I like Mortal Kombat so much as the attacks are much easier to pull off. I also liked Tatsunoko vs. Capcom on the Wii because I could pull off cool looking stuff without effort. I can't do that in Street Fighter 2 and up. And because I only play them when I have people over in between our "main" games, lower barrier to entry is a big bonus for me.

 

[Drkirby]

They aren't that bad, but they are rather poor for their origin. I rarely see a fighting game arcade cabinet with the combos listed on them in the US, there is no way the player would know what they are ahead of time. I say stream line it as much as you can without giving up available choices, all characters using the same input for their moves is a great idea that should be adopted more.

 

[scotcheggz]

As a tourney player, I don't care. Whatever it takes to get more casuals to buy more copies so they can make more fighters. So long as the simple stuff remains an option and doesn't becoome default.

It doesn't hurt me that there people out there playing a simple mode, and if i'm losing to it, then I just need more practice.

Basically this. Honestly, I'd even be up for adding this kind of mode into more fighters since I don't have any RL friends that play fighters. They like them but just mash and nothing comes out, if they could do this kind of stuff, local MP for me personally would probably be more fun; I appreciate some might not like that idea though.

Edit: I meant to say like P1 picks normal mode, P2 picks simple mode. That would be cool, I could play normal and my fighter challenged friends could play simple and we could have a blast.

 

[Skilletor]

With the Dead or Alive games once you learn the counter system you can pretty much master the game... so like two hours of playing?

I'd destroy anybody who thinks this way.

 

[Sohter.Nura]

It's good if it's a mode in the game and if it gets more people to play fighting games

 

[Hugbot]

The depth isn't in the controls, it's in the mechanics.

It's both. And a certain amount of complication is necessary for a wider variety of moves and therefore a deeper system.

 

[sixteen-bit]

If it gets more people into the game, great, but Beginner modes and EO-ism or whatever usually don't end up being the best ways to play competitively.

 

[jeremy1456]

I'd destroy anybody who thinks this way.

I've heard that a couple of times.

Outcome is always the same. :lol

 

[DR2K]

With the Dead or Alive games once you learn the counter system you can pretty much master the game... so like two hours of playing?

Tekken doesn't really take much skill but it's still more difficult to master than DOA which makes Itagaki cry.

What if I master grabbing and CH launchers?

Both Tekken and DOA are very difficult to master.

 

[Teknopathetic]

It's also worth noting that moves are balanced around their difficulty to execute.

 

[Skilletor]

I've heard that a couple of times.

Outcome is always the same. :lol

Skillzilla81 on xbl. Let's play doa4.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

It's both. And a certain amount of complication is necessary for a wider variety of moves and therefore a deeper system.

4 face buttons + 4 "tilt" direction = a possible 16 moves

4 face buttons + 4 "smash" directions = a possible 16 moves.

4 face buttons neutral = 4 more moves

4 face buttons + 2 shoulder modifiers = a possible 22 more moves

+ jumping, and throws

etc. etc. etc. You can make a deep as hell fighter using a variation on the Smash Bros system. The depth then would come from learning when to apply these moves, and how to combo them instead of worrying about the inputs being lightening fast, and pinpoint perfect.

 

[DR2K]

I've heard that a couple of times.

Outcome is always the same. :lol

You end up looking like you know nothing about DOA?

 

[Ezalc]

As a person who has trouble even pulling off a hadouken I love this. I have a friend who plays at tournament level. And if I ever play a fighter against him it's basically the worst time ever because I might as well just stand there and let him hit me. With controls like this at least I feel like I have some sort of a chance, I still don't but hey it's something. Also finally being able to pull off the special moves feels awesome.

Noob modes like this are a good thing, it makes it more accessible for those who won't be playing the game everyday practicing the moves all the time. Plus I feel like it makes it more fun, but that's probably because I suck at these games.

 

[DR2K]

Skillzilla81 on xbl. Let's play doa4.

Careful there, he mastered the counter system. :lol

 

[To Far Away Times]

If you can get a new player into that "second level" of fighting games (using strategy, spacing, wake up, mind games, ect.) that they wouldn't have reached due to struggling with the controls, then I think its great.

 

[Skilletor]

Careful there, he mastered the counter system. :lol

Damn, that's true. My strategy, then, will be to taunt and jump over dinosaurs.

 

[Oli]

The controls are easy to learn. Buttons do attacks, buttons + directions do other attacks. It's stringing these attacks together and using them effectively that's the hard part.

Blazblue has a beginner mode in CS that allows you to combo by just mashing one button and maps all your special moves to another.

I don't like it, it feels awkward having your character play itself. :|

Well I don't mean to say that the work should be done for you. Just that it shouldn't conflict with logic. Button combo strings are not really something that exist in any other genre, except derivatives of fighting games I guess.

Again, I really don't play the genre much, so I'm not going to sit here and say it shouldn't exist. I know people love it for what it is. But I know I'm not really going to jump in myself until that learning curve is eased a bit.

 

[KevinCow]

4 face buttons + 4 "tilt" direction = a possible 16 moves

4 face buttons + 4 "smash" directions = a possible 16 moves.

4 face buttons neutral = 4 more moves

4 face buttons + 2 shoulder modifiers = a possible 22 more moves

+ jumping, and throws

etc. etc. etc. You can make a deep as hell fighter using a variation on the Smash Bros system. The depth then would come from learning when to apply these moves, and how to combo them instead of worrying about the inputs being lightening fast, and pinpoint perfect.

But that would be different from how fighting games have worked for the past 20 years, and fighting game fans can't have that.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"But that would be different from how fighting games have worked for the past 20 years, and fighting game fans can't have that."

It (and you) completely ignores the point I made about moves being balanced around their difficulty to execute. There's more to a characters moveset than just "they have X amount of moves." This concept seems lost on you both.

 

[Skilletor]

But that would be different from how fighting games have worked for the past 20 years, and fighting game fans can't have that.

Well, since there are all if these people whining about accessibility of all these fighters made the past twenty years, why wouldn't these people purchase such a novel idea?

 

[Mr_Elysia]

The depth then would come from learning when to apply these moves, and how to combo them instead of worrying about the inputs being lightening fast, and pinpoint perfect.

That's valid. I think it becomes a different game then, but valid nonetheless.

 

[Nemo]

Press select

 

[Net_Wrecker]

"But that would be different from how fighting games have worked for the past 20 years, and fighting game fans can't have that."

It (and you) completely ignores the point I made about moves being balanced around their difficulty to execute. There's more to a characters moveset than just "they have X amount of moves." This concept seems lost on you both.

It's not lost on me. Again, my point was to take the emphasis OFF of HOW to do the move, and put it more on WHY you should do it, or WHEN. Instead of the input being complex because it's a powerful move, you use other drawbacks such as long start up animations, long whiff animations, and w/e else you can think of. There are ways to balance a move other than having the input be more complex.

 

[Glix]

Making the inputs easier doesn't make a fighting game more noob friendly. Its all about the system.

I would say the DOA are good fighting games that are also noob friendly.